From poker to prop-trading
A little bit about myself:
I'm 21 years old and a rising senior at a small (yet selective) liberal arts college, though certainly not considered in the realm of a 'target school' for prop-trading. I'm also returning from taking my spring semester off of college in which I played live poker full time (40h/week+) in Las Vegas, playing almost entirely 2-5/5-10 NLH and PLO cash games with both good results and as reasonable of a sample size as five months of live poker can produce (though online grinders will surely find that last sentence laughable). I have AP credits from high-school, so I still plan to graduate school on time, within the standard 4-year window.
And though I'm confident I could make a decent living grinding live poker (somewhere in the neighborhood of $40-$70/hr with my current skill-set), the poker lifestyle is not something I want for myself long-term, for reasons that are largely irrelevant to this post. I have also been relatively successful with arbitraging low-volume, inefficient sports-betting markets, though not nearly as successful as poker.
Unfortunately for this topic, I am a student of the humanities (English and journalism) and wondering what my chances of getting an interview with any decent prop-shops are, as I assume leveraging poker (and maybe sports betting?) is my only real chance in this process, if at all.
If it helps, I consider myself to be a near-obsessive autodidact and have been reading books about markets and predictions for years as well as recently trying to teach myself a more advanced level of statistics and probability through free online resources, as I understand interviews in prop-trading to be math-intensive, especially for a humanities major, as I will surely have a lot to prove if I do somehow get a foot in the door.
So I guess I am asking if I'm delusional in trying to get into this field? And any advice for someone in this position?
I am genuinely fascinated by the markets, game theory, human psychology, and such a level of high-stakes decision making and truly wish that I studied something more applicable throughout school, but here I am left with a knowledge of Dickens that doesn't seem all too useful in the financial markets and a healthy resentment for my eighteen-year old self that made these decisions for me. Going back to school for something else is not an option at this moment (regarding both time and finances).
I do consider myself an intensively analytical person with a mind for quantitative pursuits, but at some point down the line I thought I wanted to be a writer/teacher as a career. This is no longer the case.
Thanks for reading. Any and all information is appreciated!
SIG sounds like your place
Did a job shadow at SIG... half of the people I met had some sort of art history / english / african studies / music major. Consensus was that a unique story / resume got their foot in the door and after that it was completely based upon how you performed in the (heavily quant) interviews. They even used to have (this was years ago) a program where you spent hours a day going through traditional training and spent a large portion of the week playing poker with one another while they kept a keen eye on you, asked why you made the decisions you made throughout the games, etc. Look into it, culture seemed pretty cool as well.
You are not delusional :) not at all Reading through your post you managed to raise a feeling of admiration inside me :) my post may be off the topic ... but i'll risk it just to encourage you. Oh and maybe you'll share with me some of your poker skills in private Cheers
If you can communicate that succinctly in a resume and cover letter you’ll have no issue getting through to the first round of all the major prop places. Apply optiver, sig, akuna, tibra, flow traders, Jane street, etc etc
"arbitraging low-volume, inefficient sports-betting markets" Can you elaborate on this? How you do it etc? Is there a good book or resource you can recommend relating to this?
.
I have had a google around and am I correct in thinking that it is finding the fair value of a bet through the consensus of multiple betting shops and then making bets whereby the expected return > 0 ? Or is there more to this?
Yeah, that's pretty much the process. We just assume that super high-volume books such as Pinnacle or Bet 365 are generally efficient, so my buddy created a program that auto-bets the lines from smaller (only crypto) books that deviate by X% in our favor.
But doing this is generally both tedious and time consuming relative to returns IMO, unless you find a better way to scale than we could (certainly possible). Not to mention the uncertainty of payout that comes from targeting less reputable books in the first place. For this reason, I don't spend much time doing this anymore.
Always open to learning more about this space though as I do know some people who manage to do quite well sports-betting.
Wow playing 2-5 and generating $40-70/per hour is impressive. I myself am a cash game live player on the side, but only 1-2. I am also interested in trying to make a transition over from Asset Management to Prop Trading, but have not really had any luck so far.
2-5 NL win-rate is mid-40's to be more exact. Given win-rate range includes game selecting 5-10 NL and PLO
PM me
Looks like your focus initial focus on the humanities has helped to hone your writing skills and ability to articulate a compelling story. Live Poker @ $70/HR and Crypto Gambling Arbitrage will make for very sexy stories come interview time. Whether you pass a quant test will be a matter of technical interview guide study.
At the end of the day, you come off as someone to have a beer with, and that’s huge. Stay interesting my man.
Do you have any ideas for specific study resources for these quant interviews? I have been trying quick mental math (http://arithmetic.zetamac.com/game?key=a7220a92) and free online probability courses but it's hard to know if I'm wasting my time on general probability that won't be included in the test. I guess I'm wondering if there is any more structured study materials or just 'know probability and mental math'
Hey man I play poker on the side (mainly 1/3 house games and tournaments) when given the opportunity and I am a rising senior with a few internships in finance now. I recently interviewed for a strong MM bank in the south and, on my resume, I included that I'm a winning poker player. The two MDs, I kid you not, were so fascinated by this that our conversation on poker took up the bulk of the interview. As long as you are somewhat likable and communicate well, I don't think you'd have any problem reconciling poker with a job in finance, particularly trading. I think especially with trading you can explain the similarities with your understanding of +EV situations on the felt and how the two relate. I actually prefer live poker (and tournaments more now because I recently had relative success for myself at the WSOP) for the reason that online play is so ultra GTO as you know at this point that it can be hard to gain an edge.
Lastly, as much as the finance world seems to have an extremely rigid trajectory (internships, perfect grades, extracurriculars to break in, blah blah blah) most people in finance that I've spoken to find the work-when-you-want lifestyle of poker players and the ability to take calculated risks as being extremely alluring. Vanessa Selbst is a trader now, if she can do it, I'm sure you can too ;)
Equity Research may fit your english and journalism background better if you're interested
Why journalism instead of a Econ or a quant major? That is a bit of a red flag.
Daniel,
I have a buddy out in San Fran (just attended his wedding there last month) who made the exact transition you're trying to make (poker to trading) before leaving trading to co-found a cryptocurrency based startup backed by venture capital. He's a really interesting guy.
He was a big online poker player in college in the glory days before the government shut online poker down. He was good enough that he turned like $1,000 into $50,000 and was considering dropping out of college (was a finance major at a Big 10 school) but luckily his mother convinced him not to. Most of his bankroll got frozen in that sudden federal shutdown, but he said he eventually got almost all of it back.
Anyway, he says his success as a poker player was what helped him land his job as a bond trader in Chicago. It was basically his entire story. And that makes sense, because having done both (trading and poker) as hobbies/sidehustles, I can attest that they require a nearly identical skill set: quick math, decisive thinking, risk/reward analysis, cash management, and most importantly, psychological awareness and self-discipline.
He ended up leaving after a number of years to restart his career with one of those elite coding bootcamps and go do the crypto thing. He was an early investor in the crypto space and thinks it's the future.
He has another buddy I met at the wedding who left the same trading firm to launch a cryptocurrency hedge fund.
So yes, it can be done. I swing trade on the side myself, not day trading though. I've been to Vegas three times. I played poker twice, the $1/2 blind no-limit hold 'em tables, and probably averaged about $80/hour (plus free drinks) while I was there.
I played a LOT of hold 'em as a teenager during the poker craze and got pretty good at it, and those guys at those low-limit tables in Vegas on a Friday or Saturday are amateurs throwing money around for entertainment, so it's easy money. Although I'm sure it's much more difficult going during a weekday in a non-peak season when legitimate poker players are playing to win.
Best of luck with the transition. It can certainly be done.
The poker experience is definitely extremely useful like everyone else has said.
Have you been trading your own money? If you put your own cash on the line (regardless of the sum) it shows you're that serious about it. They're going to want to see that you can do it, not what the shingle on your office wall says.
A degree is a good way to help get your first job, but after that all anyone cares about is your experience. Source: I have an econ degree but work in relationship management for a software company
I'm almost tempted to call BS on this story. Those win rates for 2/5 and 5/10 seem off. You're not the only one on WSO that has supported themselves with poker . . .
To clarify, the higher end of this $40-70 range includes a recent, large PLO upswing with a relatively low sample size, so it is probably unrealistic/optimistic to expect $70/hr long-term (probably could have made this more precise). Though I don't think an overall win-rate of $50-55/hr is unreasonable if you consider game selecting greatly between 2-5 NL, 5-10 NL, 1-2-5 PLO and 2-5-10 PLO in LA/Vegas and would be shocked if you have knowledgable poker friends that disagree with this.
I have a quite similar background (LAC, poker in college, now in prop trading). My advice is to apply to as many places as possible. I believe firms like Akuna, Flow, and Optiver automatically give you a math test, which, if you pass, will land you the interview. After that, I think it is important to communicate clearly why you are interested in trading and what you have done to demonstrate that interest.
Poker guy interningat a prop shop now. Grind(ed) 5/5+ NLHE live and 200z+ online.
I received a fair amount of questions on poker during the interviews and they did ask me about my winrates. Poker definitely help me clinch the job. I did however come from a target unfortunately which helped me get in the door.
While I can't really help on the application process, I would like to echo the sentiment that if you truly have those winrates, you'll have a headstart in getting into trading.
The things I've found most useful: 1) Turns out the ability to multitask/focus when 12 tabling online translates well to screen trading many products 2) The ability to deal with variance is something I've found comes more natural to me than the other new hires 3) Controlled aggression is similar in both
Thanks for all the help guys. I have a final onsite at Akuna in a couple of weeks - among a few other phone interviews in the near future and then, of course, many rejections.
Wondering if anyone has done the Akuna 'super day' for junior traders and what this entails. I know there are some posts about it on these forums, but nothing I've found has been particularly helpful or specific. Feel free to pm me too if you have information and I'll be happy to share anything I know as well.
Very new to this world so I can't overstate how much I appreciate people I've never met helping me this much. Who would have thought that a finance forum called, "The Wall Street Oasis" would be this collaborative and supportive? Not me...but more than happy to be proven wrong in this case.
As always, trying to enjoy the ride and focus on the inputs and decisions, not results.
PM me if you need help Daniel, I had the same path as you and succeeded in getting a job at a op shop. Cheers.
Managed to land a job at a solid prop-shop and just recently accepted the offer (not Akuna, just to clarify, as I mentioned above) - this is as specific as I'm going to be on that matter. Thanks again to everyone who offered advice on this forum. You guys were super helpful. If anyone has any questions for me regarding the process or anything else feel free to ask or send me a PM, as I'm always happy to pay it forward. With that being said, my work is just beginning. Cheers!
Path from poker to trading, debating some options (Originally Posted: 03/19/2010)
I've been playing poker professionally since graduating in '08. (Take it seriously, not a "built $50 into a few thousand" type. If anyone cares I played about 3m hands in 2009.)
I really like doing this and am going to take advantage of the freedom in order to travel and do some volunteer work overseas, doing something like poker 70% and that 30% per year.
I've passed CFA L1 and am taking L2 in June. Nothing else really resume noteworthy aside from maybe a couple local volunteer things.
Based mostly on various travel ideas and that I don't want to be doing poker forever, I'm thinking that in 3-4 years I'd like to try to begin a career. Right now trading seems like the most interesting and transferable route. I've been reading these forums a bit for the past week and they've made me think about transition options:
(a) Just apply -- can't hurt, really no concept of the chances I'd have at good firms (b) Get master's in financial mathematics -- these programs look interesting and I'd meet requirements for coursework but professor references would be an issue, especially given how competitive they seem to be (c) Get MBA -- got accepted into MBA program when I applied for college through program they had. Mandates 3 years of work experience and I'm not sure if poker would count. If it does count I'm not sure that it'd be smart to do this and try to compete against more qualified people rather than working for a while first and then doing the MBA (it is deferrable forever). It seems like it'd be best to save the MBA to leave options open for later in the career.
So questions are:
1) How does this look? Anything else I should be doing now (maybe reading trading books, getting better at Excel/programming, trying to do something part time)? 2) Suggestion for what to do in 3-4 years time? 3) If any trading pros are willing to discuss further on AIM/email that would be awesome.
Look to game theory
You should just apply to firms and see what happens. You could probably get a couple first round interviews at decent firms, but you just need to be very polished in the interviews.
Spend some time as a dealer in Las Vegas, then apply to S & T. You will learn pricing much better in Vegas first.
Options (a) and (b) look the most appealing to me, and applications to both are not mutually exclusive.
If you get a trading job, great - withdraw your apps and trade away. If things don't work out on the job scene, get a Fin Math degree from a good university. It'll be of great educational value and, more importantly, give you a great shot at trading jobs through OCR.
Definitely start reading a few books. They'll help you with interviews. Also, start a paper money account and try out a few trades yourself. For good trading books, check out this thread: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/recommended-reading-list
Thinking getting Fin Math would be good even if I could get a trading job before because I'd be much more capable/knowledgeable and if that job didn't work out would have a better shot at finding another one. This seems especially important in my case cause looking for a job with my background will probably be unpredictable.
Will order a few books soon
are u actually a profitable pro poker player? Do you have any winnings at legit tournaments? I am just saying because I work with a dude who is a pro-level poker player and has won a decent amount of prize money in events and if you google him it looks pretty impressive, ie alot of pages come up with his profile, ranking, winnings, etc....i am sure places get alot of resumes from "pro poker players" but it might help if you could link to a page at pokerpages.com or someplace similar that showed a profile with prize money.
I dont know a ton about poker but i do know that "pro poker player" has almost become cliche because so many college kids claim to have been pro poker players.
Michael Jordan signed with the White Sox because he was Michael Jordan, not because he was more knowledgeable or better at Baseball than someone else.
You def have a chance, but if you wanna do a little hedging, try for the MMF, it's the shorter route to good job placement.
It definitely has become cliche. It does work in getting first round interviews, but, at this point, alot of trading firms have at least 1 legit player that would know the majority of the winners in the midstakes and high stakes online community. If they just play live tournaments and have a few scores, that really doesn't mean anything. Alot of "pro poker players" know how to phrase things well to relate it to trading, but I'll always ask them their screen name at the end to find out if they are legit or not. It's just so easy to go to 2+2 and find the right posts and right down the points to relate to trading, the interviewer has to be very good at sniffing out the difference.
agreed with above, use the term poker pro cautiously. if you came in and said you were a "pro" we could have a number of guys sit in on the interview. but let me address your questions:
-brushing up on excel would not hurt at all, pick up a book or 2 and read through it.
-applying to shops wouldn't be a bad idea, but you need to understand that you must show passion when discussing how excited you are about trading. i would NEVER tell anyone over the phone that 3-4 year line (hopefully this is obvious to you)
-Prop shops would be your best bet in terms of places to target. prop shops care much less about your "prestigious" resume. the only questions asked are: Is this kid smart? can he make us money? do we like him? period. it isnt like banking where you need a 4.0 and be president of every club blah blah blah, that shit doesnt matter. the fact that you play for a living might even give you an edge at certain places.
-I would honestly start networking my ass off, getting in touch with every firm that seems interesting. hit up linkedin, use google, coldcall, ask around the poker community (there are PLENTY of ppl in the industry who are still very active). i would do this before wasting time with more education. think about it, if you can get in now, wtf is the point? a grad program should be last resort. it sounds like a decent idea on paper, but you will learn almost everything you need to learn on the job anyways. ive seen so many associates come in and think theyre hot shit and get absolutely destroyed.
good luck, and if you have any questions you can PM me. ill try to get back to you as soon as i can.
3m hands ... must be some serious rakeback... lol at ppl questioning your pro status... given your goals and time frame i think staying in school makes sense provided you can balance it. your idea to study fin math sounds good, you should also work on coding. tbh i suggest looking into a phd. feel free to ping me
My name wouldn't come up in search engines- I've never had a big tourney score (almost never play them) and have never even been to Vegas. I'm also not very well known online but was probably top 50? online last year for # hands played (3m) and made maybe 10c/hand + rakeback/bonuses. I say this only to try to legitimize myself, albeit as a boring mega grinder.
PNL: Do the firms train with the breadth of a good MFE program? When's the best time of year to try to apply? What about moving to a new firm, wouldn't the MFE be more of a general/transferable skill set?
Just read a few things. Looks like in depth training is pretty standard for college/recent graduate hires. Think someone ~5 years out of college would be eligible to apply for those entry level trainee spots?
I think it's possbile. If you phrase it like you were playing poker and traveling, then I think you would still have a shot. I would rather hire a mega midstakes grinder than a high stakes HU player. It's a matter of focus on so many tables, being disciplined, and not tilting. A million small edges with extemely little risk is the way to go.
it's risky imo. i would give you a shot if i was in a hiring position but most HR types probably wouldn't view 5 yrs of poker favorably. not sure if most trading shops would give as much credit to a micro mega grinder as a high stakes guy. even if it makes same/more money it doesnt have the same flash to casual players
3 million hands in one year? That's pretty much I think, considering the fact that there are only 526,000 minutes in one year. Must be a hadrcore player! Do you play Hold'em? My favoriate...
Hey there, how has everything turned out so far? Feel free to PM me.
There are a lot of people that consider trading to be a form of gambling. There is something to that story and both things require certain skill set. I have been playing poker since I was a boy and it is something i really enjoy to do. I have become better at poker as I grew and then I started winning money. That has somehow helped me become better in trading, maybe I am willing to take more risks. I still enjoy playing poker, but there is no time to play for serious stakes so I play online on https://casino-korea.com/ and it is great.
Everyone has a chance...
How are you with difficult mental math? Practice those
Interesting background.
Sent you a Pm
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