If people can picket funerals, he can do whatever he wants

I suppose he should be allowed to do that under his right to free speech, but somebody should really sit him down and tell him to stop being such a moron and poor excuse of a pastor.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. It's both a free speech issue and inciting violence. Speech isn't free, it's just (generally) protected from prior restraint. What the pastor did is equivalent to yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. He can do it, but he knew what was going to happen. People died as a result of his actions, he provided aid to our enemies, and he should be charged with accessory to murder.

This is where I don't agree with you. Don't see how it is "inciting violence" at all. What he proposed to do was a carefully controlled and highly symbolic burning of the Quran.

Fundamentalist groups in the Middle East are waving around AK's, shooting them off into the air, lighting shit on fire, etc... not the same case at all.

I didn't say it was the same as fundamentalist groups in the Middle East. I think we should kill all those fuckers.

However, it is the exact same as yelling fire - it doesn't matter what his reason for doing it was, he could reasonably have expected that people would die as a result. My issue isn't that it gave fundamentalists an excuse for violence, but that it pushed moderates further towards fundamentalism. The city in Afghanistan where the UN consulate was attacked and Ghurkas (under orders not to fire) and diplomats died was known as a comparatively moderate place, but this event was enough to provoke its populace into murder.

That may have been the end result but that is the result of our individual rights schema--the outcome could have been the death of a few diplomats... or it could have sparked the civil rights movement. Some types of speech are incendiary by nature, and I hope you are not judging the validity of a speech act by its consequences. What about American women who flaunt their bodies in the US? Surely their speech act is fueling the anger of fundamentalist groups... it's a slippery slope my friend.

I question his qualifications as a pastor and his sense of moral responsibility, but that is separate from the act and I can live with stupid people like him.

+1 blastoise. Satin is evil.

Blaming the victim is one thing, but this guy isn't the victim, other people are. He's being protected by the US, and innocent people died because of him. I understand how slippery the slope is, and I understand that generals are pointing fingers because it is convenient, but the fact is that what this guy did was bad for US interests.

You can also point the fingers at the media outlets that gave this guy publicity; they should have just kept their mouths shut. I don't care if some nut wants to burn a Quran, and I don't need the NYT reporting on it. Maybe the government shouldn't block him doing this; in fact, I don't think they should. Like I said, it is both a free speech issue, and inciting violence

I didn't blame the victim, I blamed the victim's clothes (in order to make a point). Again, if we are not allowed to do something because someone threatens violence...then what is stopping us from wiring $100B to a terrorist cell that claims they will kill innocent people if we don't? We can't allow ourselves to be held hostage or paralyzed by fear.

Should Disney have been charged with accessory to murder??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney%27s_World_War_II_propaganda_pro...

Regards

My point is, it has nothing to do with the religion or what is written in various holy texts. Yes, in general, Christ was much nicer guy than Muhammed, but Christians still spent centuries killing people who didn't share their beliefs. It's silly to point to the Quran as a reason for this. These people simply don't like us.

On some level, I understand and even emphasise with some terrorists. I can understand why the IRA would want to kill Britons; I get why the PLA wants to kill Israelis. I don't emphasise with these muslims at all, because they are just assholes, pure and simple. Don't dignify them by covering them with some religious excuse.

There are lots of times that I don't say something because someone threatens violence, either explicitly or implicitly. If I'm in a bar and some guy who's twice my size spills a drink on me, I don't call him an asshole, because I don't want to get beat up. Does that imply that I am paralysed by fear?

The stuff in the Qu'ran is honestly no more violent or disturbing than some of the scriptures in the Bible, and historically a hell of allot more people died in the name of Christianity. One thing you have to realize is that most Muslim countries, while rich in natural resources, have enormous income disparities. Most people live in 2nd/3rd world conditions, and in some ways its understandable that many Muslims take the Qu'ran literally. They are living in a backward society where literally everything (law, customs, culture, tradition) comes directly from it. When people have so little in their life they often turn to religion.

That's actually not an excellent point at all. While both are expressions of free speech in the face of likely disapproval, the koran burning is an explicit desecration of a religious text while building a mosque near the WTC does not necessarily constitute a monument to the terrorists from 9/11, far from it. The mosque project was insensitive and misguided at the very least, but the two are hardly comparable.

What?!? Christ was a much better guy in general? If you know the Bible, especially the parts that include Jesus Christ (which aren't the parts referenced in the video you linked) you would know the difference between Christ and Muhammad is profound...it's night and day. Everything in the Qu'ran is supposedly what Allah told Muhammad and Muhammad followed it to a "T". Did Christ commit genocide against the Bani Qurayza? Nope. Did Christ marry a 9 year old girl? Nope. Again the list could go on and on. The bottom line is that Christ taught love and acceptance and forgiveness...none of which is found in Muhammad's notebook.

And I make no attempt to dignify the poor behavior of Muslims. I actually hesitate to call it a religion because it's much more than that, in fact, they are more like a cult than anything. At any rate, it isn't an excuse, Muslims hold the Qu'ran exalted as a holy scripture that defines and guides every aspect of their lives...so it isn't me saying it's religion, it's them. Just turn on the TV and look for the most fucked up and backward nations. They are all predominantly Muslims. You just don't have widely Christian nations doing the things that Muslim nations do, which include murdering people of different faiths, prohibiting equal rights for woman (which is a gross understatement), etc. etc...so unless they are all suffering from some sort of neurological disease despite the great distances they are apart (in some cases) then the common denominator is their religious texts/teachings, etc.

I agree with you when you say that they flat out just hate us, but ask yourself why do these people hate us so much. Is it because of our skin tone? Because they are jealous of our success as a nation? Why? I've never hurt any of them and I'm willing to be that you haven't either. Ultimately they hate us because we are different from them and our religious beliefs and how we conduct ourselves is offensive to them. Why is it offensive to them? Because of their religious beliefs.

Regards

Both are protected by the constitution you moron

That is a valid point, to some extent, but what about the political figures, judges and leaders, etc.? Presumably some of those folks are wealthy and thus educated, so they shouldn't abide by the insane rules that the poor do, but for some reason seem to enforce it wholeheartedly.

And historically Christians may have killed more people than Muslims, but I was under the impression we were talking about the two religions in their current state. Sure the happenings of the past don't bode well for Christians, but at least they've managed to get their heads out of their asses...save for a few nut jobs (Westboro Baptist Church, etc.). As for Muslims and predominately Muslim nations, they actively seek out Christians and murder them, to this very day.

The bottom line remains. Many current Christians follow the teachings of Christ and therefor base their faith and moral decisions on the New Testament. Many current Muslims follow the teachings of Muhammed, which is the exact same now as it was day one...murder, death and destruction all in tact. There is simply no debate as to which one is based on peace and love and which one is based on hatred and intolerance. And maybe I'm not the best person to debate the merits of either because I'm didn't study religion and I'm not a Bible scholar, but what I do know is that I grew up going to church and never once was I told it was okay to rape, beat or murder someone as long as certain criteria are met...that doesn't appear to be the case with Islam.

Regards

Lets just be clear, I'm not blaming "religion" as a whole, I'm blaming Islam, which is their dominate religion int he ME and from what I can tell, the motive behind all of the terrorists attacks, and attempts, we've had in recent memory.

Maybe I'm wrong and maybe you can let us know what is really motivating these people to want to harm Americans and kill Christians.

Regards

That's what I'm referring to when I say "the religion." I'm talking about Islam. What I'm saying is there is quite a bit of social and economic injustice just as there was in much earlier times in the West. Hell, epilepsy was associated with witchcraft during some of those times.

Majority of the people in the region live in a bubble due to no access to information so it is easy to fool them into thinking whatever influential people (Osama etc..) want to. Religion is their war cry because it's easy to unite people under that cause and blame outsiders for their own problems. It has created a Snowball effect as more and more people started to believe. Almost half of Republicans believe Obama is foreign born until hopefully today. See how easy it is to fool people even in todays day and age?

Look at Dubai for example. There is more prosperity and more social and economic justice than other areas in the Middle East. You don't see any extremists from UAE threatening to kill American's in the name of Islam. All I'm saying is blaming the religion and going back and forth is only going to make it worse. We, as Americans, should take the higher road.

Disclaimer: I am not Christain, Muslim, Jewish and I don't follow the religion I was born into.

For everyone talking about how tough they are, measure yourself to her.

This is preposterous.

ILOVENYGUY, I must have been losing my mind or something because I really can't figure out what I was responding to. I wasn't arguing against those things being constitutionally protected.

cphbravo, burning a koran is not equivalent to burning a Dr. Seuss book for the people involved for the simple reason that the pastor in question is aware of the symbolic reach of his actions and attaches more significance to burning a koran than other books.

As far as the mosque goes, I definitely don't perceive it as a slap in the face. It's insensitive because it is inevitable that victims will associate it with the religion of the attackers. However, nowhere in the koran was it ever asked that those actions be taken. Like most other religions, Islam has been hijacked for political purposes, starting with the conquest of the Arabic peninsula. The Crusades weren't about religion, they were about making some loot and strengthening political leadership. Al-Qaeda isn't about making everybody Muslims or killing infidels, it's about reducing American influence in the Gulf. The marginal terrorists or people doing 'honor killings' aren't any different than the Waco, TX people or the most hardcore fringes of our Christian right.

Agreed, how could burning the Qu'ran possibly be considered as "aid" or "comfort"...it seems like the exact opposite in my mind.

Regards

What kind of evidence do you need besides a certification of live birth, news paper publication of his birth, and top officials at the hospital claiming he was? This to me would uphold in a court of law is it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt as stated in the due process clauses.

Wow, just wow, You know the funny thing? It does not fucking matter whether he was born in this country or not, contrary to popular belief you DO NOT need to have been born in the US to become president.

http://www.redstate.com/sdsali/2010/02/11/note-to-birthers-it-doesnt-mat...

His mother was a US citizen so he is automatically a US citizen, if he was born in Kenya or up your ass it does not fucking matter.

That's because that's the angle us news media prefers to show. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who don't approve of what happened on 9/11 and condemn it. Most people here have much better access to statements by Christian leaders and the "scenes of joy" Fox News chooses to blast ad infinitum.

As far as the people from Waco, TX being marginalized in the first place, it would likely be the case of the 9/11 terrorists if they lived in places were the rule of law were stronger and states weren't so poor or close to failure.

Let's not even pretend we're in the Gulf because of injustice and undemocratic states. We're there because as the world's largest economy we have to keep an eye on our interests and that includes making sure the ME doesn't blow up since it accounts for so much of the world's oil production. Afghanistan was a failed state and the situation demanded boots on the ground. But you can't pretend Iraq was asking for it. Going in wasn't rational and the rise of sectarian tensions and terrorism there shouldn't be a surprise.