City Smackdown - Part 1: Empire State of Mind
This is my first post here in Wall Street Oasis. [Applause]. In order to get some inspiration, I have been reading a bunch of forum threads in an effort to find a good and interesting topic to write about. I noticed endless discussions about the long hours endured by the IB folks, the whole PE/VC mana, the European crisis fallout and a bunch of other crap, all of which I intend to address in due time.
But the post that caught my attention was someone thinking about relocating from the US to Europe. As a finance professional who lived in New York, London and São Paulo over the last 6 years, I might have a bit to add to the whole geographical/cultural/career discussion that takes place here.
Therefore, geographies and relocation choices are the first subjects I will cover in my first few posts. In this #1 specifically, I will go on a bit about how I look at New York in the greater scheme of things. Certainly, most of you either live or have otherwise been to New York, but your perception of the city tends to shift a bit when you have performed the young, overworked monkey role in a few stages around the world. And finally, yes, it is sort of an easy topic to write about, so here we go.
New York, US:
Well, this is probably the hole which most of you monkeys inhabit or aspire to live in. So we all must know much of this by now. New York is that very same place you saw on TV growing up. In many senses the greatest city in the world. But this statement is a bit troublesome. Yes, you can find some of the world’s greatest restaurants, but you will need to order on seamlessweb and eat on your desk.
Yes, there are more places to hang out than you could possibly visit in 10 lifetimes, but unless you’re extremely lucky, the spare time that the New York banking culture will allow you will be scarce. All in all, it is most certainly the top of the world for all the urban types, but the work pace in Finance is the worst I have ever witnessed, even controlling by firm culture, finance sub-sector and all of that.
And the people! Interesting, good-looking and smart, right? Right. But that is exactly the problem. First, because hordes of money-hungry monkeys, arguably the best in the world, are having the New York idea and drafting New York plans by the minute. If you think you’re smart, hard working and committed, looking around yourself in Midtown at around lunchtime can be a very humbling experience. Second, because if you are a foreigner, the whole “diversity” thing is not as true in finance as it is in other trades, for the peculiar American style of networking and socializing in the workplace environment makes it way harder for outsiders to break in.
It is very hard to get it right, and the average American tends to have just the same a hard time when her boss is fired and is replaced by one who has just been imported from another country. Maybe you disagree and you genuinely believe that your Wall Street bank has a fantastically diverse work culture, and if that is the case I strongly suggest you hop on the first plane and spend a couple of weeks in your firm’s London or Hong Kong offices.
It is hard to fight the fact that relative to pretty much any other financial hub, NY has a very homogenous financial culture, and people in Wall Street are basically using the same moves while fighting for the same seats (fortunately, there are many). Yeah, maybe you think you have what it takes to get to the top before all of them. But even if that is the case you must acknowledge that the race won’t be easy, actually it will be as hard as it can get. And maybe you could get to one of those 7-digit spots quicker, in a place with less competition, right? Maybe.
Pros: smart, hard working, good-looking people in a fantastic city
Cons: smart, hard working, good-looking people in a fantastic city
Is this how you feel about this city?
**Senhor Finance has worked in basically everything: industry, PE, IB, S&T, management consulting and hedge funds. He hopes to get something right one day.
Comments
Strong 1st post.
Strong 1st post.
I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.
Hi, good post! However,
Hi, good post!
However, somehow I get the impression that you underestimate the other financial hubs. I don't think getting to the top is any easier in Hong Kong or London. Also, all the other points (harder for outsiders, people are well dressed etc. is also true for these other places).
Just my two cents.
If anyone has a chance to
If anyone has a chance to experience NYC while unemployed, I would highly recommend it. It is completely different then living there while working in the finance industry. I was lucky enough to have 3 months off, as I quit my job early knowing that I will be starting an MBA program after the summer is over, and although it was tough on the pocketbook, it was one of the greatest experiences I have ever had.
trailmix8: If anyone has a
If anyone has a chance to experience NYC while unemployed, I would highly recommend it. It is completely different then living there while working in the finance industry. I was lucky enough to have 3 months off, as I quit my job early knowing that I will be starting an MBA program after the summer is over, and although it was tough on the pocketbook, it was one of the greatest experiences I have ever had.
Can you elaborate on this? What did you do and what made it such a great experience?
Personally I agree with the OP. It seems that no matter how successful you are, there are always thousands of people better than you in NYC. Was out on Saturday night in meatpacking and was tough to get in almost everywhere. Makes you wonder what is the point of it all. I'm starting to think NYC is not all that after all.
I want to live in NYC one
I want to live in NYC one day, mostly just to get out of my socal bubble (even though it is a very nice bubble). I have never lived anywhere besides socal, and the only other place I would want to live would be NYC.
Man made money, money never made the man
trailmix8: If anyone has a
If anyone has a chance to experience NYC while unemployed, I would highly recommend it. It is completely different then living there while working in the finance industry. I was lucky enough to have 3 months off, as I quit my job early knowing that I will be starting an MBA program after the summer is over, and although it was tough on the pocketbook, it was one of the greatest experiences I have ever had.
Sounds interesting. What did you do?
Good post. I agree that being
Good post. I agree that being in NYC while having lots of free time e.g. no work/school can be really fun. Also, I like being around people who are "better" than me - it drives me to be better myself. I didn't have the same drive when I grew up in the suburbs.
Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?
SenhorFinance: As a finance
As a finance professional who lived in New York, London and São Paulo over the last 6 years, I might have a bit to add to the whole geographical/cultural/career discussion that takes place here.
Dude, please elaborate more on Sao Paulo. Is it like the holy-land I imagine it to be? Healthy, curvy, beautiful women everywhere you look? Do you speak Portuguese? How's the job market down there?
Few things on WSO make me
Few things on WSO make me laugh more than new NY analysts talking about how they just landed their dream job and now they live with a roommate or two. A roommate was a necessary evil your freshman year of college, and is completely unacceptable after that. Add in the weather, the rats, and the necessity of public transportation, and you're left with a heaping pile of shit. Thank god I'm in Texas.
Starting from the end of your
Starting from the end of your comment, yeah, it's tough for everyone and those things are true elsewhere, but in my experience I've found them to be a bit truer in NY. London being an EMEA hub and Hong Kong being an Asia Pacific hub, they naturally tend to be more multicultural and multilingual. I've been to many trading floors in London and touring their equity desks always reminds me of Epcot Center. You know, the lake. NYC desks basically cover the US, which is fine, since it's 20%+ of the world's GDP and I'd guess around double that in markets' ADTV, but at the expense of a bit less diverse financial culture. Singapore is a bit like that too. Can't speak for HK, though. Let's say I didn't underestimate them, maybe I might need a bit extra field research!
Thanks for your comment,
SF
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Finametrics: SenhorFinance:
As a finance professional who lived in New York, London and São Paulo over the last 6 years, I might have a bit to add to the whole geographical/cultural/career discussion that takes place here.
Dude, please elaborate more on Sao Paulo. Is it like the holy-land I imagine it to be? Healthy, curvy, beautiful women everywhere you look? Do you speak Portuguese? How's the job market down there?
Interesting question. The women part is accurate, but SP also comes with side effects such as motorcycle-powered gunpoint robbery, traffic mayhem and an incredibly high cost of living. Job market is at par with NY in terms of compensation, but hard to break in. Oh, well, Part 3 will be about São Paulo anyways. Cheers!
[[As this was my first post, naturally the previous comment was my first comment, and I didn't know how to quote the comment. It was in reply to the fellow that thought I might be downplaying other financial hubs.]]
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You have an incredible
You have an incredible experience, working in such different fields and in so different cities is something I envy.
Like someone said earlier,
Like someone said earlier, solid first post. Looking forward to the rest!
"So who lost the hundy?"
Do you think NY desks look
Do you think NY desks look for diversity when hiring though, like they would in a HK/London? ie. does someone who is from/has lived abroad or is multilingual appeal to them much at all? Or are they looking for someone to blend in and appeal to US client base?
hwalterhwite: Do you think NY
Do you think NY desks look for diversity when hiring though, like they would in a HK/London? ie. does someone who is from/has lived abroad or is multilingual appeal to them much at all? Or are they looking for someone to blend in and appeal to US client base?
Honestly, ours is a people business, and hiring people is a tough investment. Unlike investing a plant, it involves trusting and relating. In my opinion, that doesn't come from diversity. To the contrary, it comes from homophily, from the whole "birds of a feather flock together" adage, and this is natural.
Just as a parallel, examine people who self-report an "international student" status in US b-schools and you will realize that a lot of them - if not most - were raised in your typical American neighborhood and watch Monday Night Football. They just happen to have a foreign parent and a foreign passport as a consequence and man, if you have one of those you gotta love this numbers game. Why? Homophily. The overwhelming majority of admission people in US universities were born, raised and educated in the US.
Equal-opportunity employment doesn't eliminate the fact that firms will still look for this sort of connection when tapping culturally/ethnically/etc-diverse labor pools. Think London. The desks aren't more diverse because of hiring policies, but because they need people who have knowledge and experience in markets that have different practices, laws and languages. But in NY there isn't much of that need. Don't get me wrong, I think living abroad and being multilingual is a great thing, makes you more interesting and wise, and is a formidable career hedge in these turbulent days. But it won't really make you stand out in a vanilla US bank recruiting.
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General
I truly believe NYC has to be
I may not be on the Jedi Council, but I sure am great with the Force.
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Disincentivy: I truly believe
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This is so true. I live in
Great post. Thanks
......just trying to save at least one hour a day for myself....for sanity purposes.
I take the longest goddamn
RIP WSO Chat.
I moved from a poor-ass small
Disincentivy: I truly believe
finance is the science of goal architecture.