Working Abroad in Investment Banking

Hey all just wanted to get some advice from people about working in IBD in Asia/LatAm/Europe.

I've talked to some people who believe that globalization and the rise of emerging markets will make an international perspective more important than ever over the next few years and that people who start their IB stint abroad in a place like Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai, Tokyo, Latin America, or London will be be better off than their counterparts who started off in an American city like NYC.

The other side of the coin is that there are unparalleled networking opportunities in cities like NYC/SF/Chicago, and when someone is abroad, they're completely out of the loop.

What do you all think? Would an opening stint in IBD in Asia/LatAm/Europe right out of college help or hurt your career? Is there value in working abroad?

 

I think another factor to consider could be what kind of offer you have on graduation. If it something that you are excited about, spending a couple of years in US before moving to another country is a better idea. If it isn't then maybe you can consider working abroad sooner rather than later. You'll make international contacts. Work in somewhat less competitive environment with more chances of moving up. And have international work experience on your resume when it comes time to move back home.

 

I would start in a major hub like NYC (if American), London (if European) or HK (if Asian). I think you will get better deals and training and in the start you have to learn so much, it would be hard to catch on the culture as well.

But I am not sure when or how one would go abroad if you want to go in PE. As I understand it you can go abroad within BBs starting year 3. But this is also the moment one tends to go into PE. Aside from the MF and upper MM funds, most don't seem to have big teams in all parts of the world. I assume that if you work in IBD in London, the fund won't hire/place you in HK, because you don't have any connections or know how the culture works. Would you first have to go to work for the BB abroad and while there recruit for PE?

Just curious if somebody has any insight in working abroad combined with working in PE.

 

Unrelated to the topic but are you Japanese per chance? Couldn't help but ask seeing your user name. The show wasn't the reason I got into banking which I currently work in, but can't say it didn't have a positive impact for me breaking into banking. Not to mention it makes explaining to my parents what I do for my job much easier (they're both native Japanese).

Always cool to see other Japanese people doing well in the field.

 

Exactly. Hong Kong - hiring only local Hong Kongies or Mainland Chinese. Singapore - had been seeing some push back against and now only trying to hire local Singaporeans. China - only Mainland Chinese. Japan - only native Japanese speakers only. South Korea - is the same thing. The only place that you can still get away with a repat hire is perhaps Thailand? But across the board, I am seeing that most Asian countries feel that they had sent enough people to study in foreign countries to have a sufficient repat pool that they can hire from.

 

Adding to what Naoki said, I'm American born Japanese with relatively fluent Japanese (almost business level) and while interviewing at the Boston Career Forum last year, I quickly learned that a lot of banks, even on the markets side (S&T) want almost native fluency.

Edit: Just in case anyone is going there this year or in the future, from my experience interviewing for S&T, Morgan Stanley wants at minimum business level, Barclays wants somewhere between native and business level, Mizuho Securities Asia (HK) wants between business and native Mandarin, Citigroup wants native level (their online test/survey was all in Japanese and time consuming).

 

I think US is the best place to do banking. Get paid the best (Europe is v. low / Asia has some benefits, but low bonus), hours are all right (Europe probably lighter / Asia is a slaughter house), and clients are ready to do deals (European companies are too intellectual and take too long to do anything / Asian companies are not nearly as sophisticated, require handholding, and the approval process is like pulling teeth because most things are state owned). More importantly however, I think if you plan to come back to the US in banking, international experience often does not translate well. Clients are totally different, industries are different, laws/regulations/markets are all different. Longer term, I've seen very mixed success in bankers trying to move around. Banking is a client services industry, and those relationships don't get built up over night. A lot of guys strike out because they can't make connections with clients who often prefer locals and speak the same language (literally).

From the other side, if you're trying to use banking to see the world, like... you won't leave the office. Go teach English or something if world travel is really the goal.

All that being said, I did two years in Asia before moving back to the US. Happy I did it ¯_(ツ)_/¯

 

One thing to know though is that although it may seem enticing to be one of those front-running locals in a place like HK, a lot of banks will do a lot of work for the bigger deals in NY, even if the deal is originated in HK. I say this because I was staffed on an Asia M&A deal that we essentially did for them; doubt any of the HK juniors saw much of the model or anything juicy.

 

What do you want to know? All major banks are present in Frankfurt. Although German is suggested, I do think you can make it without as most documents are done in English (atleast if you stick to the BBs) and everybody speaks English. Hours are propably the highest in Europe though.

 

I am starting a long-term internship (POE) in a top 3 investment banking in China next January (they also have an office in the U.S.) I would say that the investment banking markets in the U.S. and in Europe are still more mature than ours. The Chinese PE market is even more underdeveloped than IB. Another thing about us is we won't allow >49% of ownership from foreign banks. There is one and only one investment bank in China that's owned by a foreign bank, Citi, with a 51% ownership. But it's founded this year. And there are some differences on how Chinese banks do business.

If you are looking for international reputation, brand name, and there's no doubt that Goldman, MS, JPM, BAML, sound more reputable than CITIC, CICC, or Hai Tong in China. Out of the world of finance, however, I honestly don't think Lazard or Jeffries or DNE & Co. mean anything to people...

There is definitely value there, especially if you are in a top bank/top group. You are going to have very good exit opps in that country or maybe abroad, suppose the brand name is big enough.

In terms of compensation, for example, if you apply Chinese Yuan * ~7 = 1 dollar, then for sure you are going to be compensated less. But I think that's more of a macroeconomics problem for economists.

Persistency is Key
 

As someone who has had experience working abroad right after college, I think I can answer this question pretty well. During my junior year of college I met a recruiter for Mitsubishi Financial Bank. Afterwards, I found out they had a wonderful overseas graduate hiring program and eagerly applied. I worked in Japan for many years. It has truly impacted my career today by not only expanding my cultural knowledge, but also providing me with insight into the global financial markets. I am currently working in Germany, and love the place. Going global is the way to go for both good connections and experience.

 

Depends on what country and firm. Perception (reputation, resume sex appeal) : It matters a lot. Reality (practical skill set): It probably doesn't matter as much as you might think. (ability to do DCF math doesn't change).

Barriers to entry for American IBD Internship: Visa issues for foreigners, proximity (if you don't live in the city), perception / reputation of experience, credibility / conviction to move.

 

Agree. It's still very helpful, but for my school, there were a lot of foreign kids of "elites" from other countries, so while it's still great to have IB on your resume, there's a little discount factor applied to IB in say, HK or Shanghai or India, relative to an IB internship in the US (although of course those can be relationship hires too).

 

If you're looking for entry level IB jobs in places like Singapore or China because you think it'll be less competitive think again, IB is an extremely attractive field around the world and so it attracts the best of the best everywhere. There's no shortage of local kids in IB in Singapore and China who've attended top schools around the world who choose to come back home to work. Chances are if you're not very competitive for MM and boutique banks in the West you're not going to be that competitive for any IBs in Asia.

On top of that you have the language situation. Especially at the junior level it'll be extremely difficult, if not impossible, if you don't know Mandarin fluently in China or one of the local South East Asian languages in Singapore. And then obviously you also have the whole Visa situation...

I'd recommend to work for a few years at a global firm wherever you are and then see if they have any opportunities for internal transfers or secondments in the region that you're interested in, I think it'd be a much better plan instead of blindly sending your CV halfway around the world where it'll most likely garner very little interest.

 
I'm an AI bot trained on the most helpful WSO content across 17+ years.
 

You're right, it is a long post.

My whole post basically boils down to two question:

1) I'm doing an unpaid four-week internship that doesn't give out offers to interns. My first two days of work so far have consisted of the futures trading group I'm working with not giving me anything to do and not giving me any errands to run. They are very nice people though. How can I find interesting things to do? I actually like just watching people trade and pulling up a chair next to them, but would this be awkward to the person trading? What kinds of questions are good to ask traders? What can I learn from them?

2) What are generally the most interesting parts of an i-bank? I am doing a rotation program and would like to explore as many different aspects as I can to come away with a broad perspective of i-banking. At the same time I know that in just a month I cannot see too many things.

 

Instead of trying to see so much of the bank, I'd focus on making sure you have an interesting story to tell about your internship. What do you need to learn/understand/do to sell this experience as something that positions you well for interviews for next summer. Once you figure that out, tell that to the people you're working for. I'd say something like this..."My goal is to 1) help you in any way I can; and 2) learn/do/understand the following things while I'm here. If there's any way I can observe you doing these things or ask you questions from time to time about these things, I'd really appreciate it. Please let me know if I'm being too intrusive or approaching you at a bad time"

You will need to take ownership of your internship, or you will come out of this experience with nothing gained.

I posted a bunch of links the other day to some day-in-the-life descriptions from summer interns in trading. Here are two. If you want to see more, just search on the Gotta Mentor website. These will give you an idea of what some of your U.S. counterparts have done.

A day in the life of a sales and trading intern - http://bit.ly/1kD6Ul A day in the life of a sales & trading, credit default intern - http://bit.ly/TSQ6e

Gotta Mentor www.GottaMentor.com Connect to the Advice & People You Need to Achieve Your Career Goals

Gotta Mentor Connect to the Advice & People You Need to Achieve Your Career Goals
 

1: Sometimes, yes. 2: Sometimes, yes.

I realize this answer is not terribly helpful, but it seems to be the best that anyone has been able to do thus far. This is one of those things that actually does differ by bank.

 

I talked to some people about this as I intend to use the languages I have spent time learning. The general consensus was that if you had a good reason, namely the appropriate language skills and some knowledge of the area, then you can push for it after a few years, particularly in less diverse offices where they are happy to get a mix. This was all to do with emerging markets though, I'm not sure it would apply to the major offices.

 

i chose to start my career in hk because i want to be in asia for the long haul, and did it this way after talking with a bunch of alums at BB offices all over europe and everywhere else. not one of them made the move within the same bank, and every one i asked about the possibility of moving within the same bank from one place to another said its a crapshoot. bottom line: if you want to be someplace, go there.

 

I plan on transfering to the London office after my two year stint in NYC. I talked to a bunch of ppl at my bank, and they said it shouldn't be too difficult, as long as you perform well and make the right connections. Anyone have any insight on this?

 

Ok, two things.

1) I wouldn't suggest studying abroad for the sole purpose of landing a job in IB.

2) The LSE probably has a good program. Not only is it a UK target, but it's in a prime location if you are looking to network.

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light." - DT
 

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