Freepoint Commodities vs Hartree Partners
Maybe too precise a question, but does anyone have a view on these two firms and how they compare to each other? Interested in particular in culture, investment style, compensation and general career prospects, etc..
This would be for the energy trading groups in the NE.
Happy to speak via dm if easier. Thank you.
Both great. All depends on the product
you can dm. i've worked at freepoint and my father works there lol
Thank you. I was asking about the oil division. If you can elaborate that’d be great.
not helpful feedback...but can't go wrong with either one. Take the more generous comp, VaR, P&L split
Agree with others. Both are very similar in how they do things and comes down to who you like to work with and var. P&L spilt should be pretty damn close, since Hartree is at 15% last few years (prev 10-15) and Freepoint has been at 15% for a while now.
Thank you. I had the misconception that Freepoint follows the more traditional trading model (like Trafi, Glencore etc), whereas Hartree is more akin to a fund style investing (perhaps a bit like Mercuria). It sounds like that’s incorrect though?
What does this even mean?
Okay I assume, you mean “traditional merchant style trading”, akin to stuff you read in Javier Bias books. Versus more of a pod style and risk book format like a MLP.
Way world looks today roughly. Glencore has easiest access to capital cause of their coal/mining business but also DTD they watch their risk. Trafi has most loose risk and likes to take biggest bets when they believe in it. Mercuria is the most “merchanty” of most shops as even though their “head of risk” is from GS and they limit var, drawdowns and double down on trades just goes to the founders to make a decision…so drawdowns are just red flags for risk.
Freepoint and Hartree both run risk a lot tighter than the other shops. Both also are well known to prefer “tariff trading”, meaning you have a physical edge that can actually be arb’d repeatedly in the market. Both provide the most upfront cash payout of the phys firms (lower retentions). Both are very transparent with book costs. Hartree provides more capital somewhat to new traders and expects a 5-8x return. Freepoint repeatedly is mentioned to have the best culture and people only leave there usually cause they cannot get more capital versus other traders at the firm. Hartree likewise has very low retention and basically as long as trader covers their costs let them do their thing, so many people like that culture.
Overall though the other merchants for sure take more risk and the guys at the top make the decisions.
15% seems incredible! Would similar PnL splits be seen at a major? Any numbers for Vitol/Mercuria/Glencore?
Cheers :)
No such thing as %spilts at a major they pay a %salary depending on level of seniority. Once you run a desk and do well, expect close to 4% (10years+ in). Certain traders at places like BP exception.
Vitol is 10%, but you can get to 15% with some performance plan.
Glencore is at 15%, Mercuria would be 10-12% (though can go near 15% in some years). Mercuria only spec traders make that though as if you are more of a asset optimizer/lease-owner you get closer to 3-5%, say they manage a ton of crude storage well Daniel is very hands on and probably wanted to own the storage himself anyways. That said if you bring in new business/relationships that would be more towards spec trading.
Hartree/Freepoint as mentioned if you cover your costs do not care who owns the asset/relationship for most part. Like if all you doing is park&loans using their capital but making money every year that is no difference than spec trading to them.
Nothing Can beat the the legendary names in the Hartree's uk power desk.
Apparently every guy that trades Europe this year at a fund is a legendary name
I meant that Hartree person's last name was suppose to be the buzz word, but also wouldnt disagree with what you said
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