What are my chances at T15?
I've looked at the forums here for a long time, and I think you guys could give me some help. I have a non-traditional background and would like to go into consulting, probably social sector practice, education related. Except for some business experience after grad school, I've only ever worked at non-profits. I know that my resume is not typical for an MBA applicant, but I thought some of you could what my chances are at the top schools and MBA business schools">M7. Any constructive advice you could offer about potential challenges and solutions would be really helpful. I can't be certain, but based on my prep so far, I hope to get 700+ on the GMAT. Here's my work experience so far:
3.5 Cum. GPA
Top Canadian university, M.A. in the humanities 2007-2008
Top 10 liberal arts, B.A. 2003-2007
French University 2006
Canadian University (French) Summer 2004
Instructor, better-known prep school in the Northeast 2013-present
Teach High School Latin and History. Don’t know what my other responsibilities might be right now.
Instructor & Residential Faculty, prep school in the South 2012-2013
• Developed a curriculum for the school’s new middle school and high school Latin programs.
• Coordinated with other faculty members to implement a residential curriculum for 120 boarding students.
• Managed the academy’s external publications and publicity during the Public Information Coordinator’s extended absence.
Systems/Public Services Assistant, Top Ranked Divinity School 2011-2012
• Headed a yearlong database automation project of 50,000 volumes for upgraded library facilities in early 2013.
• Recommended models for the relocation of the Seminary’s collection materials to the new facilities.
• Managed general inventory with Collection and Public Services Assistants.
Art Cataloger & Research Assistant, Ivy League University 2010-2011
• Researched, cataloged and digitized art for X based research databases.
• Managed and completed the construction of the 2011 X Database, with over 5,000 photographic records of architectural monuments.
• Worked with a team of colleagues to digitize the X Collection, on loan from the Sorbonne, as well as several private collections.
Records Management Analyst, Private Aviation Company 2009-2010
• Introduced and developed a new system for records and inventory management.
• Prepared maintenance and inventory records for FAA review.
• Recommended and pursued new marketing and social media options.
Two publications in Art History
International Studies Scholarship 2006
French, Latin, German (elementary)
Present volunteer commitments (leadership role in at least one) and several years of singing in different choirs.
bump
WSO might be the worst place ever to have a non-traditional, social-sector/high school latin teacher profile evaluated, but here it goes.
Bottom line is that if you get a 720+ (will definitely need a high quant split given your work) and have a 3.5 at a good school, you have a shot at a lot of business schools.
Now, for the questionable part of your profile: what in the world are you teaching high school latin for? You went from doing business-y things like database automations and digitizing collections (no idea what that means, but sounds like something Accenture would do), to teaching latin and being a dorm supervisor? I think schools are really going to question why you want to go to business school when your experience has clearly gone in the opposite direction.
You have to find a way to describe what is lacking at the schools you work at, and explain why you are the right person to fix that, and how business school will enable you to do that. Again, with no knowledge of the education industry other than having attended school, I don't know how I'd do that. Maybe you realized in your last gig, when managing PR and Comms, that schools have no idea what they're doing, and you're the right person to fix this, so long as you learn marketing at Kellogg. Sounds like a stretch, but maybe it makes sense.
I would go onto Poets and Quants and read some of Sandy's discussions of TFA applicants. He gets a bunch of those, and they probably have good ideas how to explain away a career in education, even though TFA is very competitive and well known, so you'll be a at a distinct disadvantage to them (not to mention it helps poor kids and you have worked at prep schools). Try reaching out to people that have gotten their MBA with a background anything like yours - they definitely exist, so figure out how to spin your story and experience to make it sound plausible.
As for M7, H/S/W are probably out of the question - too many elite TFA people that want to go, plus your numbers won't impress there. After that, anything is possible, but I think any of them will be a major stretch. Yale obviously could resonate, although they will really have the knowledge to pick apart your story. I would talk to someone with better knowledge of applicants (a consultant that has worked with education related applicants) to see where you stand. Crush the GMAT, and then work with someone to figure out a story.
Well, to be honest, I don't like teaching. I had to take a job in teaching because I needed the job security. I was doing "busness-y" things, but they were all dependent on funding that usually ran out after 12 months. Anyone who's worked research assistant positions at universities knows how no matter how good you are, that doesn't matter to whatever board your boss has to appeal to. But my problem is that I can't really say that in my application without it looking like I was "let go." Any idea on how I can explain this without ruining my chances?
As for TFA, I don't really understand how or why those people have a one up on someone who's worked in prep schools. Prep schools are more demanding than public schools. The more elite one's tend to hire teachers who have proven themselves in their field. I don't know what kind of reputation TFA has among admission committees, but most of my friends who went into TFA were people who wanted to postpone adulthood by choosing a "program" over a job. Same with the Peacecorps, Americorps, etc. Why would adcomms think TFAers were more worthy than your average teacher?
Umm, no. I went to an "elite" prep school in MA and also worked (as a volunteer/assistant) at a public school that hires TFA fellows. And the latter is by far more challenging (for teachers). You have to understand that TFA teachers (and their colleagues) are usually dealing with kids in extreme poverty. The students often also cope with gang issues, family issues, drug issues at home, etc. For example, the teacher I was working for had to track down a student who had been abducted by his father because the father lost custody due to his drug dealing and gang membership. So, to survive in such an environment AND actually teach students something requires an incredible amount of courage, maturity, leadership, etc--all qualities that make you a good candidate. Similar story for Peacecorps, Americorps, etc.
In contrast, while prep schools might hold their teachers to higher academic standards, they also much more regular/cushy jobs. Yes, you might need to coach a sports team and do dorm duties. But it's in a very controlled environment with a lot of resources behind you. The two just don't compare.
Unfortunately, I have no answers for you, except to say that this process is definietly not logical. I can only say that it's not clear to me why business school is a logical next step in your career, given what business schools typically look for. As for looking like you got "let go", I personally don't think it sounds like that. Instead, I think it sounds like funding ran out, and you chose to go into teaching (something not business related) instead of pursuing something closer to the business roles you had. Hell, maybe that's part of your story. You thought that teaching would allow you to combine your passion for projects with your passion for helping others, but it turns out that X, Y, Z is lacking from teaching, and moreover, that YOU are lacking A, B, C, so now you need business school to learn those things and apply them to fix XYZ. No idea if that makes any sense, just a thought.
As for TFA, I think it's like anything where people are prescreened for you. I just found an article that said that in 2011, TFA accepted 4.5k out of ~46k applicants, or 9.7%, mostly out of Ivy League/Ivy equivalent schools. Think of it like any highly competitive job (MBB, BB IBD, etc.) - schools know that it takes something to get accepted there. Not saying that it doesn't at Andover or wherever you teach, but this is simply a pool of applicants that they see consistently, and that is consistently competitive. The other reason is because, as I said above, TFA helps poor people. Nothing about working in a prep school sounds like you're doing "good deeds", even if you are. Lastly, most TFA applicants don't go right to bschool, but seemingly work elsewhere for a few years (either in leadership roles at TFA, or at MBB/Deloitte or IBD). How they get those jobs? Well, that goes back to the above I guess.
Quote from HLS: "At Harvard Law School, we look for passion, energy, and social awareness and we've found these qualities in Teach For America alumni. They share our commitment to law as public service. We're confident they'll use the resources and opportunities here to change the world." --> Prep school teachers do not resonate "change the world".
Again, I think you need to go elsewhere to find someone with much more knowledge than I (and most others on this site) have. Reach out to some of the Admissions Consulting companies and ask for someone who has worked with applicants from similar backgrounds, and get their take. And I would also try to do something more business sounding at your current role.
Check these posts that I just googled as well: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/hbs-or-similar-after-teach-for-am… http://hbsguru.com/blog/2010/07/12/teach-for-america-hbs-favorite-org-o…
I also agree with BGP that having a convincing story will be very important. If non-profit consulting is truly your goal, you'll have to explain more firmly how an MBA will help you get there (possibly MBB -> non-profit consulting) because, to my knowledge, not too many M7 MBAs go directly into non-profit/social-sector consulting.
Thanks, pnb. This thread definitely needed some actual knowledge, and not just me guessing. McK and others do have social focused practices, and there are also some leading social consulting firms (Bridgespan is the name that comes to mind). I think your goals are reasonable and doable, but an application/story has to be cohesive. Your experiences should flow into why you're applying now, which should flow into what business school will do for you, which should flow into what you will do after school into long term goals.
That was long winded, but each piece of your story should lead into the next one. Your job as an applicant is to link them together so that it makes sense, especially from a non-traditional background.
I understand that this is not a logical next step in my career. I want to switch careers and abandon teaching. I want to go into consulting, and the only reason Im focusing on social sector consulting is because my previous work experience wouldn't be completely unrelated, as it would be in most fields. Is it safe to admit in my application that I chose teaching because I wasn't in a financial position to accept another temporary position?
I would not say that. It's fine to regret a decision, but I would frame the regret around how you thought teaching was the next step to your goal, but it turns out that it wasn't. If you say what you said, I would say, if you weren't in a position to accept a temporary job, how are you going to completely give up an income for two years, while spending $120k on my business school? Those two don't work well together.
Here's a direct excerpt from Sandy's last article on P&Q about a TFAer who works in a second job focused on education: "Your short-term goals are fine. Everyone loves consultants, and McKinsey and Bridgespan is a good set of choices. I would be more flexible as to long-term goals, although you got the idea. Starting your own firm to improve education for underserved international students is perhaps one buzz word too far. Try to be more expansive and have your goals emerge from your deep understanding of issues, viz., what interests you is A, B, C and that could mean doing X, Y, Z. That can all be broadly education focused. The problems of international education for underserved groups, your current focus, trend more to general development issues (buildings, nutrition, et c) than education per se."
Maybe that helps. Here's a link to a Sandy post about a ex TFAer turned adventure travel guide, which is certainly moving the wrong direction from business. Her profile is probably better overall, but could help as well.
http://poetsandquants.com/2012/04/06/handicapping-your-chances-of-an-el…
Thanks, all of this is helpful. Any ideas for how I could make my application/story cohesive?
To this layman, it looks to me like you just can't stay away from school (this is your second graduate degree, you worked at some Ivy doing something, you're a teacher right now), and you want to make some money (working at a prep school, not some underprivileged shit that doesn't pay). And you realized your career isn't going anywhere. Thus, MBA?
Pretty logical, but you gotta spin this, dude. That's not the most flattering picture.
I found that once I was pegged as "academic" it was very hard to be accepted in the business world. Working at a university is not at all the same as being a student. It's a real job with 9-5 hours, and I doubt anyone would make the mistake of thinking I was working there because I secretly wanted to be a student. But as far as employers are concerned, you aren't cut out for business if you're too bookish, and your skills won't be tactile enough to mean anything to them. For a period, I was leaving my MA off my resume, just so I could have a shot at entry level corporate jobs. So you're right about the last part. My options are either to get an MBA and try to come up with a persuasive elevator pitch that makes my years in education meaningful, or spend the rest of my life as a high school teacher.
As for working in a prep school to strike it rich, that's not at all what it's like. Private school teachers are actually paid the least in the teaching world, places like Andover excepted. TFA starting salary is actually higher than what several of my colleagues were making last year. If I were working in the public school in the same town where I work, I'd be making about 15k more. Inner city public school salaries are even higher in my state because the job is so much crazier. It worries me that ad comms might make the same assumptions you guys have and hold them against me.
Coupe of points:
1) Your job is to make the AdCom's assumptions for them. You have 1000+ words to do that. That, again, is why figuring out your story is so important. I wish I could be more helpful with making your story cohesive, but without knowing anything about education, it's tough. I'm making all the same assumptions that you're worried AdComs will make.
2) Your entire second paragraph is exactly what you DON'T want AdComs to think about you. Sure, you could have worked at an inner city public school and made a difference (and more money on top of it), but that would have sucked, so I took the easy way out and worked at a nice prep school, even though I made less money. Try to frame it as the exact opposite of that, especially if your goals are eventually social sector consulting. How are you going to explain not wanting to get dirty teaching, but then say you'll be willing to do it as long as you work for McKinsey? Doesn't add up. You need to explain to them what teaching at a prep school offered you that those inner-city schools didn't, and how it has prepared you to give back to both areas after your MBA, or something.
3) I think it's important to realize that we're being pretty hard on you about T15 schools. I just don't see this at M7 unless you develop a totally badass story (which may be possible). It's a reach even at 7-15. However, Tier 2 schools may be in your wheelhouse if you knock the GMAT out of the park, and will definitely give you the opportunity to do business things and not be a latin teacher for the next 40 years.
I really think you have a lot of excuses right now, and it's mainly because your career hasn't turned out the way you wanted it to. The good news is that is the case for a lot of people applying to school, but it absolutely cannot sound like that. No excuses - everything you did was deliberate to achieve something, but it didn't work out for some reason, and now you need bscool to get past it and do X. e
This is really what I was trying to figure out with this thread. A simple and acceptable story might have been that I'm interested in combining my educational database management background with my hands on teaching experience to work for a consulting company in educational tech. But I have a feeling you would say this story wouldn't cut it at the T15.
I really do want to get an MBA, but I won't accept the risks of attending a Tier 2 school, coming out with 160k in debt, and facing Tier 2 job prospects in a struggling economy, especially if I'd have to "knock the GMAT out of the park" to follow even that path. I asked this now to avoid wasting the next six months studying for the GMAT and preparing applications for school I would almost certainly be rejected from. If I can be resigned to not getting in now, there are measures I can take to make the next 40 years as a Latin teacher a little easier!
As a side note, in 2003 I asked my senior year philosophy teacher whether he regretted teaching at a private high school. His response was that working there gave him a chance to make a difference in society by educating the people who would someday run it, something which I think is jsut as noble as working with underprivileged communities.
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