What is the Shell Trader Development program like? Does everyone end up in trading roles? How does it compare to BPs program? What does progression look like vs trading at a BB?
What about exit opportunities to hedge funds? Is it better to have experience in commodities trading at a BB or an oil company?
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Have known several people who did this.
1. There is no guarantee. People can fail the tests and be kicked out, at which point they find jobs elsewhere at Shell or leave.
2. The career path is to trade (develop relationships, find more volumes, speculate, optimize assets) or manage traders.
3. Physical trading is not the same as financial trading. You may speculate on financials, however hedge funds are an uncommon exit (that can end up backfiring). This is a possible route, but really, this is not well-trodden in the way that IB to PE might be.
4. Hedge funds in commodities hire from both banks and physical traders. (Though many physical traders end up failing because they don’t have the skillset to actually speculate on paper consistently- but this applies to bank traders too)
Why do you say they end up failing? Do most ppl that make the switch end up having to go back to a physical shop or do they just leave the business. When you say hedge funds do you mean like Citadel that has some physical or a hedge fund with no physical presence?
I can only speak to the way that I’ve seen some physical oil guys speculate, which is not research or data driven or risk controlled, and ends up not being repeatable. They do fine in Shell or BP with structural pnl and information flow, which can aid paper positions/hide the problems around the trade idea generation process, but when they do a true zero sum spec job with no assets and no proprietary information, it is hard to survive. It’s also not an easy game to play. There is a reason why oil trading was so unfavored at hedge funds until very recently (which are rushing into it as a backwards looking fad hoping to capitalize on situations that will not repeat, in my view). Even really successful guys have can have huge drawdowns (see Andurand this year) which will get you fired at a multi manager.
1) How does comp compare at a BB to Physical trading?
2) When you say fail the tests and be kicked out, what % of TDP program candidates end up in a Trading position at Shell?
I don’t think there is a quota for TDP pass rates, if people didn’t learn or aren’t suited for the job, they happen to not advance forward. After that, they end up in a corporate function or try their luck at a smaller shop.
I have no numbers for the banks but 5-10 years in you CAN certainly make 7 figures at an oil company.
What does progression look like vs trading at a BB?
A lot longer. At a place like Shell you are buying, shipping, and selling actual physical commodities. You have to understand every single thing a trader at a bank understands about derivatives plus everything that goes into the physical market. How does crude with an API of 28 act in the refinery vs crude with an API of 33? If you need to meet flash point and viscosity specs for a diesel cargo how are you going to make it happen? Is the blending you need to do a linear or non-linear blend? What do the logistics of the colonial pipeline look like? How do nominations work? What does the pipeline and storage network look like in the Permian and how do those assets interact with yours? What are the nuances all of the assets in the Cushing complex? I could go all day on things like that.
is this really true? kinda find it hard to believe that people at banks trading paper don't have more derivatives knowledge than their physical counterparts
The only thing I would think a trader at a bank would know better would be microstructure and order flow since they are the ones making markets. There is a reason BP and Shell are considered 'trading university.' Having said that, someone specializing in options would probably know more about options than a physical trader. When I wrote derivatives I really should have said futures.
Hello! I am currently in my final year and applied for Shell Graduate Program. I cant remember seeing any part of the roles open for TDP, although my main and initial goal is to get be an energy trader. Do you know if someone through the Graduate program can get into TDP internally of there was a seperate application you did for this Trading Program?
If you are looking at Shell TDP get the idea out of your head about hedge funds, for at least 7-10 years. As mentioned many people fail TDP if do not like it or fit the culture, but the vast majority of roles and speed you through teaches much different skills than a hedge fund would want.
BP, is a tough one to say since their program has been established a lot longer and you can jump to sr trader faster there at times. While Shell uses the TDP to backfill a lot of junior talent they lose to merchants. Shell just no longer pays up for junior talent like merchants/BBs/etc..
Hi all. I have a phone interview coming up for shell's tdp. Does anyone have a ballpack figure of what they pay (base + bonus)? Thinking whether it's worth considering the programme seriously as the opportunity cost could be big.
What are your other options?
currently surfing the quant/trading/analytics space, but I'm interested in commodity and oil trading. I have a background in engineering/fin engineering and have worked on the buyside for c. 4 years
Likely 150-250 all in while you are TDP
250k/year? Or you'll make a total of 250k by the time TDP is over?
Is that USD eqv? Does it vary across locations? What is the breakdown between base and bonus?
Hi mate. Did you have your phone interview? How did it go? I’m also in the tdp interviews for London office. Let’s keep in touch! Best of luck
Hey there. No, not yet.. When is yours? Let's keep in touch for sure. Good luck!
Could someone throw guesstimates for shell GDP, TDP comp and BP equivalents?
Bumping
PM me
I am in Shell TDP now. It is very rigorous, and you rotate across different functions refineries, operations, analyst and trading roles for 2 to 3 years. Ultimately, the end goal is to get you to the trader role unless deem not a good fit. There are stage tests after every rotation and you need pass them to get to the next rotation.
For the TDP interviews, I recommend you to get creative on solutions, be logical in explanations, stay firm in recommendations and brush up on your mental multiplication tables..
What I heard
Shell TDP pass rate 70-75%
Shell TGP pass rate 10%
BP pass rate 10-30%
Comp varies across locations
Does the US comp above in the thread seem reasonable from what you've seen in the program?
"Likely 150-250 all in while you are TDP"
What is the Shell TGP?
They also have a graduate program for new college grads (TGP is for new grads, TDP is typically for people with a few years of experience). I don't know too much about TGP aside from hearing that one or two people over the years were so good that they became traders at age 24/25.
Hello! I am currently in my final year and applied for Shell Graduate Program. I cant remember seeing any part of the roles open for TDP, although my main and initial goal is to get be an energy trader. Do you know if someone through the Graduate program can get into TDP internally of there was a seperate application you did for this Trading Program?
I did a couple internships in this type of role. One was on a trading floor for a utility holding company, the other was for a commodities research firm. Was able to use those experiences to show my interest in the energy and power space to land a full time IB analyst role in a P&U coverage group.
But as for what people in the FT trading program roles end up doing, some go to be consultants for commodities funds, others end up working in the commodities groups at BB like GS and MS. Some work in the operations groups of commodity platforms. Some may go back to get their MBA. So you are pigeon holed into the commodities space, but on the other hand, if you start to become really knowledgeable in this industry (bonus points if you specialize in one specific type of commodity like LNG or power), you can make the jump to different types of firms. The only one you may not be able to get into would be principle investing (i.e. acquiring actual infrastructure assets like natgas plants, solar/wind assets, etc.)
I can only offer an answer to your second question, which is not everyone gets offered a trading role at the end of the TDP, because not everyone passes the final assessment.
what is the final assessment about?
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