Non traditional investments Q and A
Over the last week I have gotten several questions regarding my investment strategies. I would be happy to answer your questions if you have any.
I have been active in land investing since I was in high school. I was willed an acreage of farm ground in the midwest. This was during the beginning of the easy money love fest that got us in the situation we are in now. I began aggressively expanding my holdings by borrowing huge sums of money against my existing holdings and the appreciation that had ensued over the real estate bubble. I have expanded investments to include forest land, oil and gas explorations, mining land. I am currently analyzing a timber tract in Alaska that is currently inaccessible.
If you have any questions about investing in land, how I got started, or just any questions in general feel free to ask away.







Comments
On oil and gas E&P... - size
On oil and gas E&P...
- size of the position in your portfolio
- types of plays ( nat gas? conventional oil? unconventional? shale?)
- outlook on specifically nat gas and its ability to be stored / transported / developed as a viable alternative to crude.
- why you chose real assets over publicly traded assets?
Here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, you are the sucker.
bullbythehorns wrote: On oil
On oil and gas E&P...
- size of the position in your portfolio
- types of plays ( nat gas? conventional oil? unconventional? shale?)
- outlook on specifically nat gas and its ability to be stored / transported / developed as a viable alternative to crude.
- why you chose real assets over publicly traded assets?
Oil and gas currently makes up around 30 to 40% of my portfilio. This varries on a month to month basis depending on the amount that is extracted out of the leases in any given month. The extraction also includes a pro rated lease fee for extration. Back in 2004 I purchased a 700 acre farm acreage in Texas. The land happened to be located on the Barnet Shale. This is how I got into oil and gas, I never really had the intent of getting into Natural gas exploration when I started. I don't do much forcasting for natural gas, I run the depletion numbers on my holdings and forcast the expected life of the wells. Out side of that I haven't had the time to expand my gas holdings. My industy outlook is positive, I like the direction that T. Boone Pickens is moving the industry in. I think that the transportation industy is currently terribly weak and needs to be upgraded to include a network of pipelines before natural gas truely becomes fiesable as a fuel for automobiles.
I prefer real assets over publicly traded assest because I can control them. I can kick a farmer out if I do not like they way he is using the ground. I can choose to allow the forrest to be cut for timber or not. This control is impossible in publicly taded companies and assets.
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
What's your time
What's your time horizon?
Isn't land historically an awful investment (except during manias)? What justifies you buying land several years after a bubble (low interest rates?)? Are you getting the assets at fire-sale prices? What do the previous owners know that you do not and what is their purpose for selling it to you? Are they strapped for cash?
You're moving from real estate to land because of timber, mineral rights, etc. Do you consider this shift primarily a commodities play?
As I wrote earlier I'm very interested in prices. I research real estate and land as a hobby and am seeing nothing but miracle-price offers (people think their asset is worth close to what it was valued in 2007). I'm curious how much you're able to bargain from the listed price. Personally I'm in no rush to buy because I think real estate and land remains way over priced and I rather be wrong and miss the opportunities than start buying now. Of course if you are getting major discounts then I would have to reconsider.
Besides "striking oil" (or
Besides "striking oil" (or gas in this case) what is your general methodology when sourcing new tracts of land. Do you identify a particular asset first and than search out a piece of land that would fit your criteria or do you look at what is currently on the market and then determine if it would be a good investment?
mb666 wrote: What's your time
What's your time horizon?
Isn't land historically an awful investment (except during manias)? What justifies you buying land several years after a bubble (low interest rates?)? Are you getting the assets at fire-sale prices? What do the previous owners know that you do not and what is their purpose for selling it to you? Are they strapped for cash?
You're moving from real estate to land because of timber, mineral rights, etc. Do you consider this shift primarily a commodities play?
As I wrote earlier I'm very interested in prices. I research real estate and land as a hobby and am seeing nothing but miracle-price offers (people think their asset is worth close to what it was valued in 2007). I'm curious how much you're able to bargain from the listed price. Personally I'm in no rush to buy because I think real estate and land remains way over priced and I rather be wrong and miss the opportunities than start buying now. Of course if you are getting major discounts then I would have to reconsider.
Well I have never moved from real estate to land. I feel that land offers different opportunities then real estate does. I havent gotten into development land. I stick primarly to land that generates a useable product i.e. farm gound, forrest tracts, oil and gas. Land in general as a buy and hold asset class does generally suck for returns but offers other advantages such as high leverage, tax shelters, and currently low interest. With the current estate tax levels many people are forced to sell family acerages upon the death of the owner. My farm ground in the mid west is on average leased at a rate of $20,000 per 100 acers per year. This alone on nets me a ROI in the neighboorhood of 23% per year. I have leased ground to power companies for the wind projects that are being built in the area, this generally bumps my ROI up 1.5% or so. Leasing ground to power companies has its drawback however. The rent per acre goes up however it makes the surround land harder to farm an therefore it fetches a slightly lower per acre rate. Ownership of some of the windmills will turn over to me after a certian period of time however so will the maintance. I have no idea how this will play out so its still a bit of a gamble but I am willing to take that.
This is an investment that I am comfortable with, just like any investment it is not right for everyone. Right now land is close to 11000 and acre and I feel that this is just to high for a rental basis. Money can still be made at this price if you are actually farming the land.
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
Sean518 wrote: Besides
Besides "striking oil" (or gas in this case) what is your general methodology when sourcing new tracts of land. Do you identify a particular asset first and than search out a piece of land that would fit your criteria or do you look at what is currently on the market and then determine if it would be a good investment?
Both, why limit yourself to just one way? I do have certian assets that I will not buy at this time. For example I refuse to buy redevelopment land. Yes this can provide huge returns if everything works out, however from the research I have done it more often then not fails. Since I refuse to become a part of investment groups it is just too much risk.
I have many family memebers that are farmers and they know that I invest in farm ground, they usually give me a heads up when there is going to be an auction for a prime acreage. I rarely go to the auctions for farm ground, usually a family member bids for me with a set max. The farming community is raelly tight knit and they are all for the most part very wealthy. Outsiders tent to needlessly drive up the bidding as locals would rather the land stay within the community. For the forrest ground and other asset classes I personally go and analyze the tract. With forest ground esp you have to know what you are looking for and it is a necessity to source professionals when it comes to inspecting the health of the tract.
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
heister wrote: mb666
What's your time horizon?
Isn't land historically an awful investment (except during manias)? What justifies you buying land several years after a bubble (low interest rates?)? Are you getting the assets at fire-sale prices? What do the previous owners know that you do not and what is their purpose for selling it to you? Are they strapped for cash?
You're moving from real estate to land because of timber, mineral rights, etc. Do you consider this shift primarily a commodities play?
As I wrote earlier I'm very interested in prices. I research real estate and land as a hobby and am seeing nothing but miracle-price offers (people think their asset is worth close to what it was valued in 2007). I'm curious how much you're able to bargain from the listed price. Personally I'm in no rush to buy because I think real estate and land remains way over priced and I rather be wrong and miss the opportunities than start buying now. Of course if you are getting major discounts then I would have to reconsider.
Well I have never moved from real estate to land. I feel that land offers different opportunities then real estate does. I havent gotten into development land. I stick primarly to land that generates a useable product i.e. farm gound, forrest tracts, oil and gas. Land in general as a buy and hold asset class does generally suck for returns but offers other advantages such as high leverage, tax shelters, and currently low interest. With the current estate tax levels many people are forced to sell family acerages upon the death of the owner. My farm ground in the mid west is on average leased at a rate of $20,000 per 100 acers per year. This alone on nets me a ROI in the neighboorhood of 23% per year. I have leased ground to power companies for the wind projects that are being built in the area, this generally bumps my ROI up 1.5% or so. Leasing ground to power companies has its drawback however. The rent per acre goes up however it makes the surround land harder to farm an therefore it fetches a slightly lower per acre rate. Ownership of some of the windmills will turn over to me after a certian period of time however so will the maintance. I have no idea how this will play out so its still a bit of a gamble but I am willing to take that.
This is an investment that I am comfortable with, just like any investment it is not right for everyone. Right now land is close to 11000 and acre and I feel that this is just to high for a rental basis. Money can still be made at this price if you are actually farming the land.
Interesting... I suppose your intention is more so to collect rent instead of betting on price appreciation of the asset.
I buy stocks because of capital gains, not dividends, so I tend to think in a different way. But yea, collecting rent as well as the potential for the land to appreciate in value may be attractive. Curious how much demand there is for land though, say for farming. Never thought arable land would be scarce in the mid-west.
mb666 wrote: heister
What's your time horizon?
Isn't land historically an awful investment (except during manias)? What justifies you buying land several years after a bubble (low interest rates?)? Are you getting the assets at fire-sale prices? What do the previous owners know that you do not and what is their purpose for selling it to you? Are they strapped for cash?
You're moving from real estate to land because of timber, mineral rights, etc. Do you consider this shift primarily a commodities play?
As I wrote earlier I'm very interested in prices. I research real estate and land as a hobby and am seeing nothing but miracle-price offers (people think their asset is worth close to what it was valued in 2007). I'm curious how much you're able to bargain from the listed price. Personally I'm in no rush to buy because I think real estate and land remains way over priced and I rather be wrong and miss the opportunities than start buying now. Of course if you are getting major discounts then I would have to reconsider.
Well I have never moved from real estate to land. I feel that land offers different opportunities then real estate does. I havent gotten into development land. I stick primarly to land that generates a useable product i.e. farm gound, forrest tracts, oil and gas. Land in general as a buy and hold asset class does generally suck for returns but offers other advantages such as high leverage, tax shelters, and currently low interest. With the current estate tax levels many people are forced to sell family acerages upon the death of the owner. My farm ground in the mid west is on average leased at a rate of $20,000 per 100 acers per year. This alone on nets me a ROI in the neighboorhood of 23% per year. I have leased ground to power companies for the wind projects that are being built in the area, this generally bumps my ROI up 1.5% or so. Leasing ground to power companies has its drawback however. The rent per acre goes up however it makes the surround land harder to farm an therefore it fetches a slightly lower per acre rate. Ownership of some of the windmills will turn over to me after a certian period of time however so will the maintance. I have no idea how this will play out so its still a bit of a gamble but I am willing to take that.
This is an investment that I am comfortable with, just like any investment it is not right for everyone. Right now land is close to 11000 and acre and I feel that this is just to high for a rental basis. Money can still be made at this price if you are actually farming the land.
Interesting... I suppose your intention is more so to collect rent instead of betting on price appreciation of the asset.
I buy stocks because of capital gains, not dividends, so I tend to think in a different way. But yea, collecting rent as well as the potential for the land to appreciate in value may be attractive. Curious how much demand there is for land though, say for farming. Never thought arable land would be scarce in the mid-west.
Rent per acre for 2011 was 196/acre, in 2010 it was 178. Almost 20 dollars increase in rent in a year. There is a sortage of ag land in the world. Since the American mid west is the grain basket for not only America but a good percentage of the world. Yes land is in demand.
Also you talked about capital gains. When I started land was going for 5000 an acre, now its close to 11000 and acre on average. I would say that beats stocks pretty easy.
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
heister wrote: mb666
What's your time horizon?
Isn't land historically an awful investment (except during manias)? What justifies you buying land several years after a bubble (low interest rates?)? Are you getting the assets at fire-sale prices? What do the previous owners know that you do not and what is their purpose for selling it to you? Are they strapped for cash?
You're moving from real estate to land because of timber, mineral rights, etc. Do you consider this shift primarily a commodities play?
As I wrote earlier I'm very interested in prices. I research real estate and land as a hobby and am seeing nothing but miracle-price offers (people think their asset is worth close to what it was valued in 2007). I'm curious how much you're able to bargain from the listed price. Personally I'm in no rush to buy because I think real estate and land remains way over priced and I rather be wrong and miss the opportunities than start buying now. Of course if you are getting major discounts then I would have to reconsider.
Well I have never moved from real estate to land. I feel that land offers different opportunities then real estate does. I havent gotten into development land. I stick primarly to land that generates a useable product i.e. farm gound, forrest tracts, oil and gas. Land in general as a buy and hold asset class does generally suck for returns but offers other advantages such as high leverage, tax shelters, and currently low interest. With the current estate tax levels many people are forced to sell family acerages upon the death of the owner. My farm ground in the mid west is on average leased at a rate of $20,000 per 100 acers per year. This alone on nets me a ROI in the neighboorhood of 23% per year. I have leased ground to power companies for the wind projects that are being built in the area, this generally bumps my ROI up 1.5% or so. Leasing ground to power companies has its drawback however. The rent per acre goes up however it makes the surround land harder to farm an therefore it fetches a slightly lower per acre rate. Ownership of some of the windmills will turn over to me after a certian period of time however so will the maintance. I have no idea how this will play out so its still a bit of a gamble but I am willing to take that.
This is an investment that I am comfortable with, just like any investment it is not right for everyone. Right now land is close to 11000 and acre and I feel that this is just to high for a rental basis. Money can still be made at this price if you are actually farming the land.
Interesting... I suppose your intention is more so to collect rent instead of betting on price appreciation of the asset.
I buy stocks because of capital gains, not dividends, so I tend to think in a different way. But yea, collecting rent as well as the potential for the land to appreciate in value may be attractive. Curious how much demand there is for land though, say for farming. Never thought arable land would be scarce in the mid-west.
Rent per acre for 2011 was 196/acre, in 2010 it was 178. Almost 20 dollars increase in rent in a year. There is a sortage of ag land in the world. Since the American mid west is the grain basket for not only America but a good percentage of the world. Yes land is in demand.
Also you talked about capital gains. When I started land was going for 5000 an acre, now its close to 11000 and acre on average. I would say that beats stocks pretty easy.
That's a nice increase. Wonder if it has anything to do with USD weakness. A lot of commodities (ags here) have doubled in recent years (CPI # is bs imo).
If I get rich my plan is to buy a ranch in Montana with 100+ acres lol. I would worry about liquidity if I ever wanted to sell. It's good that there is demand for arable land but if that wasn't the case owning land would be a nightmare. Not having the ability to collect rent, having to pay taxes, seeing the property depreciate in value while trying to sell an illiquid asset is the risk you have to take I suppose.
Ranch land is much different
Ranch land is much different then farm land. There will always be someone to rent the farm ground. You are correct however with it being illiquid. It is not hard to sell however it does take time, unlike a round lot of shares which can be sold in a matter of seconds. Also you are assocating the housing buble with land too closely. I saw only a few months of asset depreciation over the entire recession. That was only when the credit markets froze up for a month or so. Also I can get leverage upwards of 100 to 1 if i choose. Granted if you are trying to break into the market you wont get near as high of leverage more likely 25 or 30 to 1.
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
Really unique and insightful
Really unique and insightful thread, thanks for taking the time heister. How did you get started investing in land while still in highschool? I'd imagine you would have been far too young and under capitalized to invest even if you financed it. Also, since I've rarely stepped out of the city and suburbs, I'm curious as to how you gained your knowledge about land investing and such?
"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
Macro Arbitrage wrote: Really
Really unique and insightful thread, thanks for taking the time heister. How did you get started investing in land while still in highschool? I'd imagine you would have been far too young and under capitalized to invest even if you financed it. Also, since I've rarely stepped out of the city and suburbs, I'm curious as to how you gained your knowledge about land investing and such?
My great grandfather upon his passing willed me around 900 acres of land in the midwest. This was the initial capital I used to finance my projects since then. I bought an acreage in Texas soon after refinancing my willed acreage. That one was 704 acres, paid about 4700 an acre for that. I some how came up with the mineral rights for this property. It was located in the Barnet Shale, provided for one hell of a windfall. I had to have my parents co sign these loans obviously but they had no problem doing that. I now own acreages in Iowa (3 sepearte acreages), Nebraska (2), Texas, Alaska (3 timber tracts). I am currently looking to purchase a 1100 acre timber tract in a currently unaccesable area of Alaska.
I came into my knowledge from my family. We come from the midwest and have been farmers for generations.
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
How do you feel about
How do you feel about railroads in Australia? A resource based economy, with extraordinary demand from China, and valuations pricing growth stocks like distressed assets.
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Hooked on LEAPS wrote: How do
How do you feel about railroads in Australia? A resource based economy, with extraordinary demand from China, and valuations pricing growth stocks like distressed assets.
Your asking the wrong guy, I can ask my aunt. She is an exec for UP. I'll get back to you on that.
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
heister
On oil and gas E&P...
- size of the position in your portfolio
- types of plays ( nat gas? conventional oil? unconventional? shale?)
- outlook on specifically nat gas and its ability to be stored / transported / developed as a viable alternative to crude.
- why you chose real assets over publicly traded assets?
Oil and gas currently makes up around 30 to 40% of my portfilio. This varries on a month to month basis depending on the amount that is extracted out of the leases in any given month. The extraction also includes a pro rated lease fee for extration. Back in 2004 I purchased a 700 acre farm acreage in Texas. The land happened to be located on the Barnet Shale. This is how I got into oil and gas, I never really had the intent of getting into Natural gas exploration when I started. I don't do much forcasting for natural gas, I run the depletion numbers on my holdings and forcast the expected life of the wells. Out side of that I haven't had the time to expand my gas holdings. My industy outlook is positive, I like the direction that T. Boone Pickens is moving the industry in. I think that the transportation industy is currently terribly weak and needs to be upgraded to include a network of pipelines before natural gas truely becomes fiesable as a fuel for automobiles.
I prefer real assets over publicly traded assest because I can control them. I can kick a farmer out if I do not like they way he is using the ground. I can choose to allow the forrest to be cut for timber or not. This control is impossible in publicly taded companies and assets.
appreciate it. this thread needs to get front paged
Here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, you are the sucker.
heister wrote: Hooked on
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Hooked on LEAPS wrote: How do
Heister, I was in a similar
Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.
-Jeremy Clarkson
Mr Lemon wrote: Heister, I
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This is possibly the most
Reality hits you hard, bro...
MMBinNC wrote: This is
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What's your take on investing
CREAM wrote: What's your take
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
Heister, thanks for creating
STorIB wrote: Heister, thanks
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I can confirm, that we pay
ryanfraser wrote: Hooked on
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche
First off Great post I was
Spuds wrote: First off Great
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Is there any merit in buying
Sean518 wrote: Is there any
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heister wrote: MMBinNC
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
heister wrote: Spuds
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
I looked at a few of your
I rich, smarts, and totally in debt.
MrDouche wrote: I looked at a
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heister wrote: Hooked on
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Cool thread, something that I
pingafrita wrote: Cool
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