Please Tell Me I Can Look Forward to PE
I feel so burnt out. Have been working legit 90-110hr weeks for the past few months straight and idk how much longer I can keep going. So many Friday nights and Saturday’s have been blown up on dumb client asks that go nowhere. I feel like I do nothing anymore besides work and sleep and I’m seeing myself turn into a shell of what I once was (physically, mentally, emotionally). I get this is the classic IB experience, but but I’ve been doing this for 3 years and it’s gotten so much worse over time.
Also, I feel like it’s a total myth that WLB improves as you get more senior. If anything, getting promoted puts you on call even more.
I landed a MF PE offer a few months ago and based on what I have read in here, I am worried I am in for more of the same. One of the main reasons I took the offer was because I just can’t rationalize being an advisor bitch my whole career. I have seen my MD literally cancel two family vacations over the last 6 months just to “be there for the client”. Fuuuuuck that. Really just need someone to tell me it gets better because right now I am failing to see any way out. On the other hand, I really do not see how anything could be worse than staying in my current seat. Would really appreciate any insight on things getting better after the analyst years
Just an analyst but I use ‘advisor bitch’ all the time!! Fuck being retained and expected to give up your life- same for lawyers, consultants, and even accountants. We need ownership so we can boss them around. It’ll be busy but good at PE, you’re the shot caller.
MF PE associate life sucks. It will be marginally better but not really. You might have more "flexibility" as you move up, but the stress intensifies disproportionately due to politics and portcos.
As someone who did the tough Ib grind and works in MF PE now I can firmly say that it is worse. Working on a live deal sprint in PE is probably the worst I’ve ever had it in PE.
My typical hours (deal hours can be very high like 100 hour weeks) are maybe slightly lighter on average than in IB but in IB you do mindless work whereas in PE you have to think more and that can be very draining. On top of that the work is much more high stakes and stressful. The grass is potentially greener in some PE firms but I feel like it is not the case in MF PE which is a stressful job.
God damn it :( what have I done
If you landed MF PE, you can for sure land MM PE at a more culture oriented place, but I think the offer you secured will be really valuable for long term career prospects. Stick it out and go to B-school or go corporate after some time?
Honestly retweet for my MM firm as well. I agree, I’m sure there are some cases of better funds but a whole damn lot of them suck lol.
Are you starting at this MF in 2025? If so, I wouldn't prioritize keeping the offer over your own well-being. It's a resounding answer here that PE won't be better, and I tend to agree unless you are at a unique fund. Also remember to factor in your own macro view of 2025 and where your fund is in the lifecycle -- if we are in the upswing of a new bull cycle, you will be very busy. If you also have a new fund to deploy, you will be doubly busy. Portfolio company work can be managed to some extent but live deals cannot.
Honestly, I will share my conclusion with you, you are free to disagree, but I think the days of committing to a 2 year formal program and then going to business school are behind us. Post-covid, when there are so many opportunities spanning the WLB / Hybrid work / Comp spectrum, I think that makes this structured path much more fluid and you will see a wider dispersion of outcomes from folks who start their careers in IB / PE, and not necessarily to the downside in terms of comp. In general, I've also observed that people are much more caring about themselves and their personal relationships post-COVID.
If you decide your mindset has also shifted, and you are able to confidently rank order your values at this stage of your life, I wouldn't regret acting by that list, even if that means not joining this fund. If you are not sure of your values, I also offer my 2 cents here, which is that you can answer that question by the choices you make, i.e. the values you choose to live by in the end are your values.
Rare, insightful and helpful WSO post
If you enjoy autonomy you’ll be fine. I hated working for clients or ‘bosses’ marginally more experienced than me but undoubtedly much dumber. In PE you can run your own show to a large extent once you’ve proven to be competent (probably takes 1.5-2 years). Total grind but could be worth it. Once in the carry the incentives are different too. The skillset is very different as well so you’ll learns lots of new stuff
It’s better to try and quit than to not try and regret. You won’t get this opportunity back. You can always quit if you don’t like it
Final note, I was hugely burned out too when switching jobs. A few weeks and a new environment can do wonders. Don’t project your current feelings onto your new gig before you even start it. Give it a real chance
I’m not at a MF, but an UMM PE.
Not sure why people who are at MFs seem to think WLB is any better than at a non-MF. Many of the companies we invest into are not public, so you don’t have the benefit of getting up to speed on a business as quickly than at a MF, where there is extensive and more transparent information that is not only “cleaner” but also regulated (by SEC) and audited, etc.
Not discounting hours aren’t worse at a MF but just want to make the general comment.
In my experience, coming out after a top BB IBD program, my associate hours at said MM fund was comparable to my IB hours. HOWEVER, hours in the latter are more “stressful” in my opinion. More thought and more autonomy procures that stress. Unlike in banking, where you have layers above you to check and draft “test” a work product, there is lesser structure in PE imo.
The benefit of PE is you do have a bit more visibility on your schedule. We aren’t pitching like an IBanker, and so the hours spent are actually more value additive than the average hour in IB if that makes sense.
In my experience, the physical exhaustion is slightly less than IB but the cerebral intensity is greater in PE.
Vast majority of MF deals aren't take privates either.
Agree that UMM and MF hours are quite similar but much more common in the MM for funds to by run by folks who are more family oriented/relaxed which translates to better WLB for juniors especially when not in deal sprints.
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Something this thread seems to be lacking is the fact that your experience in PE depends largely on your specific future firm. Not all MFs are the same, and I don’t know why people act like they are. I’m at a MF and have friends at others, and our experiences have been pretty different. Some are more chill than others, and that’s just a fact. I work at one of the “chiller” MF mentioned on WSO and absolutely get enough sleep when averaged throughout the year. I usually have most of the weekends free. It’s a grind but it’s bearable and I feel healthy most of the time. I have a friend at BX who has had a very different experience. Dude grinds as bad as what I hear IB EBs are like. So, I think it depends.
OP, what firm are you going to? This would probably help people give you a better perspective on what you’re looking at for your next job. Asking for reassurance from any and all PE juniors on a site full of finance bros is going to get you answers that skew pessimistic. People who frequent WSO typically love to tell others how hard their experience is going to be, “what they’re in for,” as opposed to more optimistic/rational answers because crushing morale gives some people a feeling of power. That’s not to say the people who commented before me are not telling the truth; they very well might be sharing their experiences perfectly accurately, but you should keep in mind that you’re likely missing out on a bunch of positive perspectives as well, because the people who have them are less likely to share them here.
Probably the best sense you can get is just reaching out to juniors currently at your future firm. There will undoubtedly be one or two who aren’t complete douches and won’t judge you for trying to gauge what the lifestyle is like. Try to build a bit of a friendly rapport with those juniors and then get a sense of what their WLB is like. You don’t have to come right out and ask “how many hours do you average a week?” (you can usually tell by asking other, less direct questions), but if they’re nice people, they won’t care if you ask because you’re trying to figure out what your life might look like upon joining.
Not op but what have you heard about cd&r/kkr generally?
Both are a grind, don’t expect any real WLB
I'm currently at a MM firm with a good WLB. OP, you should consider looking at MM in addition to MF.
When you are going through interviews, be sure to ask a few questions about culture, typical day in the life, etc. Before taking the offer, be sure to do a channel check with Associates who currently work there (or have worked there in the past) to get a "straight" answer on hours. Signs that there is good WLB is if mid/senior folks generally have families (beware the 35-40 year old principal who is single, has no life and is at work all the time), if Associates confirm that the firm respects holidays (and weekends to an extent), and if deal teams follow an "80/20" principal rather than boiling the ocean every diligence question.
I'm an interviewer at my firm and typically will tell potential newcomers what they should expect for hours during the interview but know this typically isn't the norm for other shops so be sure to do some channel checks in the later part of the interview stage! Good luck
Mostly whenever I hear about PE and the latest topics created regarding PE, has been the lack of WLB. Quite concerning and sad to see.
Thinking back, thebrofessor mentioned living below your means and saving so you can have options to take so you are not stuck in situations like this, for example.
See if you’re able to find a MM to join, reduced hours.
If you're looking for WLB then MF PE was not the right decision.
At the junior level you don't really get any carry either.
If you're moving to PE then MM PE seems to have the WLB amd if it's a smaller shop you're more likely to get sone carry from early on.
Don’t ask questions you don’t want the answers to. PE is way worse than I could’ve expected
ASSO2 at MF PE (ignore title). Partially a rant, but hope to also provide some tangible advice. Warning - this is fairly long.
To start off, PE deal sprints are arguably the worst experience you can have as a junior in any field of finance. Did my banking stint at one of the notoriously sweaty IB groups, and the one thing that my ex-classmates agree on is that people really don't talk about how bad a MF PE deal sprint can be. As mentioned above, the associate is in charge of all PPT slide creation, all model/excel, and all other deal-related gruntwork (scheduling, agendas, notes, etc.). Often with no one checking your work in-depth and having to send directly to MD/Partners. For context on hours, my last sprint was ~2 months of working ~8am to around ~3am, including most Saturdays/Sundays. Have had stretches like this in banking, but again, the amount of stress is incomparable given the level of responsibility. It's much harder to design, think through, and type up a page on investment thesis/risks at 2am than spread comps. High pressure and high stakes, particularly when IC is involved. No associate, VP, and director checking your work. If work is checked, it will be high-level (often, no one is checking your model in-depth). No shooting the shit or making self-deprecating jokes with your bullpen. VP+ folks love this job and will unironically get hard about conjecturing the impact of one SG&A assumption to IRR (great - we have a 0.3% boost. Maybe that'll change ICs mind). No more IB VPs after an all-nighter saying "great work - take the afternoon off and let's sync tonight or tomorrow AM if something urgent comes up". In PE, your VP responds at 7pm after all their meetings saying "great work. Seeing based off your analysis a few troubling gross margin trends. Let's run 2-3 more analysis before tomorrow's 10am management meeting to dig into this more and to be able to ask the correct questions". On and on and on, until you either win the deal (and have the honor of handling all of this company's headaches for the rest of your time at the firm) or get outbid by 25%, making all that work pointless.
From a more personal level, we're starting to get to the age now where this kind of lifestyle is definitely questionable. It's hard to just brush off brutal nights (and all of the above) with the internal dialogue of "I'm a young 22 year old out of undergrad - what else would I do but work hard?". 26 now, body can't handle ~4-5 hours of sleep as well anymore, etc. We may be somewhat young still, but we no longer are just young kids who have nothing else to do but grind and get belligerent at the Spaniard on weekends. The fact that late 20s/30s is coming in the blink of an eye begins to really be internalized. Beyond the physical component and perhaps most importantly, if you are a normal individual that isn't mindlessly obsessed with just prestige, you also start at this age to piece together a much stronger understanding of your strengths, what you want out of life, what kind of industry or type of work interests you, etc. Some people "give up" their hopes and dreams and end up as that emotionless VP in PE/IB, but for me, I haven't been able to do that. And that ultimately creates a lot more angst / existential dread in your mind, because the disconnect between your life vision vs. your reality grows stronger and stronger each day. I also think when I was in IB, I still had some sort of this complex where I wanted to prove to myself that I could exceed in MF PE. Maybe because I was insecure, but maybe just because I'm naturally competitive and wanted to be in the most competitive environment. Now that I've proved that to myself that I belong, it's harder and harder to "justify" getting grinded to a pulp until 3am. I know I can produce top notch work, handle multiple workstreams, and to put it simply, "be a machine". Hard to do this for a cause I'm not passionate about though.
Now, counterargument to all of the above is that IB/PE in many ways has allowed me to think and approach life like a professional. Looking back at some of the things I said and thought in college, my overall ability to think like a professional is night and day. You know when you were in high school and look back at yourself in middle school and thought how "elementary" you were? It's a similar feeling. My ultimate dream is entrepreneurship (will likely require a pit stop in Corp Dev / startup to gain operating experience first), and I truly believe these 4 years have provided invaluable experience. Yes, the "technical" parts of the job are helpful (i.e., modeling, PPT, understand business models, transaction structuring, capital markets, etc) but more-so I think it's just the broader "professional development" that IB/PE provides. Being in board meetings, understanding how strong management teams talk, seeing how your MDs/Partners sell or negotiate, etc.
Now, to actually answer your question / deliberation OP, the real question then is how helpful the incremental 2-3 years in PE is (versus having just done IB and leaving). The professional answer here is this again obviously depends on what you want to do. If you have absolutely no sense of clarity, I would just do PE, and in the process of doing so, would try to proactively think through what you want out of your career/life.
If you do have a sector/industry (or even type of work) that you are certain of or know that interests you, I truly don't think PE is necessary. Why? Well, the extra modeling skills in PE won't change or define your career (you won't be modeling when you're 40, or even 30). Really all that you come out with is a better ability to understand and think through businesses, but even this skill I think I learned fairly well after 5-6 months into the job. And for a motivated analyst like you (who is clearly able to do well in IB and do well enough to land a MF offer), I think you could leave for a different opportunity and excel. You've proven everything you need about yourself to yourself already. From a logistical perspective, if it's a sector you're passionate about, you'll typically learn the ins and outs of that industry (trends, business models, etc.) fairly quickly anyways if you join a company/startup (perhaps even stronger than you would at PE over the long run!). Lastly, if it's about the money, here's what I will say: the bonuses in PE are definitely great (huge lump-sum of savings), but you don't feel much richer than you do at IB on a day to day standpoint since most MF PE base is at $150K (and that's likely fairly close to IB). You can easily get a Corp Dev / strategy role with a base this high and feel "equally rich" on a daily basis (except bonuses obviously).
What I will say here is regardless of what you do, never let your "dreams" or "that dog in you" lol die. The moment you do is the moment I think you're truly screwed. For a very few folks here, their dream is literally to be a partner at a MF. These are the people who typically end up as partner at a MF. If that isn't your dream, then don't play in someone else's dream. You won't win. Or you will, but at significant cost to your health, family, soul, etc.
Chase your own dreams, play within your own skillset, and absolutely excel/crush it at that. As long as you don't lose that fire in you and are able to chase your dreams with passion (and a tangible road map), you (and everyone else here) will be fine.
Great post.
Just curious, what’s driving such long hours on a “slow day”? Are junior folks working on portfolio work?
I’ve always wondered how exactly BX or KKR extracts “value creation” from a business that is already having $1B of EBITDA.
As I don’t know how it’s at a MF, but in UMM, even junior folks are pretty involved on portfolio management. We can’t rely as much as management to handle the business to achieve growth plans and there’s more hand holding. Also, the opportunity set is more fragmented so there are a lot of processes happening by virtue thereof.
Lots of portfolio work, but there always seems to be enough non-portco work flying around as well (new prospect evaluation, thematic work, random small admin tasks, etc).
Agree with the value creation point overall (i.e. feel as if opportunity to truly assist is inversely correlated with company size), and that’s likely why most MFs focused significantly on cost cutting (easiest and quickest lever to pull). Would point out however that like half of MFs and UMMs either actively play or at least tinker in the growth space (KKR, Warburg, etc).
Growth investing and growth companies sound “sexier”, but for associates this often just means less developed FP&A functions and a lot more operational handholding. On the flip side though, value creation and PortCo work with these companies that involves top-line growth can be a lot more interesting and helpful for entrepreneurship and startups (new market / product expansion analysis in particular).
This was a fantastic line:
"On and on and on, until you either win the deal (and have the honor of handling all of this company's headaches for the rest of your time at the firm) or get outbid by 25%, making all that work pointless."
Echoing what others have said - great post.
I'm also in PE right now and more interested in how you described the role in ways that surprised me.
Is there something unique about your group vs. your peers in PE? My models are being evaluated in great detail by a more senior associate + VP, I often have another associate on the deal when it starts to get heated, and most things I send to a partner have most definitely been vetted by others.
Doesn't mean the hours aren't bad, but just shocked at how you described the role and curious whether that's more normal than what I've experienced
Yeah I've seen that staffing ratios and general delegation of workstreams is extremely shop-dependent (and even group-dependent within the same firm). Seems like your shop is on the better end (two associates on each deal, VP that is expected to check all excel/PPT, etc.) and mine/other shops are on the other end (one associate on each deal typically, some VPs who check work but others who only check PPT, etc.).
I think this is a frequently overlooked factor that determines culture/WLB, and definitely a question that analysts should ask about during interviews (i.e. how are deal teams staffed). Splitting the workstreams with a senior associate (or even having them just check your work even if they don't do anything) is the difference between working until 10-11pm on a live deal for 1-2 months straight versus 4-5am.
Have you thought about becoming an author? Your ability to organize and communicate your thoughts is amazing.
You’re much more eloquent than I am, but absolutely agree with everything even at a MM/UMM. The one difference in my experience was maybe less responsibility / ownership given we had a ridiculous number of layers in deal teams. Still associate doing all the work, but more so just getting scrutinized left and right rather than feeling the pressure to be perfect. Potentially a little less internal stress but instead more wasted hours of turning some really dumb comments.
^Know this was more high-level, but happy to answer any other questions on day to day as well. To actually answer your point/questions on vacation, it's actually been borderline worse for me (and most my friends) in MF PE. Overall expectation in PE is to be plugged in 24/7 even when you take PTO (not like IBD when you take vacation and your associates/other analysts typically cover for you). For overall WLB, incomparable as mentioned above when you're on a live deal sprint. When you're not, things are slower but really not slow enough to recover from the PTSD of the deal sprint (at most MFs, when things are "slow", you'll still be working from 8:30am-~9pm but that work is actual work, not IBD work when you're twiddling your thumbs for comments for 3-4 hours of the day).
If you want wlb, you can pick a LMM with very slow dealflows. If you want money, you can pick a MF. If you want both money and wlb, go to hedge fund. It’s not like you don’t have options
Fair but don't always think equating "slow deal flow" to WLB is fair. Agree that LMM has the potential to be great, but as many people have mentioned, lot of the times LMM PE firms are even worse than UMM/MF PE (less structure, more responsibilities, leaner associate classes, less pay). Could be harder to get promoted at many LMMs as well as they're typically led by one or two founders that are less receptive to sharing economics.
HF gives you WLB but a much different type of stress than PE (lots of stress trading quarters at a MM and the SM model is arguably dying, but that's a whole separate topic...).
Short answer is there's no free lunch lol and the approach to try to "optimize everything" at age 24-26 is hilarious/dumb. If you want to make BIG $ (i.e. millions), you will need to grind in way or another (either trying to climb the PE/IB ladder, going through the risk, pain and ups and downs of entrepreneurship, etc). There's no way around it. If you don't care about big money and just want a steady job until retirement, totally fine too. But trust me, there's a lot easier (and more fun) ways to make $300K a year then as a VP at a LMM PE fund in NYC.
There's literally 20 year old e-commerce/dropshipping kids making that much. And yes, agree that 90% of these kids are memes / scams / grifters, but saying this more-so as an extreme example to show that there are so many different ways to make money that people with "NYC high-finance tunnel vision" are unable (or just refuse to) see.
Fair warning that many LMM's have pretty awful work life balance and you don't have the benefit of rationalizing it with the big comp (lmm is a fair bit below ibd these days). A PE diligence process for a small deal can be just as intense as a large deal and a lot of times the target's financials are an absolute disaster - literally reconstructing quickbook P&Ls. Also politics can be extreme since limited spots at the top of the pyramid - guess what, those co-founders are never giving up their carry and it's a knife fight to get the other couple of spots. Also dealing with people who know this is their shot at PE partner as lateraling harder.
Point being - do your f'ing homework as much as possible on culture before signing up for a lmm that you hope is a wlb trade.
2 years as an associate at LMM fund. Newer fund, investing out of fund II that is around $500M. For peoples reference, I will echo the comments made by the Aso 2 at the MF. Even in the LMM, I work significantly more than I did in banking. The deal sprints are not even sprints. In banking you may sprint for a day or a few days, while in PE I am typically sprinting for several weeks if not several months. Then the deal, more often than not, falls away. To the point above, with no real sources dedicated to back office, the deal teams are responsible for all LP requests, quarterly marks / reporting, etc. on top of live deal work and asset management work of the portfolio. All for a discount of what MF PE is paying. There is a perception if you got to LMM, then you’re going to be able to work 9-5. I literally don’t remember the last holiday I didn’t work. Hell, I had 4 4am nights over the last week. 2 of those coming on New Year’s Eve and New Year’s Day. Worked Christmas Eve. So yes, do your diligence
At an MF going to make VP this year and I'm getting anxious reading all these responses. I certainly did have soul-crushing times (maybe 1-2 months a year) but overall thought my associate stint was much better than banking.
Wow - sounds awesome in all honesty and congrats on the promote as well. There are definitely cases (like yours it seems!) where stars align (great group, good culture, etc.) so would of course take that into consideration...Have about 7-8 friends at MF PE and would say 5 are dying (notably worse than IBD), 1 is absolutely chilling (been working like 9am-7pm for over a year), and the other is somewhere in between. Seems like that ratio has been similar with UMM friends as well.
Not enough data points to opine on LMM/MM..
You will still work long hours. The work will be very similar to what gets done in IB.
The only real change is that there is more certainty in your long hours. There will be far less “it is 4:45 and your boss just dropped 5 hours of work on your desk.” You’ll still work long hours, and that will still happen from time to time, but you’ll be far more aware of the long hours, earlier.
Like you may work til 1am two days a week for two months but that will be a normal cadence for you for two months as you work through the second stage DD of the deal you are on. You will have a far greater ability to plan around the long hours because you will often know those long hours ahead of time
Out of curiosity, any of you guys considered the possibility to jump back into banking? Currently working at a large fund as well, and wondering if it would make sense. Definitely not happy with my experience for various reasons.
Bump
I personally haven't considered this, but have been seeing and hearing of more and more folks jump back into banking after 1 or 2 years of PE (not just 1 or 2 people, I'm talking a really noticeable amount).
Not sure why, but assume lot of it has to do with the comradery of IB along with the the increased stress in PE. Guys, after you go through a brutal deal sprint in PE, you realize that working in IB as an associate would quite literally be paradise/a vacation.
The climb to the top in PE is becoming more and more saturated as well, and associates aren't blind to it...and as a result, the old 2+2+2+Return to PE as VP path seems to be less common and less desired. And even if you can get that VP promote, the "partner track guarantee" is no longer a thing as well.
I can echo the comments here - the promotion cycle in buyside is definitely worse from what I've seen, although some funds are getting smarter now changing the title system to be more in line with banking (so you see funds like EQT promotes associates to VPs after 2-3 years vs. other old school funds still do 2 year associate + 2 year senior associates then VP). But still overall the path to partner is much more difficult than 5 years ago. In banking when you hire an MD you have the objective of increasing revenue with this hire and you also build a new team below this MD. In PE, when you are not raising new funds as successfully as the past, promoting every new partner means taking a slice from a limited pool - management fee will not increase from these promotions.
I thought about it but ended up in corporate instead. It was certainly a very real consideration and I opened the door to those conversations already as a backup plan.
Ultimately I didn’t because I landed a job with decently high comp for a corporate gig, and that was admittedly the main hesitation that would’ve had me considering IB again. Had I not gotten relatively lucky, if my search went on fruitlessly for another month or two, I probably would’ve pulled the trigger on going back to my original bank.
Can you please talk a little bit about that process to finding those higher paying corporate gigs? Trying to level set on what I can really expect after my associate stint
I think I’d kms if I’d went back to banking. Regardless of differences in actual job, I couldn’t stand how incompetent and lack of value add 50-% of bankers were - like run some stupid analysis all night that wasn’t asked for and never gets used, or MBA associates telling adding absolutely nothing. At least in PE the people are competent.
have you considered trying to lateral into DJing?
Please read this post in its entirety: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/private-equity/why-the-grass-isnt-greener-the-private-equity-associate-crisis-peac.
Coming from an ASO2, it's the best way I've seen anyone describe how it really feels to work in PE or even PC as an associate.
Put simply, if you're at all worried that PE will be like IB, don't do PE. As mentioned in the post linked above, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.
Just read the post you tagged here and it’s crazy how much I resonate with every part. A great share
I have personally found the day to day of investing much more interesting than advisory. If you find you don’t like it, your background will still be very attractive for roles with better WLB. Could also find a fund with good culture downstream from MF.
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