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which bschool does he come from?
Poor performance like your said associate's gets easily noticed in banking, so the fact that seniors are willing to cut him so much slack, despite him doing F all, means he has some social cache to him. That's the impression I am getting based on your post.
Have never worked with such associates, I was in banking between 2011 and 2016.
No clue what school. He said it while I interviewed him and I never heard of it before.
At risk of sounding like a "hardo", I wish the work culture was what it used to be. I'll take being yelled at over this candy ass shit anyday. At least my father prepared me for that.
What bank and/or group?
Can't disclose, realizing I provided a lot of specific details.
Sounds like he already has documented issues at the first team and clearly is not off to a good start in your group - it's not ALL on the analyst to get work done, especially if it was the same analyst doing fine with you.
I would just sit back and not get involved. These things usually work themselves out and social capital is not the end all be all for a second year ASO. Be clear you do not have capacity to review MBA ASO's work and are happy to spend an hour walking him through how checking works in your group but can't take on his entire workload right now.
Yeah generally if OP’s statement is 100% true and that associate is demonstrating that level of egregious behavior, odds are many others are seeing it happen too. And folks like that tend to not last too long once VP+ catch on to their BS.
How has he made through layoffs this past year?
We have not done layoffs
I’ll offer some perhaps unconventional advice - quit if you can. Lateral to a different shop, try to land a gig on the buyside, etc.
You know that economics saying “the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay liquid” (some thing like that)? A parallel may be drawn to bad people on a team: these bad apples may stay longer in an organization longer than you can stay sane.
I’ve been in this situation in the past and it’s absolutely awful: I’ve lost sleep, dreaded going to work, avoid common areas (kitchen/bathroom) just so I don’t run into them, etc. Ultimately I left the org for greener pastures, but man it was a true disaster. My mental health was at an all time low and I’m pretty sure I developed semi-permanent bags under my eyes during that time.
So I’ll reiterate what I said - switch firms if you can. These situations can last way longer than people expect.
Quitting is a fair play. I worry about this market, and the fact this team is still bringing in enough deals that I'm now staffed on 6 live engagements as a mid level associate is encouraging. I truly don't get what's going on with this scenario, it's a bit unprecedented for the team from what I know. Starting to consider pointing out things that are just blatantly incorrect to get the ball moving, but feel that it goes strongly against who I have been as a professional to this point. At the same time, I've seen others that play politics all (positive or negative) excel with less effort and solidify positions. I'm fairly torn.
Similar situation here of having zero motivation to work... but due to an annoying boss instead of an annoying associate, but I like the company a lot, so not sure what to do...
Like it or not, associate like him (might) make a great MD. I've said it hundred times, I'll say it again - juniors are a cost center, not a revenue generation unit = you're expendable and as much as you're great in modelling and building decks, it doesn't matter. It is not even remotely meaningful. Relationships, likability, ability to connect dots, playing politics well - this is what makes a great banker.
this is the painful truth
i worked with an incompetent guy (not banking. he was promoted because he had partner potential because could schmooze
everybody hated working with/under him. but he failed upward into a partner seat. alas life is not fair.
Sure, but this AS still stinks. I'm sure there are at least +10 AS applying to his firm that are way more competent and skillful at managing analysts.
The fact that he took some time off after being staffed on 2 live deals + booking a meeting with OP to tell him how his behavior was toxic based on such a stupid thing is a total L. I'm sure this guy is full of insecurities and feels that his respect should come solely from his title forgetting that one's actions build one's reputation (I bet that he is an ex-Big 4). I'm not sure what attitude his superiors have about him, but if analysts are at the bottom of the IB engine, then this guy is even below analysts in terms of value.
at least that's my attiude if what OP says is true
Sure, maybe, but there's 3 levels between where he is now and where that is. Actions don't fit the job description
[Updated]
Wrong. Juniors are directly providing the execution, organization and content that the client is paying for. They’re not paying millions just for the privilege of golfing with some guy. That’s like saying software engineers at Apple are a “cost center” and the sales people are the only real contributors. No, the engineers are making the actual product, much like junior bankers.
They are paying millions for the relationships, judgment, and credibility of the senior banker and (sometimes) the bank
no one would pay anything for junior banker execution in a vacuum. Just because it’s time consuming and painful to create doesn’t mean it’s valuable. Harsh, I know
Op:
1. Investment Banking is a Sales role at the end of the day
2. Move to a Hedge Fund
Interesting perspective.
1. Sales requires execution, and he's on the execution team. He certainly cannot speak eloquently enough to source business, the dude can't explain the business model of the one engagement he's on.
2. Hedge funds do interest me
Damn I’ve got nothing but respect for this guy. MF knows how to play the game to the max. OP, in the wise words of Weezy: “be good or or be good at it”
Absolutely, im kind of inspired
Some great gems on this. Few points I’ll add from personal experience:
The person who made the comment “the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent” is right. Truthfully, a good firm flushes people like that out quickly and you just have to wait. However, banking is horribly inefficient and nonsensical. If that bothers you, look for new employment because you are in the wrong industry. In the meantime, I would advise doing moves to protect yourself such as mentally acknowledging things are outside your control and it’s not worth taking deal screwups personally. If you get in recurring major jams due to the guy, set boundaries. My favorite boundary I recommend is setting a guardrail on sleep. If the guy pushes you too many nights in a row, say you are logging off sleeping and will do it in the morning. Then he will need to try to figure it out and if he screws it up, you have a very defensible position of “he made me do 3 3ams in a row, so I needed one day to recover”
Appreciate the advice, but I'm actually above this individual in terms of seniority on the team and there's definitely no scenario where I'd ever listen to him for anything.
The long hours are coming from the fact that due to him doing nothing, I have to work on that deal equally along with my 4 other staffing so I get no reprieve. Also, my analyst is increasingly doing shit work due to shit guidance, and has less bandwidth across all deals he is on. These are the catalysts for increased work
It’s funny, based on your response, I can tell the issue might actually be you are just a bad manager. Didn’t realize you were above him and that actually changes my advice majorly:
The fact that the guy thinks you are making the environment hostile already tells me enough. When you were a junior did people not give you the “perception is reality” talk? If someone at your level or below finds you hostile, you need to adjust your demeanor and style to make sure they feel supported and then honest dialogue on how to improve can occur. I get this sounds like mba mumbo jumbo, but the honest truth is if you are an ass people won’t want to work for/with you and will always do the bare minimum.
either leave to somewhere better, complain to someone with control over hiring, or stop bitching
this is a function of a retarded team
What would you do, in this market?
Additional back story: I'm now on 6 live engagements and compensated fairly, have great congealeality with remaining colleagues, and have a great stake here being A2A. Also, we all know how this market is.
Complaining to HR or staffer is interesting: how would you approach it? Not particularly close with that individual: just neutral and don't speak too often.
Try to create situations where he and only he fails. Publicly. For example a certain piece of unimportant but urgent stuff needs doing. Occupy the analyst with something important and urgent all day and all night so the useless Associate can’t use them. Make the clock run out on the Associate. He’ll send it to you to review. Check if it’s dog shit. If it is send it on straight to the MDs and say you’re busy with x which everyone understands to be way more important so it’ll be tolerated. Now there are two outcomes: (1) the MDs review and realise it’s pure horse manure or (2) they don’t review. If they don’t review, reinvent the wheel on what the Associate did so he can’t possibly finish it in a reasonable time. The MDs will start chasing which will give them the sense his out of his depth. Now the focus is a bit more on his and people will keep an eye on him. Repeat once or twice with increasingly important and urgent tasks. Now that he has their undivided attention the inevitable will happen and the problem is solved
Or leave him alone with a management team often enough in meetings he should be able to handle. He’ll make a fool of himself. Management will complain why this dude is on the team. MDs hate unhappy clients and now he has their undivided interest
etc.
coordinate with others for maximum effect
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