Hey guys,
I am an incoming MBA candidate at one of the top B-schools in Europe starting next year (think LBS/INSEAD). I am international and have 1.5 years of M&A internship experience at BB/EB in Paris/London and 3 years of full-time experience at a non-name boutique in Asia. I am looking to relocate back to preferably London post-MBA because of the dynamic M&A markets (vs quite a few PEs pausing investments and banks doing massive layoffs in my current region)
The thing is, I found only GS recruiting 2024 MBA summer associates in London...... while MS, Citi, BofA, FTP, and Houlihan that did hire last year no longer recruit... probably due to the recession or the fact that banks in London are losing interest in MBA, or perhaps both.
How would you think the IB headcount next year (my recruiting year) in London? Should I start applying for a US MBA as MBA hires are more common and prevalent there?
Would appreciate any thoughts on this. Many thanks!
MBA recruiting is a thing in the UK, don't talk out of your ass.
It’s totally “a thing” but not that common. Very extremely unlikely. Banks in London take bachelor students and msc/mim students from top European unis. I’ve never seen one MBA around so far
I would focus on MBB or try to get into the buyside directly post MBA.
I can completely understand why BBs dont hire many MBAs anymore in Europe, people are ill prepared for the job and the pay-off in London isnt great.
I would just apply directly for associates positions. There is almost no structured post mba hiring, but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, especially if you have prior m&a experience.
Much appreciated. Will try my best, and hopefully can get interviews directly with my existing network and new network once start hunting jobs in London
Thanks for this, but I heard MBB are also delaying onboarding new employees? TBH I focused too much on M&A/IB and didn't even think of MBB previously, but given the market condition now, I might have to consider it and will definitely try buyside opportunities as well.
What-PRECISELY is this "payoff" you alluded to that isn't great?
Salaries are much lower than in the US - the (opportunity) cost for the MBA is just not worth it in London
Got it, man. many thanks for your input!
This has been a long-term trend. The MBA isn't really an institution in Europe. Different banks have cancelled their MBA programmes over the past several years.
Banks in London do hire MBA summer associates, however:
The only banks that do in a structured manner are GS, MS, BOFA, Citi. CS used to, not sure if UBS will. GS hires the most - class of maybe 10-15 summer associates in IBD. Of those, 5-8 will be LBS/INSEAD. The other banks will hire fewer, with maybe 2-3 spots for LBS/INSEAD folks at each bank.
At LBS for example (I have this on very reliable authority), out of 500 students, probably 200 apply to banking, of which 100 are serious. Maybe 5-10 get summer BB offers. Of those that do, they are overwhelmingly female, ex-military, LGBTQ, or previously worked at the same bank in IBD in a smaller office (e.g. India).
If you are male, there is a close to 0 chance of getting an IBD offer in London. And even IF you do, you could still get fucked. GS London told their returning summer associates they had to move office to continental Europe, or not join. It really is that bad.
Focus on MBB which is also a shitshow, but hires 10x more people.
This sounds crazy but thanks a lot for your insights. I always heard that in the US, if you are an MBA from a decent school while being committed to banking and fully prepared, you will end up having a seat on Wall Street. If landing in London as an associate is this hard, I should definitely consider going to a US school then. (And I heard US banks can send those who can't get H1B to London office and get them back after like 3 years, which also causes London having more than enough associates?)
This is true. European market / London is COMPLETELY different from the US. Nobody gives a shit about the MBA here, and banks would rather recruit associates as laterals or from big4 than MBA. If you want to do banking, do NOT do a European MBA - so many people learned that the hard way. And yes, there are lots of US MBA's taking the spots in London too.
Thanks for your insights. I am quite interested in your view on LBS MFA program. I wonder how many people (seriously) aimed for BB/EB, and how many actually get the summer internship in this program (or in LBS master programs in general)? I am currently thinking to apply the MFA program as my second master (will be 25 when graduate). I have two long internships (5-6 months) in Corporate M&A + local boutique M&A in Paris, and I am Asian male. Last year I only receive phone interviews from Bofa and Gleacher Shacklock.
MFA is a different story as you’re recruiting for analyst roles. There, almost 80% of the class is seriously pursuing banking and I’d say a little more than 50% will secure decent offers. Still highly competitive but a much different situation to the MBA.
Keep in mind MFA only takes you with <2yrs work experience.
Hello, same background, is it possible to DM you?
I know for a fact that CS did last year. They had a programme specific for MBA summer associates and I know someone who ended up getting an offer, which he rejected. This year I’m not sure. Also one thing that I heard is that even in GS/MS where MBA hiring is structured, they’ll still give priority to their analysts in case they accept promotions. So even tho programmes exist, they’re not very well monitored.
Yes I know and they have been absorbed into UBS now. Remains to be seen if UBS recruit next year, when they historically haven’t for MBA
Ignore username. MBA hiring at MBB likely to be a bloodbath this year and possible next year. Lots of juniors on the beach already and undergrad hiring has always been the priority
Would you say they prioritise undergrad hiring so much as a cost-saving measure?
Currently at LBS and pretty much no one is interested in IB. Seems like everyone is targeting MBB or buyside ( PE / Growth Equity / VC).
What areas are the class coming from? (I know the employment report can tell me this but rather hear it anecdotally)
Not an MBA myself (I'm an MFA but meet a lot of MBAs) and my perception is that there are a lot of people from smaller / lower-ranked consulting firms and auditing. So there are definitely a lot of people who did consulting at a small / lower-ranked firm that want to jump to a better firm and / or switch locations to London. Then you of course also have quite a few corporate execs with 5-10 YoE who come here to build a network.
imo if you want banking go to a US school
even a t15 should be enough
Granted I never worked in bulge bracket IB in London and I realise that this is the IB forum, but I did have over 10 years in boutique IB, Big Four and asset management, and in my experience....people don't really care about MBAs in London. It just doesn't seem to make that much difference, and in my work I rarely seemed to run into people who had done MBAs. Not saying its useless, but its probably less of a thing than in the US.
Also never heard of anyone I worked with or knew taking time out to pursue an MBA. Not saying it didn't happen, but it definitely wasn't something that was visible.
MBA's are way more common relatively speaking in PE/HF (not pod shops, more SM), and then most of those will be US MBA's. I work in a PE firm where the majority of its mid level people have MBA's, mostly from HBS/Wharton.
because PE is an American invention, so everybody folows the US-PE model without really calibrating if they need certaing things or not (like requesting MBAs from their candidates). Also, some of those MBAs may be originally from Europe and after working some years in the US they got offered a role back in Europe - the reasoning, I suspect, being that they will bring the US-work culture/business attitude and somewhat outperform the non-US-style PE funds lol
I will also advise against doing an European MBA. US MBA or nothing, everything else is just suicide.
Hi, can you elaborate why?
I'm currently looking for Master's degrees in Europe. Given that I have over 6 years of experience (commercial banking, SMBs), what would you suggest if I want to break into IB/Corp Banking in Europe?
The market situation is really bad. Despite my work experience, which will be 3 years of relevant work experience in finance (not IB though) by the time I finish my Master's programme, I've decided to do a second Master's and try to join as an analyst. I will be older than the majority but lateralling in London without prior IB experience is impossible at the moment. I've also noticed the same thing for many other, more mature students with prior non-finance work experience (like engineering) that instead of doing MBA, they decided to do second Master's and joined as analysts. Not ideal, but better than nothing imho
because European MBAs are just wannabe US MBA in the same way as US Master's are just wannabe European Master's.
Each country has its own cultural approach to education. In the EU it is more normal to join the workforce a bit later and also education is much more affordable, so (i) additional education on top of one's Bachelor's is seen as perfectly normal, and (ii) as the UG are affordable, it doesn't require the same seriousness/commitment as in the US where you're decision carries 5/6 figures loans, so a Master's is expected to prove that you're really commited to the career you opted in your UG.
Obviously, kids that went to target schools in Europe don't really need the Master's; their commitment to achieve professionally is implied from their educational achievements, so the above rule doesn't apply to them.
so to go back to my first paragraph, do you want the cheap version of something or the real one?
hey can I DM you? much appreciated!
To put it simply, because MBA degrees aren't a requirement in Europe unless you maybe want to switch to MBB. The degree isn't that valuable in Europe compared to the USA, and most European companies won't even care much about it.
I had an offer from LBS for their MBA2023 programme and ended up dropping out before the start for a variety of reasons, but mainly because I modelled the expected post-MBA income, debt repayments, and cost of living in London and found out that, after taxes, rent, and loan repayments (for a 10yr loan) I'd be in the same position as someone who makes GBP 50k in London. I didn't think it had a good ROI and the debt would just mean less freedom going forward.
Don't get me wrong, perhaps MBAs make a lot more sense in the USA given the job market dynamics there and their culture of accumulating personal debts in a cavalier way. But I don't think they're really worth it in Europe, unless you are dead-set on switching to MBB.
Thanks for sharing, just wonder if you had chosen a US MBA then?
I wasn't really interested in moving to the USA when I applied, so I didn't even bother applying to US B-schools or running the numbers to make sense of the ROI case. However, most LBS students / alumni I spoke with said that compensation was higher in the USA and the MBA degree held much more value in the USA market. They also said it was an uphill battle trying to apply for MBA jobs in the USA with an European MBA. So, if your goal is to break into Wall Street, definitely go for an American MBA.
Probably a combination of the fact that buyside opportunities are less in London so less people leave banking compared to US, so less seats need to be filled at associate level. And also because since job market is more competitive in London, the quality of people going to big 4 is actually decent and nowhere near as bad as the US, so a lot of banks hire laterals from big 4. And these guys are probably better fits because they come in with a lot more finance knowledge than an MBA.
TBH the only thing I am not sure about is if my multinational M&A background (and it starts in Europe) plus an MBA will open doors to Banks/PEs in London, I think my technical skills are exceptional, which US and EU value but in my current market nobody gives a shit. I do believe my DCF/LBO/M&A modelling and presentation skills will prevail over those in big 4 in London
What jobs do these MBA grads actually do besides IBD and MBB which combined take less than 600 people when you have close to 800 grads from LBS + another 1000 from INSEAD J/S start and on top of that you also have Oxbridge and some random European MBA (IESE / IMD / HEC / etc.)?
I have read INSEAD report that fewer than 10% of their students get into "Leadership Development Program" so what exactly do they do and how do they pivot to another career at blue chips without relevant experience / grad program pipeline
Aside from Banking / MBB / all buyside (which takes c. 70% of the class combined in an average year, currently probably 30% due to the recession):
- A lot of rich kids from Asia/LatAm/Africa who are there to party and get a stamp before going back to their family business
- A lot of people from those markets anyway who will be returning to various roles (MBB etc.) but in their home market
- A lot go to BS startups to work for peanuts (see: rich parents)
- A handful do entrepreneurship, usually badly (the world is waking up to the fact that the MBA teaches you sweet fuck all, and these guys think they have the secret sauce after a middling degree lol)
- Some go to random corporate gigs outside of leadership development programs
- Most importantly - a fair amount are unemployed
A European MBA is worth its weight in toilet paper quite frankly, UNLESS you have a stellar background before and know EXACTLY what you want to do, and don't fuck around (i.e. you take a lot of term-time internships etc.). And you can leverage the location (i.e. LBS in London etc.)
As someone from LatAm (not rich by any extension of the word), who wants to break into investment banking / corporate banking in Europe (Germany), what would you suggest?
Coming from IBD in Asia, no corporate experience and no european experience and instead spent a few years learning mickey mouse IBD in Asia with things less sophisticated than Europe
Do you think changing career and breaking into F100 / FTSE100 LDP in London is a long shot
I know a bunch of LBS MBA grads who ended up working at start-ups in varied business roles (senior business analyst, product manager...), or took "normal" business roles at bigger firms, or went on to work at small PE funds. I know a former surgeon who did an MBA there, and stayed in London for about 2 years working at a small Healthcare-focused PE fund. He then left this role (or was laid off, I don't know) and went back to his home country to work at one of the MBB firms after five months.
Needless to say you don't need to spend like GBP 90k + living expenses + oppty cost to get one of those "business jobs" at a start-up or bigger corporate if you're based in Europe.
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