Mars Science Laboratory - Mars Curiosity Rover

SirBarney

rls

Amphipathic

SirBarneyCouldn't have done it without the Nazis

True. What you won't read in history textbooks is that neither the americans or the soviets would have made much gains in space exploration without all the nazi scientists poached by both sides at the end of the war through operation paperclip. Some NASA scientists have even admitted that if you just subtract wernher von braun from the equation we would have never gotten to the moon. Yet both sides get a huge sense of national pride from these things. The emperor wears no clothes.

That's about as plausible a counterfactual that the Internet would have never been assembled without the U.S. Government. It is preposterous to assume that: 1) there is only one course to the discovery of a particular technology; and 2) that only one person (or set of persons) could have done it. Lay off it, guys. If you want to be attention-grabbing contrarians, fine- but at least be reasonably plausible about it.

Never did I imply that there's only one course of discovery. And yeah, your second point is legitimate but you can't deny credit to the Nazis for the significant advancements that the made and contributed to NASA. If it weren't for them there's no guarantee that NASA would be where they are today.

Your argument is practically the same as saying that if we didn't have Einstein, we'd still know the limitations of light. Or that if we didn't have Tesla/Edison, we would still have electricity. Sure, it's possible and maybe likely but it just sounds like you are spouting off an argument to make one. I'm no fan of chaos theory, but do you honestly believe that had all of these inventors/pioneers/geniuses not existed we'd still be in the same place as we are today?

I believe in your signature but I refuse to be accused as an attention-grabbing "contrarian"

Your one word agreement of "True" with the statement "Couldn't have done it without the Nazis" and your conjecture that without "wernher von braun...we would have never gotten to the moon," undergirds my response. Agreeing to the statement and making that argument implicitly suggests that one believes in a unitary path and a unique person (or persons) who could have discovered a technology; in this case- the Nazis. If that is not what you meant, you must understand why a reader could form that interpretation.

As for the uniqueness of the individuals you mentioned, I would point you to their extremely gifted, yet less celebrated, contemporaries. Look at how much overlap and simultaneous inventions that has happened the world over- copyrights, inventions, and patents applications submitted within days of each other, sometimes hours. The problem of the discussion we are having is that it takes place entirely in the realm of the counter-factual- all we can do is assign probabilities and make extrapolations based on our observations. From your response, I think we both agree that there is not a fixed person that allows for the discovery of new technologies or ideas. However, formulating at an alternate is in the eye of the imagineer. I just happen to think that we have plenty of smart people thinking about ideas, and formulating new ones, all the time.

Amphipathic

rls

Amphipathic

SirBarneyCouldn't have done it without the Nazis

True. What you won't read in history textbooks is that neither the americans or the soviets would have made much gains in space exploration without all the nazi scientists poached by both sides at the end of the war through operation paperclip. Some NASA scientists have even admitted that if you just subtract wernher von braun from the equation we would have never gotten to the moon. Yet both sides get a huge sense of national pride from these things. The emperor wears no clothes.

That's about as plausible a counterfactual that the Internet would have never been assembled without the U.S. Government. It is preposterous to assume that: 1) there is only one course to the discovery of a particular technology; and 2) that only one person (or set of persons) could have done it. Lay off it, guys. If you want to be attention-grabbing contrarians, fine- but at least be reasonably plausible about it.

Would the saturn rockets that sent us to the moon eventually have been made without braun? I guess. But god knows how long that would have taken (would we be there by now?). And alternate histories aside, they do still deserve the bulk of the credit. Sorry if I offended anyone's patriotic sensibilities.

Let's not forget that there were other countries were working on this idea. Geez, they way you guys write about this, you'd think no one else was working on this technology. I mean, Robert Goddard filed patents for liquid fuel rocket design and multistage rocks in 1914- even before WWI. Let's not forget that it was German scientists who were using Goddard's designs, ideas, and plans to solve their technical challenges. Let's not forget that Braun used Goddard designs and components. Let's not get the history backward- Goddard preceded Braun.

And don't take this correction as some nationalist zeal to defend the imagined 'honor' of a country. Innovation has no nationality- but we have to give credit where credit is due. So, it is more complicated than simply giving the Germans the bulk of the credit.