I'm currently just starting the application process to matriculate 2015, but one thing I'm having trouble doing is narrowing down the schools I'm applying to. My current list is:
1. HBS
2. Wharton
3. Booth
4. Columbia
5. Stern
6. Tuck
It seems like applying to six different schools is overkill, but I'm also concerned about my chances of being rejected if I narrow it down too much. Pretty sure I'm being paranoid but not sure what to do here. No idea what the average number of schools everyone applies to is, either. This came up because I'm finally planning out my school visits, which you can guess is a nightmare trying to fit this many in.
I hired an admissions consultant that is going to help me with three of them, and I'm thinking it'll be HBS/Wharton/Booth, so I'd be on my own for applying to Columbia/Stern/Tuck. Stern and Tuck I don't really feel particularly great about, they almost feel like fall backs, but I'm also really unsatisfied with the Columbia living situation vs. Stern and Tuck. Much easier to commute from Hoboken than find something uptown by Columbia, and Hanover is awesome, so....
Any tips on what to do here?
@"Betsy Massar"
I guess you want me to weigh in? Thanks for the call, @"thebrofessor" I don't think 6 is too many, especially since you do the heavy lifting on the first 2-3 applications anyway. it isn't like you can cut and paste -- that's always a sure ding, -- but once you've worked through the thought process to figure out what your goals are, why the MBA, and why you can contribute mightily to a class (inside and out), then it should be less onerous going forward.
Having said that, if the OP is not so excited about Stern and Tuck, I think he has answered his own question. That lack of enthusiasm shows, especially in the case of Tuck, which they really look out for -- they don't want you shlepping to Hanover for 2 years if you are going to hate it.
Personally, I think that applying over 2 rounds creates tremendous stress on you, breaks up your momentum, and most importantly, costs you a whole lot of political capital with your recommenders.
Well the issue of excitement is also relative to whether or not I have my sights set too high. If I don't get in to HBS/Wharton/Booth then I'll need other schools to apply to, which I'm obviously not going to be as excited about, right?
What are your stats?
6 is not an abnormally high number, but it is probably too many to do well in one round. Also, unless your entire application is tight (stats, recs, WE, story), you might want to branch out a bit. M7+Tuck is no walk in the park.
More importantly, what do you want to do?
Six in one round is too much. The max per one round should be 3-4, MAYBE 5. With 6 you're just not going to be able to put together strong applications for all of them. Unlike college, each b-school asks unique essay questions, and for the most part you can't just copy and paste. If you want to maximize your chances, apply early action to Tuck and make sure to go to campus for the interview. And then for Columbia apply by early December since they have rolling admissions. Do HBS and Stanford in round 1 since those are your top choices and if you get in, you're done with the process. If you don't get in, you can then apply to wharton and booth for round 2.
You don't really have a problem at all.
R1: 1. HBS 2. Wharton 3. Booth
If you don't get in:
R2: 4. Columbia 5. Stern 6. Tuck
Wasn't going to go into too much detail because I have a pretty nontraditional background and without going through my entire application profile it doesn't sound like it justifies HSW. My consultant didn't think so either until I started working at this PE firm and getting the experience I have, so I'm fairly confident I at least have a shot.
But just for fun, here's a short summary. Graduated from non-target public uni with 3.02 gpa in civil engineering, did a bunch of extracurricular/leadership stuff in college though a lot of it was political work. Worked in a couple different jobs before getting a job as a mechanical engineer and not liking it too much. Networked my ass off and got a job at the PE firm I'm at right now. The firm allows me to get involved in literally everything we do. Some notable experience:
None of us ever did this before so I was involved in all aspects of this, working with firm partners to structure the Fund, reviewing all legal documents with the lawyers, preparing the proposal and legal docs (term sheet, ppm, subscription agreement, operating agreement, capital call notice, etc.) and managing the fundraising process to close. We're also using this fund to purchase some subordinate notes already in place at some of our companies, and so have been working on that project, too. Finally, I'm in charge of fund operations, i.e. the money and financials for this fund.
In terms of deals, I'm involved at every level in every single deal. We review all CIM's that come in and discuss our thoughts, then work together to structure a deal. I prepare the IOI's and send them out. If we have conference calls with bankers or management I'm involved. If we get into bank meetings I'll go with one or both firm partners. If it's an add-on acquisition I'll work with our portfolio company management on the project, which can include modeling out the acquisition to look at how the combined company looks WRT financials, how to handle the acquisition regarding debt/equity/cash, how the combined balance sheet looks, etc. I'm also involved in the negotiation process.
Regarding management of the portfolio, I attend all quarterly board meetings for all of our companies. I receive our monthly and quarterly financials and prepare/mail our quarterly statements. I've done a few specific projects, which include modeling out a plant closing for one of our companies and looking at cash availability, preparing an entire projection model with one of our CFO's that we're planning on providing to all our companies, discussing with CEO/CFO some margin issues that we've been having and preparing the relevant documentation, and generally working closely with our senior management on strategic issues.
I think that covers a lot of what I've done at this job. Regarding academics, I passed CFA L1, 750 GMAT, and took a very high level graduate finance course and got an A in it to offset my low ugrad GPA. I'm also currently involved on the board of one non-profit and am guiding the strategic planning process, and have done a ton of other volunteer work.
I wasn't aware there was enough time between being notified of rejection in R1 to apply in R2. Wouldn't that be a time crunch to grind out an additional three applications?
Interesting profile. Very impressive that you managed to go from mechanical engineering to PE by pure networking. It definitely shows hustle and drive. And you seem to have solid substantive experience at the PE firm.
I think you are competitive everywhere except HBS. I honestly don't see HBS working out because they value high GPAs from top undergrads AND name brand firms (the impression I get is that your PE firm is not a well known one). For the others you're in the game, and it will hinge ultimately upon the strength of the recs, how you present yourself in the essays, overall story line of why you want an mba, realistic career goals, and conveying a few interesting stuff about yourself outside of your resume.
Also, I'm assuming here that you're a white/asian male. If not, then HBS is certainly on the table.
As for the timeline, if you get interviews, you will hear back from HBS/Wharton/Booth by mid-December. Stern's round 2 is due on January 15th I believe. If you follow my timeline suggested above, you would be done with Tuck in mid-October (early action deadline) and Columbia by early December. And let's say you do HBS/Wharton for round 1. Then if you don't get in the only applications that are due in January would be Booth and Stern so totally doable. Another advantage to my suggested timeline is that if you get into Tuck early action you will at least have a very good acceptance under your belt by early December, so that will lift a huge burden off your shoulders. Trust me. The worst part of the application process is waiting for an acceptance and wondering whether you will be attending a top MBA program at all. It's truly nerve wrecking.
I think I have a shot at HBS. I don't think it's unrealistic, as I think they're flexible enough to review non-traditional backgrounds. I think people here consider employer pedigree to be more important than it actually is TBH. The reason people at those firms get in isn't simply because of pedigree, but because statistically speaking, people that work at top firms have better profiles.
But I also know it's somewhat of a long shot. Thanks for the tips.
Sure you have a shot. And obviously you should not let anyone discourage you from applying or putting in your 110% into the HBS application. After all, if you do get in, you are gonna attend, and it will truly be a life changing enjoyable experience and a great boost to your professional career. As someone who knows a lot about mba admissions process and having gone through it myself, I would be doing you a disservice if I did not give my honest input. Admissions consultants actually have an incentive to bullshit you because they get paid purely on volume, NOT actual results. Not to go off topic, but admission consulting is one of the most perverse distorted industries out there.
With regards to HBS, yes, they do accept non-traditional applicants. But non-traditional here usually refer to those who did something totally different professionally or personally such as military special forces, high level government, ran their own business, tech startup, entertainment, sports, etc. You are NOT a non-traditional applicant because you currently work in PE. Even if you were still in engineering you wouldn't fall into this bucket since plenty of engineers apply to b-schools. So this means that schools will see you as a finance guy and compare you to other finance applicants. At HBS that pool is INSANELY strong since the top associates from megafund PE and large hedge funds are applying to HBS. So what exactly is your "edge" over those other applicants? They will have better undergrad pedigree, gpa, and professional pedigree than you. Many of them will also have solid extracurriculars and gmat scores. Also the essays are perhaps the least important aspect of the HBS application, so there's no "edge" there. Now if there is something very compelling in your story that you don't want to mention, that obviously changes things. My assessment though is based purely upon the information that you divulged, hence why I said that your chance at HBS isn't that good.
Best of luck.
I did 6 apps in one round. I too was a civil engineer. I moved from engineering to IM. PM me if you want to talk specifics, I don't want to give out too much more details here since yes - we are a very easily identifiable type of applicant.
Fee waivers and apply to the top 20. Figure out where you get the best financial aid package. If its equivalent between multiple schools than decide where you want to work or live throughout school between those free rides.
As I have now given you better advice than your admissions consultant, that will be 3k for my c̶o̶m̶m̶o̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ sage and omniscient advice.
I'm going to disagree with Betsy. Doing 3 applications per round took up all my free time, I couldn't imagine doing 5-6 in one round, and doing them well. Furthermore, if you're a top candidate, it's very possible you could get stuck doing FIVE interviews in a 2 week period (I applied to 3 schools in R2 and got stuck doing 3 interviews in two week period, as I got interviewed at all my choice), some of which involved having to fly to other states. I was VERY glad to have had a R1 acceptance in the bag, and had time to thoughtfully reflect on my essays/resume/story/interviews/etc between rounds. No way you can keep up your mental fortitude in either applications or interviews if you try to do 5-6 in one round.
I don't think enthusiasm matters much at all either. For Fuqua, a school that cares about its culture a ton, I wrote my essays completely off their website, went to no recruiting events, and I didn't want to attend - it was a back up. They still let me in with scholarship.
I agree with OpsDude completely. Enthusiasm and fit are overrated IMO. Bottom line is that top schools want the strongest applicants who can add the most value to the incoming class. The only time that a visit/fit can make an actual difference is if you're a borderline applicant who got waitlisted.
Your profile is cool and relatively impressive considering where you started. Unfortunately, I'd have to echo what others have said here - it's still a below average stats finance profile with no names (school or firm). Now, that doesn't mean you can't get into HBS or Wharton, but it's just relatively unlikely. I would be pretty surprised if you didn't get into at least one M7, and think you profile is pretty similar to a lot of people at Columbia.
As for where you should apply, why not just apply to four? H, W, Booth, and CBS. I don't see you wanting to go to Tuck or Stern even if you get in, so what's the point in applying? I do think six apps is doable if you start right now (I started this time last year and got five done with time to spare, and had a wedding and honeymoon in the middle of that). However, I don't think you should apply to six if you're not really into the last two.
More importantly, and I'm surprised no one has asked this, but why b-school? You seem to be in a great place doing important things at an interesting firm. And, you're likely earning pretty solid money. So why school? And on that same note, is school absolutely a must do now? If not, why not just do H/W/B this year, and if you don't get in, reapply next year while also reassessing whether or not you may want to go to other schools you're less interested in?
I dunno, I think you need to decide what you want to do, why you want to do it, and then work backwards from there. It sort of seems like you're shooting in the dark with some apps to a few good schools without having given much thought to anything but the commute to Harlem and feasibility of doing six apps in one round.
School now works for what I want to do. I don't want to just apply to the four because HBS/Wharton/Booth/Columbia are all good schools and what happens if I get rejected from all of them? I don't want to have to wait another year to reapply.
You still haven't made it easy for anyone to analyze this situation because you haven't mentioned why it works now or what you want to do. For many, failing to get in one year isn't such a big deal because they're in a good job that they'd be fine at for another year. For others, it's a must get out now scenario. Seems like you're in the second, but not entirely sure why.
The problem is, applying to all six of those schools, even if you have the time, does not guarantee you acceptance. Tuck is no easier to get into than Columbia (excuse my bias), and marginally easier if at all than Booth. Stern has a lower acceptance rate than Booth as well, although there's obviously a different set of applicants. Point is, you're not guaranteed any of those. At the same time, I think you'd be pretty likely to get into more than one of Booth, CBS, Tuck or Stern if you execute well.
But seriously, Stern and Tuck might be the two most opposite schools out there. One if in Greenwich Village and is a very solid finance placer, but much, much, much worse on the consulting side of things. Tuck is a consulting power. If you want to stay in PE, I think it's a close call. There's actually another thread on here about someone asking Tuck vs. Stern for PE, so I might look for that. They both have their advantages, so it's really a toss up of where you'd rather be and the school you'd prefer.
If school's a must, just pick one. I am biased, but I think Tuck is a more well-rounded school. However, if NYC Finance is your goal, and you already live in Hoboken, I certainly wouldn't fault you for choosing Stern as the fifth. And while I tend to agree with Betsy that I wouldn't split your schools in half between R1 and R2, that doesn't mean you can't do your top five in one round, and then have a just in case school or two teed up for R2 if you need it (that was my plan if I didn't get into my five R1).
i'd break it up across the first two rounds. You will have time after R1 to see where you are. I think most decisions are back in time for R2, but even if not you will certainly see how your interview hit rate looks. I'd tackle 2-3 in the first rd. and whatever else you need to in the 2nd. I'd view CBS and Stern as backups given your profile, so would probably punt those into 2nd rd.
I'm sorry, but CBS is not a backup for this guy unless he applies early decision.
Tuck is hard as well unless he applies early action. Tuck in the other rounds, CBS, regular decision, and Booth, are all in a similar wavelength of selectivity.
You need to diversify.
HBS is a stretch (for everyone). Apply to Wharton. Pick two from Booth, Columbia and Tuck. Apply to one safety as well (Stern, Yale etc)
Just want to point out that Stern and Yale don't make great safeties since their average stats are so high and their acceptance rates are so low. All else equal, it seems like an applicant would have a better shot at Fuqua, Darden, and Ross.
I agree with this. Stern and Yale used to be safeties for reasonably strong applicants, but that certainly isn't the case now. I laughed my ass off when jankynoname said that CBS is a safety for this guy.
I don't think I ever called any of them a "safety". I said CBS and Stern can be thought of as backups, meaning he has a competitive profile for Booth, Wharton and Tuck, so take a swing at those first, and if that doesn't pan out he can cast a wider net in R2. Obviously neither CBS or stern are guaranteed admits, and he'd probably be wise to sprinkle in some other lower ranked programs at that point too. My sample size is small, but no one i've ever worked with has been dinged at CBS, and they all have average/competitiveish profiles for top 10 programs.
For really strong candidates, Yale and Stern can act as safeties. OP has 750 GMAT. Though the lower GPA may hurt more at Yale than at other schools. Obv. Ross/Darden/Duke are easier to get into so may be better safeties.
Sure. It depends on how strong the candidate is. I think the OP can most likely get into stern and yale, but I don't think his profile (at least based on what he divulged) is strong enough to warrant calling them "safeties" in the true sense of the word. He is definitely in "contention" for Wharton/Columbia/Booth, but it really depends on so many other variables.
Six is no doubt a lot. That said, the number of questions for both the applicants and the recommenders have come down meaningfully in the last year or two. So the experiences of people who applied last cycle or the one before it may not be perfectly comparable.
To your question on having ample time to do applications in between R1 and R2, a few things to consider. 1) If you don't get an interview at HBS / Wharton / Booth, you will effectively be rejected. This will occur months in advance. You can always apply to three and pend more/less time preparing your other apps depending on your # of interviews. Also, who says you can't continue to work on apps even if you're waiting on responses?
Another thing to keep in mind, if you're applying to Columbia, apply Early Decision.
And look at similarity of essays. If essays are similar, a lot of copy pasting can be done. e.g. "Why MBA"
If you have to apply to CBS, apply ED.
We started working on my Columbia essays already. We're going to work on HBS next, then Booth. I can modify the Columbia essays to fit Wharton's questions and have four bagged by round one at the very least. Once we have our essays down I can see about the possibility of grinding out Stern/Tuck. I don't think it'll be unreasonable.
Hey I realize this post is oldish but I was just curious about what you ended up deciding and how you ended up doing
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