Associate 1 at no-name boutique. How screwed am I for lateralling in the current environment?
I'm currently an Associate 1 at a no-name boutique. I've been with the firm for 2.5 years, first starting out as an Analyst. I can't really complain because I've been able to work on some interesting transactions (albeit sub-$100M), with a lot of responsibility on each deal. However, I always thought I'd be gone after a year by lateralling to a BB / MM IB --- for a variety of reasons, that didn't come to pass...
I still have lateralling on my mind but it seems that the market has been much, much tougher in the last year or so... Most IBs are downsizing. with a lot of IB talent coming on the job market that would compete with me (but with better credentials). I think a lot of IBs also got burned in the 2020 hiring craze when they brought on a lot of under-qualified laterals that were not up to par, and they have become more skeptical of outside talent from smaller firms like mine. I can't imagine that my profile will be getting many looks in the next 3/4 years (or for as long as it takes to get out of the current economic turmoil). Hell, I think it's been 3 months since a recruiter reached out to me...
Long-term goal is not to stay in IB, but I would prefer not to get out before I've accrued most of the technical skillset you're meant to pick in your years of banking... Hence the desire to lateral to a larger firm for more exposure to those technical aspects (modelling, LBO analysis, encountering things like RMTs...)
Would be curious to know what WSO thinks of my options:
- Stay at my current firm and continue to climb the ranks - Not a bad option, but (i) I'm not learning any technical skills because all our clients are smaller, earlier-stage companies that don't require any intensive modelling, and (ii) I'm dreading that the longer I stay here, the harder it will be for me to ever get out.
- Try recruiting for PE - My profile isn't strong enough for most PEs. My technical knowledge is also lacking for most roles.
- Try recruiting for Corp Dev - Very interested in this (especially doing Corp Dev / Strategy for a PE-backed firm) but not even sure where to start. I rarely see offers or get hit up by recruiters for those roles.
- Apply for MBA - Would give me a shot at recruiting as an MBA Associate, but maybe wasteful to drop $200K seeing as I'm already in Investment Banking and an Associate. But on the flip-side, I may discover I have a burning passion to do consulting or product management in my years at B-school and that would give the platform for it. It may also unlock opportunities to do Corp Dev or PE more easily.
Maybe there's also things I haven't considered...
Bump
Lateral to another bank
That's still my primary focus but it's been about 6 months since I could land an interview. The one before that was 8 months prior. (Incidentally, that's what my entire post is about --- dearth of lateral opportunities and very low conversion into interviews...)
Granted, I'm not doing much heavy-lifting to network and land interviews - I mostly depend on recruiters to bring me opportunities. Even when those recruiters call on me for an opportunity they're working on, there's a 10% chance I'll ever hear back from them. Makes me think my profile isn't competitive enough in the current market.
So to be clear? You are literally relying on random recruiters contacting you, and because you've not been offered a job by them you think lateralling is dead and impossible?
I think it is your attitude and lack of an attempt to lateral that is putting you down. Jobs aren't handed to you
Would vote against b school….recruiting starts the second you set foot on campus so you don’t really “discover” you have a passion for something while there, most people come in with a predetermined career goal and try to achieve that thru recruiting for summer internships….don’t think it would be worth the money for you
Yes I'm keeping that in mind. Presumably in the lead-up to applying for B-school, I'd do some introspection and come to understand what industry I'd like to end up in... And would have a better understanding of my goals once I'm writing my essays.
Right now it's just something I'm turning over in my head, because it would give me some kind of fresh start. If I could land a M7 MBA program (reach), that would be a huge boost to my profile, since I don't think my current education (meh university) and work experience (no-name boutique for 2 yrs) are that competitive. Also, going into an MBA program for 2 years mean I could come out the other end when the economy is doing better.
MBA's a decent option at your career stage. I went to an M7 and there were a handful of people coming in with no-name boutique experience; they were all able to clean up in recruiting. You get 2 years away from the workforce and your outcome will probably be much better than if you tried to lateral (top BB / EB vs. some MM seat). Spending a few years as an associate at one of those firms will give you a lot more optionality to pivot into interesting corporate roles as well
Thanks! Gives me a lot to think on. Like you said, there's a certain "ceiling" if I tried to lateral with my current profile. At best, I can angle for an MM or another boutique with better pay. Whereas a reputable MBA opens a lot of doors and lets me try out for top BBs / EBs. And that's a huge difference over the long-term.
Do you know if those peers you had from no-name boutiques had to offset that with stellar GMAT / ECs (to get accepted into M7)? The tough thing about an MBA is I probably have to commit to that path for the next 1.5 or 2 years, to nail the GMAT and work on my ECs.
I don't know offhand, but would just try to get a strong GMAT. I think the importance of ECs is exaggerated - the person reading your app will understand that you don't have a ton of free time and it's probably not worth deferring the decision to accumulate extra volunteer hours. And I wouldn't be too stressed about the no-name boutique aspect, M7 classes include former teachers and people that worked in communications
As a benchmark I pulled my apps together over the course of 4 months including time spent prepping for the GMAT, and others in my class had similar timelines. Also, some non-M7 programs like UVA and Cornell have great banking recruiting and are worth looking into
The opportunity cost is an important thing to think through and I get why people say it's not worth it. But on the flip side, it's a very efficient way to make the transition you want and gives you 2 years to explore other interests and have some fun while you're still in your 20s
MBA is the worst option. Drop 250K to be where you're pretty much now at but two years older and T2 BB best case. Breaking into PE afterward will be very difficult (but not impossible) given you will be over aged (exceptions are if your focus is very niche / you recruit into a LMM/MM in a T2/T3 city that focuses less on paper prestige and more on fit). Worst case is you don't land and have to take a FP&A or IR role (fine positions but not exactly what you're investing MBA money to get).
My advice is to continue working and open the scope of where you want to lateral. Agree that a GS/MS/EVR is unlikely but have you considered foreign BBs (Nomura/Mizuho/HSBC) or Canadian BBs (BMO/TD/Scotia/CIBC) excl RBC that are still growing? People there are also trying to leave and they don't have the most robust entry/refill pipeline so could be a good option. You can also look at MMs like William Blair, Baird, etc outside of NY as doable options as well. Then when you're there maybe consider lateraling again / by then you'll get some broader HH inbounds at least
Makes sense, thanks for your thoughts. [Details removed for anonymity]
I should probably have stressed that I'm very flexible in terms of places I'd consider lateraling to. Given where I'm coming from, landing at Nomura or Scotia would be a dream. I almost ended up at Blair a year ago but unfortunately the MD ended up not liking me in my final interview (after 5 rounds)... I was gutted because Blair seemed like the promised land.
So not at all prestige-whore snubbing lower-tier BBs or anything like that. It's just that I can't even get a look at those places.
Best advice on the thread. An MBA won’t solve all your problems. You need to continue building your skills and network and MAKING money while you wait for economy to open back up. I’ve seen people with way worse profiles than you lateral from out of IB into MM IB and then to EB/BB. Frankly if you’re not able to do what you want you’re doing something VERY wrong (current market conditions notwithstanding) and you need to fix your resume, networking strategy, application strategy, technicals, modeling skills, etc until you’re landing interviews and offers.
Leaving an investment banking associate job, giving up 2 years of income and extremely relevant experience, paying $200k to read outdated books for 2 years, so that you can get an investment banking associate job (which reminder you already have) is about as smart as it sounds.
Disclaimer that an MBA is a genius move for a lot of people, and it’s usually obvious when that is the case.
All true. I've been falling behind on networking (feeling despondent from getting nowhere TBH) and have been putting off updating my resume. I need to stop relying on just recruiters and applying via Linkedin.
Then again, this is London we're talking about where networking doesn't get you very far (comparatively with the US)...
Very interesting perspective. I commented below about how I am in the same position and am leaning towards MBA.
Maybe I am wrong but I feel like no name associate -> MM analyst -> BB analyst seems like a long path with a lot of hours. I am finally starting to get weekends off. Are you seeing people go associate -> associate? Maybe I just don't want it bad enough. Appreciate the insight.
Would he necessarily be where he is now? Particularly in this enviornment, an associate 1 at a no name boutique is effectively in a different industry from an A1 at PJT or Centerview. Their career trajectories are entirely different and there's literally no chance of lateraling from one to the other
Depending on the school and the economic enviornment, an MBA could potentially make lots of sense.
$200k to lose 2 years of income and progression. Don't bother with the MBA.
Associate 1-3 exits are more common in Europe than you think - mostly hired by Mid-Cap PEs, Distressed Debt and Growth Funds. Market for large cap has been killed recently by over-hiring in the past 2 years, but new funds continue to launch and need talent who have been trained in elite teams at tier 1 shops.
Why don't you speak to mentors on doox uk, founded by IB, PE, HF folks (PJT, GS, BAML, Roths, JPM, Evercore // Angelo Gordon, Alcentra, OMERS, 777 Partners, Tikehau, Dorilton etc.) There are a couple who've lateralled at that level.
In the same position as you, so I appreciate everyone's response. I am at a small bank in the south and am about to make Associate... I have gone through the same thought process as you. Here is where I ended up:
Update on my above post: Despite the downgrade, I decided to take a family office offer; I needed something new. I pushed my start date back two months to enjoy time with friends, but the offer was pulled before I started. I already left my no-name shop and am now looking to return to IB.
So, words of advice: stay at your firm and keep grinding. I have a stain on my resume, and no M7 or PE firm will touch me. My only hope is to find an MM IB shop in some T2 or T3 city. Grass isn't always greener. The market is tough. You have it better than you think imo.
What is considered a T2 / T3 city ?
Im really sorry to hear, and I hope you find something soon. Did you get any insight into why the offer was pulled?
Yeah I’m not sure what the MBA hate is. The guys are having serious trouble getting looks from places like Scotia and Nomura. Hiring will eventually improve, but could be a while and it’s still going to be way more competitive than it’s been in the past. So an MBA is one of the only ways I see here to have a shot at moving to a more reputable firm with better options, experience, etc. alternative is they stay at current firm for a long yet undetermined amount of time (who knows when hiring will improve and what it’ll look like)
Yup, the springboard effect is undeniable. And if I were to luck out and land myself at a T7, I think I'd give serious thought to leaving banking for good. Corporate strategy has my eye, and I thought I could build my apps around that.
So I'm not necessarily spending $200K to end up in the same role at a better bank - I'd be taking care of my exit straight-away.
The hate for the MBA is that op is unwilling to even apply or network for jobs now. An MBA won't automatically get them a top job
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