This is pretty interesting. Amid all the news releases about secret NSA wiretapping and Internet trolling, it's been revealed that an Al Qaeda cell was in the early planning stage of a bombing plot on the New York Stock Exchange in 2008. The plot was ultimately abandoned, presumably because all the bank CEO's blew up Wall Street before Al Qaeda could get there.
The NYSE plot, which had until today been unknown to the public, was centered around an auto parts dealer in Kansas City, Missouri, named Khalid Ouazzani, who pleaded guilty in 2010 for his role in a conspiracy to provide funding to al-Qaeda. At the time of his plea, the complex case against Ouazzani seemed to have little to do with the famous NYSE headquarters on Wall Street in Lower Manhattan, except for a vague reference in his plea agreement that said, "Over a period of years, [Ouazzani] and others discussed various ways they could support al Qaeda."
I don't know how much of this I really buy (I mean, the government now has a vested interest in hatching pre-foiled plots to cover their asses for all the domestic spying), but if it's all true that would be a pretty significant strike symbolically.
It's also somewhat comforting to know that Al Qaeda is still operating in such an analog manner (flying someone out to scout out security, writing reports, etc...) instead of moving into the 21st century and attempting something digital (hacking) which could do some real damage to the market.
So what do you guys think? The feds are claiming they foiled over 50 terrorist plots thanks to all the increased (and underhanded) surveillance. Is it worth it? Those of you who read Jared's piece yesterday are probably already thinking about this.
Until the government can prove they are capable of handling cases that are given to them on a silver platter by foreign governments, we can not really believe that they are capable of doing anything on their own.
From my understanding of the situation, what the NSA has been doing is quite different than what the Bush Administration agencies were accused of. Frankly, I don't see what the issue is with monitoring call logs (not actual conversations) if the vast majority of people don't have anything to hide so I totally support this type of intel gathering.
Tangentially, my view is that Americans are extremely possessive about their "inalienable natural rights", which creates an entitlement attitude wherein anytime there is the slightest impingement of certain PRIVILEGES in the interest of the greater good, we immediately get up in arms. What can I say, I guess I'm utilitarian.
Follow this stuff for a couple of decades and you'll realize 1) the gov't has been doing this for a long time 2) well before 911 3) this is just proof that they are 4) it's actually worth it, and they do stop some attacks 5) ....but this type of thing should be monitored. CLOSELY. 6) because that's how this country works 7) that the committee overseeing these types of activities had no idea this program existed makes the point that NSA has overstepped its surveillance role boundaries. 8) The monitoring isn't just about protecting our rights...and they ARE RIGHTS 9) oversight of these programs also checks to make sure they actually work.
Does this program actually work? Is this expensive and invasive program doing its job? We don't know. "All's well citizen" does not fly here. How about tis: if they're not doing anything wrong.....what do they have to hide? There's no one with a cell phone or computer who doubts the gov't can hack it, what on earth is the secretiveness about? Are we supposed to all pretend we don't know what's going on? Are we supposed to just accept whatever level of invasion someone else decides?
Actual serious question: who does anyone think they're fooling?
Cynicism about "inalienable rights" is pretty lame, take a look at Russia or North Korea and see how shitty things are there. How about the glorious China? My roommate is Chinese, you know what he said....it fucking blows there. Utility, shmutility, live a little instead of thinking like a fucking slave. What utility do you think you you serve? Those rights have a short term cost but a very long term payoff. My personal view is that I don't want the government taking away too many of my freedoms to protect me because ultimately they can't....that and the gov't tends to not give them back once the threat is gone. If you want to live like a caged animal, go for it, I'll live life on my own terms and take my chances.
Americans feel "entitled" to their rights? You're fucking right we do. WE KILLED OFF THE PEOPLE WHO WE USED TO SERVE IN A BLOODY REVOLUTION. We'll do it again if necessary.
You're going to die someday, with 100% certainty. Do you want to live like a fucking servant until then? Do you understand the difference between merely staying alive and LIVING? Christ, be a fucking man. Be a fucking adult. Be a fucking American and stand up for yourself.
Stop thinking like a fucking servant. You're a human, not a sheep.
I love how people talk about Americans having some hang up on silly rights and stuff. It is in the fucking founding documents of this country, not some cocktail napkin.
I want to see an analysis that says wholesale, blanketed surveillance is what "stopped" these events.Then I might support things. Until then, no.
50 attacks stopped? Where were the 50 public trials?
Related to this topic, I highly recommend everyone read this book: Blowback, Second Edition: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Second-Edition-Consequences-American/dp/…
Not until does the US change its foreign policy can most terrorist groups become extinguished... US intervention abroad indirectly motivates the build up of terrorism. Our gov't does a lot of f***** up stuff in other parts of the world and it will unfortunately come back to haunt us one day. Today's wars in Iraq/Afghanistan will led to a generation of terrorists decades from now. When an 8 year old loses both of his civilian parents, he will live with this resentment forever and will be open to extremism.
Check out this kid in Syria:
It is a crazy world
Well, people will always find a reason to hate us, we can spread our cheeks and I guarantee we'll still breed terrorists.
If these guys really wanted to fuck us up, all they had to do was help get Bush and Obama elected.
I sometimes really wish that the right to vote was restricted to an informed, intelligent few.
50 attacks...right...."early planning stages"...right....
I will say it again: there is a better chance of any of us gettin ghit by lightning then dying in a terrorist attack. I am not afraid of made up muslim boogie men.
next person who posts any inane shit on IF U DUN HAVE NETHING 2 HIDE U SHUDNT WORRY garbage should be publicly flogged
This program didn't stop the Boston bombing, Times Square bombing, the underwear bomber, attack on Fort Hood, shoe bomber, and not a one of 11000+ homicides that happen in America every single year.
How can the government stop someone from killing a bunch of people? What prevents me from buying a semi-automatic rifle in West Virginia and military grade body armor and going into a shopping mall and shooting and killing 100 or so people? What prevents me from wondering onto the hundreds of farms I pass when I am driving in New Jersey and stealing fertilizer to build a fertilizer bomb? Seriously? If someone thinks the government "prevents" terrorism, they should be stripped of their ability to vote.
Didn't the government, up until 2 or 3 weeks ag,o say that they weren't logging everyone's communication? Now they can be trusted to say that they prevented 50 acts of terrorism using the program that they said didn't even exist?
So I clearly upset a few folks and I apologize. I'm not going to address every single thing you and others mentioned above, but my point was that there is a cost to the freedoms that we enjoy and yes, I'm extremely grateful that we don't live in China, NK, etc. (I myself immigrated from a developing country), but I think people often take for granted what is necessary to live in a free society. Most of us (not saying you or I, just Americans generally) live in blissful ignorance of the realities that take place in order to maintain a society such as ours. Yes, there should be appropriate oversight to ensure government stays within its constitutionally defined boundaries, but the methods to ensure national security have to evolve with the times and I personally don't think most of the voting public is in a position to be dictating how the IC undertakes its intelligence gathering efforts. How many people do you think know the difference between HUMINT, SIGINT and IMINT?
On your comment about the revolution - most Americans today have never experienced anything but a free society. To say that "we" killed off anyone in a revolution to fight for our natural rights seems like arguing that the Walton heirs or Ivanka Trump (or even Donald for that matter) are self-made billionaires.
ANT - agreed that the Constitution should be the basis for our nation's laws, but just to point out the obvious flaw in your logic, this document was written to confer the greatest benefit to white landowners (who were also slaveowners). I don't need to point out that it's dated and has been amended numerous times to address changes in prevailing ideologies.
I don't understand why people get so worked up about this stuff. You can acknowledge the blatant violation of rights all day long and whatever, but that's really all we've ever done. Is there any proposal for what you as an individual are going to do about it? If not, then how about all of us who think our right to privacy is being taken from us and our government is lying to us... what are we all going to do about it? Point being, so long as there is government they are going to continue to pull shit like this... doesn't matter who's in power - Bush, Obama, right, left, black, white, whatever. It's just what happens because of the persistent quality differential between public and private sector. So other than the requisite "elect Rand Paul" or Alex Jones-style revolutionary arguments, really, what are we going to do? I've just come to expect this stuff and if there's any way it could affect me, find a way to mitigate it. In this particular case I doubt it will ever significantly affect me, but in other cases [ACA, capital gains, etc.] I'm hopefully a step ahead of the curve.
i basically have come to this view also...that its not worth getting involved because i cant change anything. however, its not that the "government will always do this" because the government has NOT always done this...it is that the government will always do this when people are too lazy, apathetic, and fearful of made-up threats to care. It is americans themselves to blame not the NSA or Obama who are just manifestations of the attitude...as a country we dont care about abstractions like "being free" so long as the never-ending stream of crappy entertainment and cheap consumer goods continues to flow. Americans would never riot the way people are doing in turkey right now because as a country we are dumber, more apathetic, and care less about individual rights.
Agree completely... But for whatever reason I don't think we have any motivation beyond our own little worlds to care. If you took away television we'd probably publicly execute a few politicians, but "minor violations" like this can't be our concern. And there's an argument to be made that the people in Turkey having a revolt for the sake of having a revolt are being way less progressive than our apathetic asses. And as dumb as Americans are, I'm not sure the Turks are any better.
Donate to the Electronic Frontier Foundation? Outsource the litigation/advocacy? Better than apathy.
or just make a fuckton of money, retire to my own island with a private militia, and not give a fuck about the rest of the world after that
Rerum corporis eveniet quidem ut laborum. Nihil commodi quidem amet ipsam. Dolor ab quam odit minus neque. Quia quam ipsum quis dignissimos repellendus dolores nihil reiciendis. Aliquid dolores neque quia.
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