Differences in M7 schools for investment management?

Hey everyone, I've recently applied for bschool as a backup in case my fund blew up and have gotten into a few M7 schools.

I've read all the relevant content here on the past (such as Booth vs. Columbia) and most of the threads + replies focus on overall rankings or prestige of the school.

For those of us who are 100% focused on investment management (mutual funds, hedge funds, long only, etc.), are there any major differences between the M7? I guess I'm one of the few people who is looking at a MBA program but not looking to do a career switch. I have previous long/short experience and would probably seek something similar post-grab, albeit in a different region or different strategy (i.e. long only).

My decision is currently around Sloan, Booth, and Columbia. Any differences in these 3 for someone who is 100% focused on investment management? PS: I'm aware Columbia has the Value Investment Program but even with my credentials I'm not banking that I'm 100% going to get in there. Thanks all!

 

Like the majority here I would probably also say Columbia and then do VIP. However, if you don't get into that program, I am unsure how much you'll get out of it tbh. Booth seems academically rigorous, but not sure I am unsure about IM specifics.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing. See my Blog & AMA
 
Best Response

Booth will be as academically rigorous as you want it to be. The flexibility of the program allows you (if you would like) to take extremely rigourous courses in subjects such as stats, economics, analytical finance in your first year, which can be a plus if you would like that sort of academic experience. It also allows you to ignore the most academically rigorous courses altogether if you would prefer.

I've stated in other posts that one of the biggest differentiators for most people deciding between Booth and other MBA business schools ">M7 schools will be flexibility vs cohort structure. It really cannot be understated how much it impacts your experience, and what is right for one person will not be right for another. I personally much preferred the flexibility, which allowed me as a consulting recruit to take some of our most interesting courses across the board, including finance, and for the majority of our classes the prereqs are suggested, so I was able to opt in to some challenging courses without going through the mundane 101 content. It also lets you pick when to take challenging courses, especially useful for recruiting cycles.

 

As a preface, I attended H/S/W and work in long only IM. I was accepted to CBS as well. When it came time to interviews at mutual funds/hedge funds, the vast majority of candidates were from Wharton, Columbia, Harvard, and Booth. Candidates from all four schools were fairly represented. In my class, there were many former analysts in IM / private equity associates who came to business school and recruited for IM. Your success at recruiting will boil down to your past work experience, the quality of your investment ideas, and culture/fit with individual firms. It is unlikely that which of the MBA business schools ">M7 schools you attend will be a significant influence. My friends at Booth and CBS had access to some shops that didn't recruit at H/S/W and vice versa. I don't think you can go wrong choosing either Booth or CBS. Good luck!

 

Two things; not calling you out, just real curiosity: can't you State where you went without risking exposing yourself? #2: so booth vs Columbia comes to personal preference around location really?

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing. See my Blog & AMA
 
masterg:
As a preface, I attended H/S/W and work in long only IM. I was accepted to CBS as well. When it came time to interviews at mutual funds/hedge funds, the vast majority of candidates were from Wharton, Columbia, Harvard, and Booth. Candidates from all four schools were fairly represented. In my class, there were many former analysts in IM / private equity associates who came to business school and recruited for IM. Your success at recruiting will boil down to your past work experience, the quality of your investment ideas, and culture/fit with individual firms. It is unlikely that which of the MBA business schools ">M7 schools you attend will be a significant influence. My friends at Booth and CBS had access to some shops that didn't recruit at H/S/W and vice versa. I don't think you can go wrong choosing either Booth or CBS. Good luck!

This.

Emphasis on: once you are at one of those four schools, which school matters a lot less than the quality of your investment hypothesis and argumentation, and certainly, fit. From what I recall, it was uncommon for people to get multiple offers, but yet quite common for people to get an offer from their favorite shop. Fit seems like a pretty obvious conclusion to me.

The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
 
masterg:
As a preface, I attended H/S/W and work in long only IM. I was accepted to CBS as well. When it came time to interviews at mutual funds/hedge funds, the vast majority of candidates were from Wharton, Columbia, Harvard, and Booth. Candidates from all four schools were fairly represented. In my class, there were many former analysts in IM / private equity associates who came to business school and recruited for IM. Your success at recruiting will boil down to your past work experience, the quality of your investment ideas, and culture/fit with individual firms. It is unlikely that which of the MBA business schools ">M7 schools you attend will be a significant influence. My friends at Booth and CBS had access to some shops that didn't recruit at H/S/W and vice versa. I don't think you can go wrong choosing either Booth or CBS. Good luck!

What about people without any past investment experience? Any hope for them coming out of these schools?

 
N.R.G.:
Booth Columbia Sloan Tuck Stern

Haas - shouldn't be on this list unless you are targeting small shops in the WC London Business School - only if you want to work in Europe

Thanks for your input. I thought Haas gets recruiting from major california firms like pimco, capital group, dodge and cox?

LBS is interesting because of their strong placement in london, singapore, hong kong. Obviously you're at a big disadvantage with the U.S. IM firms and hedge funds.

I heard Stern is AWFUL when it comes to IM recruiting.

 
N.R.G.:
Haas - shouldn't be on this list unless you are targeting small shops in the WC
Where do people get this crap? Berkeley lists on its website several companies that recruit their.

Barclays Wealth Berkeley Endowment Management Company BlackRock Brandes Investment Partners Cambridge Associates Dodge & Cox Fidelity Franklin Templeton Investments

That's not to to mention that every BB and most 2nd/3rd/whatever tier banks recruit there and chances are it's not that hard to break into their AM division. The fact remains that if you can make it into a top 10 MBA program, you really shouldn't be afraid of not being able to break into finance or consulting because those industries love prestige.

 

I think you can still get a job at these firms at Haas, but it will most likely be off-campus and a result of your own efforts.I know of people who got into PIMCO without having OCR at their schools - they just networked, so it can be done. Not sure if all these firms do on-campus or just post job ads - they post these at all top 15 schools. Stern might not be the best choice, but I don't think it's worse than Haas. LBS would be better than these two, but I'm not sure if that holds for US positions - it might tougher.

 
N.R.G.:
I think you can still get a job at these firms at Haas, but it will most likely be off-campus and a result of your own efforts.I know of people who got into PIMCO without having OCR at their schools - they just networked, so it can be done. Not sure if all these firms do on-campus or just post job ads - they post these at all top 15 schools. Stern might not be the best choice, but I don't think it's worse than Haas. LBS would be better than these two, but I'm not sure if that holds for US positions - it might tougher.

I know for a fact that PIMCO recruits at haas but no idea how many they hire. My guess is they will hire a lot more from wharton/booth/columbia and then take the superstars (1 or 2) from haas.

If you were interested in IM and the choice was between haas, stern, or booth part-time, which would you take and why?

 

Booth ~ Columbia then, far below are: Stern/Sloan/Tuck (all else equal, which it never is, if you're obsessed with IM I would probably do NYU for the alumni and proximity for HFs, but for overall experience/career I would rather do Tuck, then MIT, then NYU.)

Booth PT will not get you an IM job. Do not waste your time/money unless you can't get into a FT program, but in any case be prepared to be disappointed.

Capital and D&C hire very few people, and in some years not at all, almost exclusively from Stanford/HBS. PIMCO hires from Haas are probably not for portfolio mgt.

 
IBPEHFVC:
Booth ~ Columbia then, far below are: Stern/Sloan/Tuck (all else equal, which it never is, if you're obsessed with IM I would probably do NYU for the alumni and proximity for HFs, but for overall experience/career I would rather do Tuck, then MIT, then NYU.)

Booth PT will not get you an IM job. Do not waste your time/money unless you can't get into a FT program, but in any case be prepared to be disappointed.

Capital and D&C hire very few people, and in some years not at all, almost exclusively from Stanford/HBS. PIMCO hires from Haas are probably not for portfolio mgt.

Thanks for this input. My understanding was that Stern is awful for buyside because basically no IM or HF recruits there, and not too many alums are in the industry. I'm definitely going to visit next spring and see for myself. But Stern seems like a sellside powerhouse with no presence in buyside.

I've heard good things about tuck and their connections to the big boston IM shops. My only reservations are the awful miserable location and a very small class.

Sloan is weird. Very tech and consulting oriented, but they get pretty good recruiting from boston IM and a few hedge funds in the area like convexity, tudor, windham, grantham mayo.

Regarding booth part-time, is it really that tough to get into IM? People I've talked to said that although part-timers can't get jobs at big IM firms they can probably leverage the network and OCR to get jobs at smaller Chicago IM firms. One guy said that a CFA+booth part-time could go a long way in IM. I'm wondering because if I can't get into a good full-time program I might have no other choice but to do booth PT. Really sucks since I have to take out $100K in loans to pay for it.

 

as ive mentioned this to you before brady, i think booth is better for more quanty shops/hedge funds while columbia is better for the more fundamental/value kind of hedge funds. NYU doesnt get buy side though but tuck and sloan hump the legs of the big IM shops -- i think sloan places into HFs as well more so than tuck so might be a bit above tuck

 

Booth = quant/HFs is a misperception. I think Booth is actually stronger than Columbia for large traditional IM shops, about the same for large hedge funds, obviously not as good for the "value" funds (large or small), and not as good for small HFs (NYC). But honestly, it comes down to the individual, so it's not going to get a material difference in Columbia vs. Booth for strictly on-campus recruiting results.

 

Is it really that hard to get into IM??? I'll go ask several of my friends who already graduated and are still looking for buyside jobs (who have experience and internships from top IM and HFs to boot). This is, and has been for several years now, a terrible time to try and break into a notoriusly difficult field to enter that is also in a secular decline, and has high operating leverage, i.e. can manage much larger $ with same heads.

Look, I don't know your situation, but if you're set on MBA, fine...go to the best FT program you can get into (I gave my order of preference earlier, which doesn't really deviate much from consensus rankings). If you're not happy w/ results, don't settle for Booth PT as the "back door" into a top MBA, it just doesn't work like that. In that case, hunker down where you're at and figure out how to lateral.

 

Brady, I'd put NYU before Haas for anything in IM outside the WC. The reason is that the alumni base of NYU is predominantly in finance due to self selection. Even if most people start on the sellside, there is a higher probability that you'll get more people who have transitioned to the buyside later compared to Haas where very few students are actually interested in finance. If you want to be on the WC, sure, I think you can still get an IM gig in one of the offices there by networking. I'd prefer Haas for anything else, but this is my rationale for IM. Booth PT doesn't work out as a backdoor as far as I know. I've heard mixed stories, but the consensus has been that very few manage to make it to the good jobs from the PT program.

 

^Thanks for showing up to dispel some of the misconceptions about the greatness of Haas when it comes to buyside jobs. I think no one here has actually gone to their website to check their employment reports - this brilliant idea occurred only to you. I admit, I didn't think of it and the fact that Haas lists some IM companies as recruiters, without showing what positions they recruited for or how the students got these jobs (through OCR or off campus), shows that it is definitely a very good place to recruit for IM. I can tell you that BB IBanks actually recruit not only at top 10 schools, but at most top 100 MBA programs. I just checked the employment report of University of Iowa and can you imagine - GS and MS are listed there as major employers. MS also has recruited at Iowa State. I think that definitely makes these schools major targets and you can definitely break into finance from there.

 

Yes, your sarcasm is very convincing. I could tell you about all of the Haas alumni that I am surrounded by at the top 25 AM shop that I work at, or the Haas alumni from BlackRock that I know, but it's not very useful for convincing people in an online forum. There's not too many ways to prove that Haas would do just fine for breaking into AM.

Although it's not perfect we could try Linkedin. Let's choose BlackRock since they are the largest AM shop in the world. Current or former BlackRock employees from: GSB: 29 HBS: 63 Sloan: 29 Kellogg: 44 Booth: 50 Wharton: 175 Tuck: 19 Columbia: 120 Haas: 104

I'd say Haas does just fine considering how small the school is.

 
buybuybuy:
Yes, your sarcasm is very convincing. I could tell you about all of the Haas alumni that I am surrounded by at the top 25 AM shop that I work at, or the Haas alumni from BlackRock that I know, but it's not very useful for convincing people in an online forum. There's not too many ways to prove that Haas would do just fine for breaking into AM.

Although it's not perfect we could try Linkedin. Let's choose BlackRock since they are the largest AM shop in the world. Current or former BlackRock employees from: GSB: 29 HBS: 63 Sloan: 29 Kellogg: 44 Booth: 50 Wharton: 175 Tuck: 19 Columbia: 120 Haas: 104

I'd say Haas does just fine considering how small the school is.

that's funny because you have no idea whether those people are back office or whatever else they may be doing at blackrock.

 
Yes, your sarcasm is very convincing.

What is convincing is not my sarcasm, but rather the flaws in the way you are trying to prove that Haas is good for IM. As I said, the fact that these companies are listed as recruiters doesn’t say what positions the grads took and whether they took them through OCR or through their own legwork. If someone took a job in reporting or FP&A at Blackrock, this is not exactly what people here are after when they say they want to break into IM.

The linkedin argument is even more unconvincing. I did the same thing you did and checked some of the results on the first page. There was a Haas grad in HR, another lady in Team Development & Communications (doesn’t sound like IM to me) and some random guy who never worked at Blackrock, but who was recommended by someone who works at a Blackrock fund and the search engine listed the result because Blackrock appears as a key word in the recommendation. This was only the first page. Not to mention that Haas has an undergrad bschool and your search has included people who did their undergrad there, but went for an MBA elsewhere and didn’t get their Blackrock job through Haas. If you do the same search for Ross, you’ll get the same number of people, which by your logic would mean that Ross is better than HBS for IM. The discussion here is for MBA opportunities in IM, and your results include undergrads and people working in functions not related to IM.

I’d put the MBA programs with respect to IM recruiting in 3 tiers: 1. Very good – most top employers come to campus (H/S/W/Col/Chi) 2. Decent – some top employers come to campus (K/M/Tuck) 3. All else – you might get some OCR, but it’s spotty, most positions are posted as job ads and are not necessarily IM, and you need to do your own legwork rather than rely on OCR. As I said earlier, you can go to Haas, but the outcome will most likely be getting a job on the WC and most likely not through OCR.

 
N.R.G.:
The linkedin argument is even more unconvincing. I did the same thing you did and checked some of the results on the first page. There was a Haas grad in HR, another lady in Team Development & Communications (doesn’t sound like IM to me) and some random guy who never worked at Blackrock, but who was recommended by someone who works at a Blackrock fund and the search engine listed the result because Blackrock appears as a key word in the recommendation. This was only the first page. Not to mention that Haas has an undergrad bschool and your search has included people who did their undergrad there, but went for an MBA elsewhere and didn’t get their Blackrock job through Haas. If you do the same search for Ross, you’ll get the same number of people, which by your logic would mean that Ross is better than HBS for IM. The discussion here is for MBA opportunities in IM, and your results include undergrads and people working in functions not related to IM.
You're completely missing the point. You claimed that Haas sucked for jobs in IM except for a few small shops on the WC. I'm trying to show that Haas is just fine for jobs in IM. I didn't claim that a simple Linkedin search on one company is some objective unflawed measure of how good schools are for certain industries. I'm using it as one indicator that other people on an online forum can verify if they want to. All you've offered in return so far is your personal rankings. Poke as many holes in the LinkedIn results as you'd like, but anyone can look up the history of dozens of other employees who have made it as analysts and PMs at great shops. I'm pretty sure if I were to ask any of my coworkers if Haas was an obstacle to them landing the job, not a single one would say it was.

I'm also not sure why you make this distinction of "relying" on OCR. Who cares how you get the job, as long as you get it. What matters by the time you're in business school is your network, your experience, your school's reputation and your skill set. Fact is, if you've made it to a top 10 MBA, I'm sure you have all 4.

 

personally speaking id much rather be at a school where the firm comes to grovel at my feet as opposed to having to pound the pavement -- and i think you can go ahead and pound the pavement with a lot of schools that are t15 vs MBA business schools">m7/ top IM programs. im sure CMU and haas will have similar numbers coming out nowadays for IM

 
shorttheworld:
what was his background? did he intern and is he refusing to take an ER position at a bank?

consulting it is!!!

He went to a good undergrad business school, worked at deutsche bank for a few years and a university endowment before booth. He interned at a IM shop in Chicago that focuses on small cap stocks but did not get any full-time offers. He's still looking along with a few of his classmates.

 
You claimed that Haas sucked for jobs in IM except for a few small shops on the WC. I'm trying to show that Haas is just fine for jobs in IM.

I claimed that the MBA program at Haas is not a good option if you want to get access to IM recruiting. This has nothing to do with whether someone was able to get a job off campus as it is not related to the Haas MBA. I didn't say that you can't get a job, but rather that Haas won't help you much. Your linkedin search does not show whether Haas is doing fine because many of these people were Haas undergrads - if someone got his BBA there, but went to Booth for his MBA and got an IM job, I don't see how you can claim that this guy got his job because he went to Haas for u-grad. And the other problem is that many of these positions are not in IM and therefore you cannot really compare the figures across schools putting a Blackrock HR from Haas together with a PM from HBS.

All you've offered in return so far is your personal rankings.

This was not my personal ranking, but rather a tiering based on what types of IM employers and how many of them go specifically to a certain school to recruit. In my personal ranking Haas would be higher, however that's not the point here.

I'm also not sure why you make this distinction of "relying" on OCR. Who cares how you get the job, as long as you get it.

I'm making it because that's why you get an MBA. Nobody pays 100k to learn something that can be read by buyng 20 books at 80 bucks each from Amazon. You go there because recruiters come to recruit specifically at your school and if you were not there, they would not look at your resume. It's that simple. The original question was which school is better for IM recruiting, which implies OCR. Otherwise, you might as well go to USC and still network your way in if you are persistent.

 
N.R.G.:
You claimed that Haas sucked for jobs in IM except for a few small shops on the WC. I'm trying to show that Haas is just fine for jobs in IM.

I claimed that the MBA program at Haas is not a good option if you want to get access to IM recruiting. This has nothing to do with whether someone was able to get a job off campus as it is not related to the Haas MBA. I didn't say that you can't get a job, but rather that Haas won't help you much. Your linkedin search does not show whether Haas is doing fine because many of these people were Haas undergrads - if someone got his BBA there, but went to Booth for his MBA and got an IM job, I don't see how you can claim that this guy got his job because he went to Haas for u-grad. And the other problem is that many of these positions are not in IM and therefore you cannot really compare the figures across schools putting a Blackrock HR from Haas together with a PM from HBS.

All you've offered in return so far is your personal rankings.

This was not my personal ranking, but rather a tiering based on what types of IM employers and how many of them go specifically to a certain school to recruit. In my personal ranking Haas would be higher, however that's not the point here.

I'm also not sure why you make this distinction of "relying" on OCR. Who cares how you get the job, as long as you get it.

I'm making it because that's why you get an MBA. Nobody pays 100k to learn something that can be read by buyng 20 books at 80 bucks each from Amazon. You go there because recruiters come to recruit specifically at your school and if you were not there, they would not look at your resume. It's that simple. The original question was which school is better for IM recruiting, which implies OCR. Otherwise, you might as well go to USC and still network your way in if you are persistent.

N.R.G. totally nailed it. One of the reasons why people want so badly to go to a top business school is so they can have access to companies that they don't have otherwise. This is especially true in IM and HF, where the top 7 or 8 schools get the lion's share of on-campus recruiting. Haas is a great business school with strengths in consulting and tech, but if I were to go there to pursue IM, I know for a fact that I will be BUSTING my butt off to network and land interviews. This will make my b-school experience rather unpleasant. At a place like wharton or booth however, the major IM shops come to campus for presentations, events, and interviews. I don't have to worry about trying to get my foot in the door and secure an interview. I can spend my time focusing on doing well in the interview and enjoying my 2 years to party and travel.

HUGE difference.

 

Chicago/Wharton, then a big step down and then Columbia. There's a bigger gap between the 1st 2 schools and Columbia in IM than IB where all 3 schools are essentially the same. I'm sure HBS fares well just b/c it's HBS, but not sure how much of an advantage, if any, it has.

 

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