Deciding Between Sales and Trading.... 
(Chimp, 3 
Points) on 3/20/10 at 4:13am
So I've accepted a SA offer from a top BB firm for their sales and trading position, and soon I will need to send my position preferences to them (they're using my feedback, combined with interviewer feedback to place me between the two functions). Problem is, I'm having trouble deciding between sales and trading.
While I know that my experience in the summer will influence my decision most, I do have a few questions about the issue. 1) is sales, even at a top firm and in a technical product, considered less prestigious? 2) is it possible to switch between the two functions early in your career? 3) the firm I'm joining has extensive prop trading activities, and while I understand that prop traders need to be the top performers, generally how hard is it to break into prop trading from flow trading?
During the interview process, I received mixed feedback from the people interviewing me, some recommending sales, while others saying trading. I have been placed in a rotation for their fixed income, currency, and commodities program, and i have a particular interest in FI, although I find all these products interesting.
I do come from a pretty technical background, and have a 4.0 in finance as well as math at a supertarget(I'm not saying I know shit, because truth be told I don't, but I do want to express that I'm very comfortable in an analytical role), but I really enjoy the concept of interacting with clients constantly, something sales will provide. That said, trading really excites me as well, and so I'm having a tough time making a decision.
I understand that the last question may require an entirely different post. Also, I understand that prestige is a touchy matter, and I doubt sales being less prestigious would hinder me much, but I'm simply trying to evaluate what the Street's sentiment on the matter is because I see a lot of comments being made about sales being a joke, and I wonder if those comments are truthful or simply facetious...
I really do appreciate anyone's thoughts on the matter, and thanks in advance.
This really sounds like
by jtbbdxbnycmadThis really sounds like Goldman Sachs (lots of prop trading, FICC division).
I'd say more people are drawn to trading, so if you want to increase the likelihood of getting a FT offer (and if I'm right about your potential internship employer, the conversion rates are only around 50 per cent), I would imagine there is less competition for the broker spots (sales).
As far as the human side, you'll be more involved in networking events, and you'll be much more engaged with the buyside, giving them color on the markets, etc - if this is what you mean by interacting with people, then it may be for you.
Upwards potential differs, as well. Traders are measured by their PnL, and tend to deepen their specialization over time. Purely based on anecdotal evidence, brokers that display leadership potential can really make it to the top: compare Blankfein and Mack (both former salesmen) to Pandit (former trader and hedge fund manager). On the downside, salesmen are generally considered less market/risk management-savvy than traders (your clients will regard you more as an information source, a thermometer for the market, rather than an analytical partner), and unless they end up running the entire division, over time they will make less than their trading counterparts.
The relevance of all this is partly predicated on your time horizon. Flow traders exist to provide liquidity to a market; the more liquid an asset becomes, the more the function will be commoditized and eventually replaced by technology (look at cash equities, for instance). This won't be as relevant in prop trading, of course. Brokers, on the other hand, will likely always be around, in some form or another, as the buyside will always need someone to color the market for them. There are a lot more salesmen for cash equities today than there are flow traders.
Hope this helps. Good luck, you sound like you're in a great position.
1) is sales, even at a top
by GutShot1) is sales, even at a top firm and in a technical product, considered less prestigious?
a bit but again don't believe what everyone says, you still need to know your shit
2) is it possible to switch between the two functions early in your career?
Depends on firm and desk and culture but generally yes
3) the firm I'm joining has extensive prop trading activities, and while I understand that prop traders need to be the top performers, generally how hard is it to break into prop trading from flow trading?
If you're great at flow it's not uncommon, you'll have a small prop book anyway on the side although now we're talking like 3-4 years at least down the line before you could trade your own book
Thanks a lot jtbbdxbnycmad
by wsobeginner32Thanks a lot jtbbdxbnycmad and GutShot, I really appreciate it, I really just wanted a few opinions so I knew what I was getting into. Ultimately I do understand that my experiences this summer will matter the most in making this decision, but the things you guys have said are helping put each role in context for me, so thanks for that.
you will know in your gut
by Batrick Patemanyou will know in your gut where you belong, and believe me, with your lack of experience its all you got.
For me it was really hard since every douche says they want to be a trader. its like every 6 year old wanting to be an astronaute. it never made any sense to me and i questioned it..until i realized i wanted to be in sales
IS sales less prestigious? only by name...cause trader sounds cool...but it isint.
whats the diff...where i work, traders are geeks, not too apt at social contact, but can hedge their rist impeccably.
sales boys are the men who can brawl with the criminals and then turn around and have a super quanty conversation with a knowledgable client. You need to be everyone, and you need to know everything.
Traders are more like rogues vs sales guys are rowdy types who can be quiet if need be
if you want to absorb and breathe the markets, both will give you your fix
I agree with a lot of the
by m.c.traderI agree with a lot of the stuff said but I would personally say, as someone starting a potential career, start on the Trading side if you can do it. It sounds like you already may have some of the abilities that good salesman have (if you got a GS offer and aren't bsing in your post), those abilities are god given while trading is.....a trade.....and needs to be learned....also focusing your summer on trading will help you figure shit out.
It'll be easier to go from Trading to Sales (unless you are super valuable) imo and depending where you're career takes you a lot of Traders are salesmen now unlike back in the 80's when there was a clear distinction between the two positions.
I sat at a desk at a BB over this winter and the MD was a trader but he and his team were functioning as salesmen. Obviously it was insititutional, not prop, so thats a different story....but who knows if you'll even be able to Prop trade at a BB once Obama is out of office? In which case, if you move into the HF world, you'll likely be more valuable if you have a strong trading background.
Batrick Pateman wrote: you
by Bondarbyou will know in your gut where you belong, and believe me, with your lack of experience its all you got.
For me it was really hard since every douche says they want to be a trader. its like every 6 year old wanting to be an astronaute. it never made any sense to me and i questioned it..until i realized i wanted to be in sales
IS sales less prestigious? only by name...cause trader sounds cool...but it isint.
whats the diff...where i work, traders are geeks, not too apt at social contact, but can hedge their rist impeccably.
sales boys are the men who can brawl with the criminals and then turn around and have a super quanty conversation with a knowledgable client. You need to be everyone, and you need to know everything.
Traders are more like rogues vs sales guys are rowdy types who can be quiet if need be
if you want to absorb and breathe the markets, both will give you your fix
cmon..."sales boys are the men who can brawl with the criminals"...puhlease...normal night for a salesman is hardly brawling with the criminals...more like, "get drunk at a boring irish bar, listen with a plastic smile while arrogant hedge fund guy drones on for hours about topics his trophy wife wont listen to, and call everyone 'buddy'"...
Just try to experience both.
by themacroguyJust try to experience both. Don't be set on either coming in, and see which side you enjoy more/think you would excel in.
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Bondarb wrote: Batrick
by Batrick Patemanyou will know in your gut where you belong, and believe me, with your lack of experience its all you got.
For me it was really hard since every douche says they want to be a trader. its like every 6 year old wanting to be an astronaute. it never made any sense to me and i questioned it..until i realized i wanted to be in sales
IS sales less prestigious? only by name...cause trader sounds cool...but it isint.
whats the diff...where i work, traders are geeks, not too apt at social contact, but can hedge their rist impeccably.
sales boys are the men who can brawl with the criminals and then turn around and have a super quanty conversation with a knowledgable client. You need to be everyone, and you need to know everything.
Traders are more like rogues vs sales guys are rowdy types who can be quiet if need be
if you want to absorb and breathe the markets, both will give you your fix
cmon..."sales boys are the men who can brawl with the criminals"...puhlease...normal night for a salesman is hardly brawling with the criminals...more like, "get drunk at a boring irish bar, listen with a plastic smile while arrogant hedge fund guy drones on for hours about topics his trophy wife wont listen to, and call everyone 'buddy'"...
it was an exaggeration to being out a point : "sales ppl need to be able to communicate and get along with all walks of life"
cmon yourself...
also, think about where you'd
by GutShotalso, think about where you'd be more competitive