Ballin’ on the Green- How important is golf in banking and business?
I’ve always heard people in the business world say golf is a great sport for business and deal making. It’s not an overly rough or physically demanding sport (which is not saying it’s easy – it’s probably one of the most challenging sports in the world) and lends it itself to being played by all ages. That being said, ever since I started working full-time I’ve noticed a lot of “important meetings” and “client appointments” take place “over a couple of holes”. Now I’m sure most analysts working 90-hour weeks have little or no time to work on their handicaps, but if golf is required for the corporate world:
- How important is the ability to play golf for business (be it banking, PE or anything else)?
- How and when do you start playing? Playing at least enough, that you don’t make a fool of yourself on the course? Does it occur in business school or have most of you always played consistently?
- At what levels (VP,ED,MD, SVP etc.) do you actually need to start making deals/conducting business while playing 9 or 18?
- Besides golf, what other sports are useful/important to meet clients/pitch business during? What activities in general lend themselves to corporate life?
While I was an SA at a BB, the first day I walked in to speak with an MD (in PB sales) I noticed a putter lying on his desk.
Do you play a lot?
I’m in sales, what do you think? It’s part of the job kid, you should learn sooner or later.
I’ve played on and off since I was sixteen, so while I seldom shoot under 90, I don’t feel completely out of place at a golf course. It also helps that I work maybe 60 hours (in the insurance industry) and can hit the driving range Chelsea Piers at least once or twice a week. But what about you guys in banking? It seems as your career progresses from Analyst to MD (well hopefully) and a more sales/revenue generating role – you need to be more and more comfortable swinging a club (correct me if I’m wrong). But in the mean time at what point of time are you able to actually start playing the game and become halfway competent? I mean at Analyst through VP level – I can’t imagine you have enough time, and by the time you’re a director of some sort you already need to be out there.
Maybe it just appears to me that being able to play golf seems more important for business than it actually is and that’s not actually the case. I can say with certainty that in insurance, if you’re in any sort of sales/client role – you will have to play at some point of time. I can’t imagine that banking is such a stretch (at the more senior levels I imagine). Would love to hear some feedback on this? I think author P.G. Wodehouse sums it up pretty well,
Golf, like the measles, should be caught young, for, if postponed to riper years, the results may be serious. ~P.G. Wodehouse, A Mixed Threesome, 1922
Comments
Actually I think you'd be
Actually I think you'd be shocked how little talking goes on during a round of golf, esp if you are walking. Even in a cart, you might have a half hour total of conversation. But beyond that you are waiting for people to hit, or hitting, and you better not be talking/yelling across the course during that time.
Playing is for building rapport and having fun, not for 'doing deals' in my opinion. The driving range is actually much better because it's OK to talk during a swing and more casual. Lots of guys play squash which you can talk a bit more during because it's fucking loud as all hell in there.
if you like it then you shoulda put a banana on it
I guess the bottom line is
I guess the bottom line is that yes, it always helps and if you're a serious golfer you have instant rapport with many people - it's helped me a ton in that regard.
If you work in business, you should be able to handle a round of golf - noone expects you to be great, just play fast (see my post for beginners).
I think more of the business talk would happen at the bar/dinner after the round. But during the round, it's hard enough to focus on the game - getting substantial work done on a banking deal or negotiations I think would be really tough. Golf for us was the escape from all of that, we wouldn't talk much shop on the course, just little status updates more or less.
At the more senior levels, the point is to entertain potential clients, so again you talk little shop and just BS and have fun, that's the most important thing. But I don't think much actually gets locked up on the course in banking, maybe in sales it's different.
if you like it then you shoulda put a banana on it
If you're in New York and
If you're in New York and you're in the finance industry in a non-relationship building job (aka not sales, PWM maybe, etc) then golfing is really really not a big deal. I tried to take up golf for business purposes but realized like 2 weeks into trying to golf regularly that not only did I not like it, but forcing myself to learn wasn't even useful. Now squash or tennis... at least when your boss knows you're good and he needs someone to play against you'll be that guy. Works wonders. That's not to say people don't get out of the city and go play a round of golf, but it's just much less practical than the movies make you think if you're in finance.
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frgna: I guess the bottom
I guess the bottom line is that yes, it always helps and if you're a serious golfer you have instant rapport with many people - it's helped me a ton in that regard.
If you work in business, you should be able to handle a round of golf - noone expects you to be great, just play fast (see my post for beginners).
I think more of the business talk would happen at the bar/dinner after the round. But during the round, it's hard enough to focus on the game - getting substantial work done on a banking deal or negotiations I think would be really tough. Golf for us was the escape from all of that, we wouldn't talk much shop on the course, just little status updates more or less.
At the more senior levels, the point is to entertain potential clients, so again you talk little shop and just BS and have fun, that's the most important thing. But I don't think much actually gets locked up on the course in banking, maybe in sales it's different.
Interesting, I never even considered the logistics of the actual conversation/deal discussion. I mean it's really hard to have a long and substantial decision while you're all scrambling to finish the hole and not hold up the folks behind you. Not to mention, you're probably only in near enough vicinity to talk when you're teeing off and on the green. God knows, I'm always knee deep in fescue in some obscure part of the course looking for my ball after I tee-off any way.
Great post frgna. So squash/racquetball eh? Gotta look into that. Funnily enough, I'm from overseas and while we have squash (which I've played before), no one has heard of racquetball. Honestly, I just assumed they were the same thing when I first came to the States until someone set me straight.
See my other WSO Blog posts
BlackHat: If you're in New
If you're in New York and you're in the finance industry in a non-relationship building job (aka not sales, PWM maybe, etc) then golfing is really really not a big deal. I tried to take up golf for business purposes but realized like 2 weeks into trying to golf regularly that not only did I not like it, but forcing myself to learn wasn't even useful. Now squash or tennis... at least when your boss knows you're good and he needs someone to play against you'll be that guy. Works wonders. That's not to say people don't get out of the city and go play a round of golf, but it's just much less practical than the movies make you think if you're in finance.
I've noticed the tennis thing, but it seems like only the older folks though, who would never consider letting a young runt play at their country club, ha ha. But good to know none-the-less. Again a pro-squash in NYC vote... really got to take it up again. If I remember right, it's a fantastic workout too.
Where do you play usually? Also, where do you usually play tennis? It's hard to find an easily accessible public court that isn't packed all the time. And I don't know where any of the private clubs are either (not to mention, they probably cost the earth).
See my other WSO Blog posts
Primeape: frgna: I guess
I guess the bottom line is that yes, it always helps and if you're a serious golfer you have instant rapport with many people - it's helped me a ton in that regard.
If you work in business, you should be able to handle a round of golf - noone expects you to be great, just play fast (see my post for beginners).
I think more of the business talk would happen at the bar/dinner after the round. But during the round, it's hard enough to focus on the game - getting substantial work done on a banking deal or negotiations I think would be really tough. Golf for us was the escape from all of that, we wouldn't talk much shop on the course, just little status updates more or less.
At the more senior levels, the point is to entertain potential clients, so again you talk little shop and just BS and have fun, that's the most important thing. But I don't think much actually gets locked up on the course in banking, maybe in sales it's different.
Interesting, I never even considered the logistics of the actual conversation/deal discussion. I mean it's really hard to have a long and substantial decision while you're all scrambling to finish the hole and not hold up the folks behind you. Not to mention, you're probably only in near enough vicinity to talk when you're teeing off and on the green. God knows, I'm always knee deep in fescue in some obscure part of the course looking for my ball after I tee-off any way.
Great post frgna. So squash/racquetball eh? Gotta look into that. Funnily enough, I'm from overseas and while we have squash (which I've played before), no one has heard of racquetball. Honestly, I just assumed they were the same thing when I first came to the States until someone set me straight.
Yeah, I'd like to pick up squash bc I've packed on some pounds since moving to London. I've heard more than a few people say to play squash at a high level is one of the most demanding of all sports in terms of endurance and agility. Think my GF would thank me.
For other activities, actually a colleague I know plays in a cricket club, and that's a super fun and social gathering, good for networking. Can be really intense too though. I know it's old school but being able to play bridge really well is another thing I'd like to do.
if you like it then you shoulda put a banana on it