Help! Should I Quit?
I am a frequent poster but using a throw away account to remain anonymous
Here's my story...
I graduated last year with 3.2 Cumulative GPA, 3.7 Finance GPA and also a honor in economics from a non-target and no job lined up to pay bills. I actually did 4 internships during school year (PWM, Fixed Income Research at a small shop, M&A advisor at a 2 person shop, and financial analyst at a local firm) and received a return offer from the boutique advisor but I declined, because most of the time I was building their salesforce industry database. I was also feeling confident that I would be able to get something better. I networked last summer and found it very hard to even land interviews for some reason. After much trying I was able to convert an interview to an offer in the Asset Management group of a real estate management firm (approx. $1.5B AUM) but the pay is only $40K. I have no interest in real estate whatsoever but took this position because the other option I could see was unemployment. My student loan debt, though not much, is $35k. I am also taking care of my younger siblings, paying rent, their car insurance and bills and e.t.c so I am just surviving on ramen noodles, 96 civic with engine light and free graham bars at work.
I don't mind the long hours but I simply don't have any interest in this asset class. I am doing the same stuff that analyst in other big shops are doing...Asset Mangement. I also hate the culture here, which has forced me to further not take any remaining interest and so I want to move out ASAP. I am thinking to go for a target MSF for fall of this year and come out of that program with a very strong GPA and with access to good OCR. I will also be taking CFA Level 1 in Dec of this year.
I spoke with the admission counselor of a few MSF program and I think a decent GRE/gmat score will get me the admit ticket given I have high major/minor gpa and a lot more work experience. The problem is that the last round deadline is mid of next month and with my long work hour schedule, I simply can't focus and/or improve the GRE/GMAT.
Should I just quit my job within couple of days and focus solely on GRE/GMAT for the next 20-25 days, given I dont like the work, pay is way too low and the culture is toxic??? As a backup, if I dont get into my choice of school then my undergrad school (non-target, no OCR) is completely fine with taking me in their MSF program..
What are your thoughts? @TNA" @CRE" @Virginia Tech 4ever" @DickFuld" @Edmundo Braverman"
I would try to test the waters and network a bit to see if you can jump into a similar role outside of real estate. It'll be tough, because real estate AM is not really that similar to other asset classes, but you're still young so it's worth a try before you take on another 50k+ in debt.
What are long hours, if it's 9am-7pm I still think you have time to devote to studying for the GMAT/GRE? Also how would you support yourself if you go back to school, it sounds like you are having a difficult time with paying family responsibilities with a full-time job?
cre_questions exactly.. I spoke with a few people and they all in some ways hinted that real estate AM experience is not something that I should expect to help me in switching to equity or FI desk
C.R.E. Shervin Its usually 8 to 7. I am putting 3 hrs on weekday at local food place after work to make ends meet.. my sibilings are freshman/sophomore in college and so they are living with me and I end up paying rent for a bigger house, more phone bills, three car insurance, more food cost , etc.
I have also been working 16 hrs at the food place during weekends and have saved up roughly enough that I would need to take out $30K in federal grad loans (given I dont get any scholroships or aid) and will likely end up with total $60k max in debt after my masters
I truly feel for you, that is a hard place to be.
I have no idea what a MSF will do for your recruiting prospects, I mean I literally don't know. I would really dig deed into the numbers.
The only helpful thing I could think of is if you are really contemplating quitting, seriously quitting, then talk to your boss or boss's boss. Talk to someone senior who has obligations similar to yours, explain that you are working an extra job on the weekend because the salary is not livable in your market. Explain that you like the job and you work but $14 an hour(which is around what it breaks down to), is not enough to literally survive. If they value you, they will give you a raise or spot bonus, or they might say that it is not possible for a number of reasons. I mean asset managers for a property management company don't really make that much(60k) with 5-7 years of experience.
$40,000/year is absurd. You should definitely use your experience to at least lateral to another firm.
Have you tried recruiters/applying for other jobs? You should really switch given how low the salary is but I don't it makes much sense to leave and go back to school, to borrow even more money... Also I get not being interested in RE in the long run, but that's not a reason to not leverage your current skill set for other higher paying jobs. Masters are a way for people who don't know what they want to do, to buy more time and spend a hell of a lot more money.
40k does seem low. Are you getting a bonus at all with that? If you have been there for a year, have you been through a review/raise cycle yet?
Getting an MSF is a good way to transition into trading/AM or is useful if you are trying to relocate and want to take advantage of the alumni network. However, given that you are only a year out of school, my advice is to hold off on the MSF for at least this year and spend the time trying to lateral into a new job + studying for the CFA + GMAT, especially since you are bucking against application deadlines.
The last thing you really want is to find yourself without a job and without a school to attend in the fall, especially if you have family to consider. You said that your backup plan is the non-target that you did your undergrad at, but if they don't have OCR, then getting the MSF there probably isn't going to help you much except putting you further into debt. To me, that is the masters you get because you are tied to a specific city/are interested in learning or are trying to check the "masters box" to get promoted because you are already in the industry and your work experience trumps the education (e.g. you are 45 and have been in RE since 22, but to make director your shop is demanding you get a masters). It isn't the one you get when you are in your 20s and trying to put together the most impressive resume possible so that you can break into a specific sector/industry.
Like others have said, the $40K/yr is terrible. You're getting royally screwed. That would be an insult even in Minnesota or some other flyover hick state...
You should be able to get 1.5x-2x the pay at a comparable firm somewhere decent.
As others have said - really tough situation and props for you at handling it the way you have so far. Get on selectleaders and reach out to a few headhunters. No need for an MSF and more debt. Sounds like you have been managing your time very well and perhaps taking some time off (im guessing you have paid vacation) to focus on ur resume and recruiting efforts should do the trick.
Also just as a side note, generally firms that offer very little compensation, particularly to first years, generally have a toxic culture. This isnt something that is often talked on WSO but unfortunately it is fairly common place even in a market like NYC (I worked at a firm like that as well). Keep your chin up and get out of there!
That's a shitty place to be in but why take on more debt by going back to school? Also how are you going to get through/taking care of your siblings if you're not making any income?
It sounds like your biggest concern is money. Going back to school makes that situation worse - especially if you come out still struggling to find a job.
My suggestion - ask for a raise from your superiors. Meanwhile, look to lateral to another firm. It's ok to be transparent as to why you're moving. It's absolutely ridiculous that you have to take on a second job to make ends meet. Have you talked to your siblings to ask them to help out as well?
TripleARated
I started 10 months ago with no prior experience in real estate and this is what I have done so far on weekly/monthly basis.
Should I be asking for a bump based on this experience?
In most circumstances asking a raise will not hurt you - they know they are paying you peanuts and you are likely to leave for a higher paying (or rather 'market pay') job after the end of your first year. This is unfortunately how a lot of RE places are run now, cycle through junior people by paying them peanuts and replace them every year or two and have no concept of employee retention.
The best way to handle this is to have a very objective approach - when you meet with your manager you could literally have a piece of paper for yourself with brief bullet points as to why you should get the raise. Major points you could and should bring up:
I) How quickly you have come up to speed & taken more responsibility II) Willingness to take on even more responsibility such as on the IRR stuff III) Compensation at other firms (w/ similar AUMs) in AM roles IV) The fact that not having to work 2 jobs will make you focus better on your current role - though I would tread carefully with this one
Given that you mentioned that the culture is less than great at your current firm, they are very likely to tell you to 'figure out your situation yourself' or 'go find another job that pays what you want' so just be mentally prepared for that. But apart from that, if you don't try the answer will always be no.
yes, I am actually eligible for the bonus from Sept of this year but I was also told that dont expect anything crazy.. I am guessing it will be around 7%-10% :)
TopChedder I am pretty sure I wont have trouble paying for the bills while I am doing my MSF. I have done some decent savings that will go towards the tution bill and my housing expense. To take care of sibling, this is what I have planned....I just filed my taxes last week as head of household so will probably be saving whatever I am getting back,, one of my sibling has a BB sophomore internship lined up so a little support from there, I will be also be interning during the semester if I go the Masters route, will cash out my lending club account, will cash out a 0% for 21 month credit card,, yeah.. thats the plan.
Couple notes:
If your hours are 8-7, and assuming limited/no weekends, you have plenty of time to study for the GMAT. Do NOT quit a job to study. I'm not trying to brag, but I was working same hours, while in grad school PT, and passed two levels of the CFA Exam in those two years. The pay sucks, but 40k is better than 0.
Do not rush into school. WAY too many people go into grad school hoping it will magically show them the career they want. I highly advise you to network externally very hard first and get an idea of what career you really want, what companies you want to work for, and who is going to help you accomplish that. This will be the best payoff for you. Once you've done that, establish your career, then use graduate school to boost you to the next level, but get your feet underneath you first.
Best of luck.
GoldenEagle2009 Do you think this holds true for Masters in Finance/Management degrees too? Most schools including Vanderbilt, UVA, Duke, have actually dinged applicants with 2+ years of experience. These graduate degrees are focused towards kids with little to no internship or work experience or someone who wants to switch fields right after graduating from an undergrad..
I am actually interested in the AM area but in Equity or FI research.. Will definately be taking the CFA level I this Dec
I did a PT MSF. There is no value in a non-target PT MSF unless you pair it with a CFA, because then it becomes the CFA with the network of a graduate school program. If you're talking about Vandy/Nova, etc. then that's slightly different, however, the CFA in my opinion is going to carry you further.
I honestly would prefer someone who got work experience over any amount of school, then did CFA over any MSF. I would really only consider the MSF as a backup to a solid full time MBA or CFA. Just my two cents.
If you're going to quit anyways, why not work with minimal effort and focus on studying?
You need to polish your resume, find a couple recruiters, and get the hell out of that place. Search for jobs on your own, go to coffee's, industry events etc.
I would not quit before you have something lined up.
This will make working at a place you hate easier knowing you will be out of there soon.
Also, tell your siblings to get off their ass and start contributing to living expenses.
amach3 I did it early on but then stopped... I guess, I have this random thought somewhere deep down that I may be asked [or it may look better] to submit a recommendation letter from supervisor and so I try to avoid it.
It isn't worth going back to school if you have current cash issues. I would try and network and negotiate a higher starting salary at your next position.
It isn't likely for your supervisor to raise your pay as it'll set an uncomfortable precedent - even if the reasons are totally legitimate in terms of cost-of-living and skill, it'll cause trouble for others at your level being paid 40.
If you're not entirely fond of the asset class you're working in; it's tough, but not impossible to switch down the road. I'd say your current priorities are more to take care of your family, and worry about your long-term career path later. One of the guys I know went from AM RE to work at Fortress PE and gained a huge pay bump in the process.
Like everyone else has said, props to you for taking care of your family and dealing with this tough situation.
I have taken a 20 day leave and will be -meeting few people that I have spoken to earlier at Duff & Phelps, Grey Steel, SunTrust -studying for the GRE -applying for other jobs
I will definitely be taking the CFA in Dec.. Thanks for the input guys. Really appreciate it. Will also update this thread regarding my decision...
Wow, you are in a tough spot....
First of all, I'm going to throw this out there....in the short term, perhaps there is an assistant job at a BB or something like that that you can try and get? I know, I know, it's a "female" job....it has a lack of prestige......but women have been using that way many years to get in the back door. It will give you a brand name on your resume and it will help you get a foot in the door and once you're in you can grow from there or move on. The best part is that it pays a LOT more than 40K....
Second, can you refinance your student loans? I did this, by calling up and making deals with the people who owned my student loans. It's a real PITA, but it worked for me.
The CFA I think will only help and not hurt and I wonder if there is a way that you can focus more time on studying for it. That being said, I would not quit until you had something else lined up.
Leaving Your Gig: Don't quit - it's always best to look for a job when you have a job. If you don't like RE then get out, but make sure that on your way out the door you don't burn any relationships. Do you have any mentors at your current firm? They might be willing to help you network and find a new job. As far as the toxic culture...at least you have learned what you don't like - think about this when considering future roles.
Graduate School: I would blow off the MSF/GMAT/GRE in favor of the CFA. If you pass level 1, your future employment opportunities should take off as a "Level II Candidate." More debt won't help anything.
Household Expenses: Kudos to you floating everything including a few siblings! If you have not done so already sit the family down and work out allowances so your expenses don't continue to increase. Keep everything transparent. See if your siblings can pick up a few hours on the weekend to help you out!
Good luck!
I am not quitting..I have taken 20 day leave and will be networking, meeting with few recruiters and alums, applying for other roles . Thanks for the input. Really appreciate it
40k is way to low for this role. I work in the back office and I make 150k and even that's low especially for front office roles. My concern for you is, when you enter the next big shop, they make you disclose your current income etc. and then usually peg the offer to your current pay + then some. So you're better off not doing time in CFA/GMAT etc. and just trying to get a new job, because even this new next job isn't going to pay you 100k knowing your previous comp.. so the CFA/GMAT can wait anyway.
However, my advice is irrelevant if you do succeed in getting a job where disclosing your current comp. does not become an issue.
Voluptatum sunt voluptatum minus nobis. Ex expedita sapiente libero dolorem qui et. Dolorem esse quia et et assumenda ea. Quam hic in aut omnis omnis. Et nemo voluptate eos maiores. Ut aut quibusdam aut et qui nihil qui ab. Repellat similique enim eaque neque.
Omnis cumque amet ex natus. Nemo odio doloribus consequatur iste et. Autem sit at sit autem. Excepturi nihil nisi veniam in consectetur nobis sit.
At atque tenetur perspiciatis excepturi. Est sed placeat enim magni.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Id nihil velit harum. Illum modi accusamus nostrum vel perferendis nihil.
Necessitatibus pariatur deserunt aliquid voluptatibus autem expedita. Nemo aut vel et.
Modi reprehenderit nam aspernatur consequatur sed tempora adipisci. Ab aut repellendus voluptatem voluptatibus voluptatem quia. Officia aut unde aut sed ut. Voluptates perspiciatis eos ut omnis. Sint voluptates occaecati totam qui dolor.
Possimus provident et culpa. Dolore ducimus dolor quia aut voluptatibus omnis ut. A ea mollitia alias dicta maxime. Et ullam minus dolorem voluptates.