Recently graduated, and a couple of opportunities I more or less thought were in the bag slipped away. It's really given me time to think, however. The whole reason I got into finance was not to build pitch books, or because I like pitching deals, or dream of building LBOs, or really anything that you might encounter in banking. Sourcing deals might be fun...for a bit. Wouldn't want to do it long term. The whole reason I became interested in finance my freshmen year of college was due to the macroeconomic environment at the time, and how it affected financial markets and various sectors of the economy. I have been an amateur trader for a while now, and have managed to make at least one person very rich. The more I think about it, the more I feel I want to go in that direction.
My only holdup is my GPA, as I see it. Its somewhere between a 3.1 and 3.2, and that's as close as I can type without being embarrassed. I spent a lot of time considering being a lawyer, became disillusioned with my major, yet wanted to graduate in 4 years so I didn't change it. I fucked up. But there's no fixing that now.
My question is, can I still do it? My thought process has become circular in the last few months, and every time I think through where I'm at, where I want to be at some point in my life (equity long/short or global macro fund), and how I should get there while trying to do something I would enjoy, I keep coming back to this. I'm currently located in WI, and most of my friends are in Chicago, so I'd love to get back to the city for work. Does someone in my position have a shot at a decent prop firm (salary enough to live on, good training) in Chicago? Or am I dreaming? Thank you so much for any advice.
I think if you can prove your transactions and the fact you made someone rich, you should have a shot. Unless it was all on one big high risk high return thing, or your definition of 'very rich' is too low. What was your % return, annualised?
Well, dollar wise it wasn't too crazy, but percentage wise...I'd have to do the math. I lost track of the portfolio. I was mostly in Spring, HTC, and Tesla. I was much younger as well. I can't take too much credit, as the amount I know now compared to what I knew in 2010 astounds me...and I certainly am not even close to someone who does this for a living. Right around the time Sprint was launching the 4G Clear network, along with the HTC Evo, I was watching daily volume and price heavily. Made some good trades, made some decent money. Then Tesla IPO'd. I was watching the way it was trading for a while, and then dumped a lot in. I liked how it was going. I also had an intrinsically good feel about the company based on the research I had done. I was in and out of Apple once or twice too in order to catch some bumps due to good news. More or less, imagine a portfolio consisting of 90% TSLA at about IPO price or a little more. Unfortunately, the computer I was using crashed, and I lost contact with the guy. We were friends, but grew apart. As far as I know, there's an account somewhere filled with TSLA that's worth a lot of money.
I think that the trading experience you mentioned is a nice story to talk about in interviews (perhaps why you began to like it so much/what you like about it etc) but it's not enough to get a job on. Essentially, it's one or a few good trades a few years ago- no proven track record. Nothing is impossible, so there is always a chance you could find a good trading job. You will probably need to network extremely well to get a shot- perhaps a Masters degree (MFin or something like that) would help you, but the GPA is probably an issue there too.
Agreed, and that's kind of what I've been thinking. As far as looking towards a master's degrees, will I face the same uphill battle with regards to my undergrad GPA? Is there as much weight on "prestige" of the school if you're looking to get on a prop desk as there is on the banking side? That is definitely something I've considered, but again I look at my GPA, and think that it might be a long shot. I would love to do that, however.
One other point, I've noticed that FNY says a minimum of 3.0 is required to apply to their training program...is this something I should put any stock in? Or is that "3.0 if you've got a track record, otherwise we want 3.8s". After all, my main goal is a training program, since I have much to learn as is. That seems to be the most lenient standard I've seen from a "legit" shop that pays a salary and doesn't expect you bring in capital.
I can't comment on the FNY program- why not apply and see what happens? You've got nothing to lose. Maybe your trading history is enough to get you something there. I think that it's more the latter (we want 3.8's) but they could easily have put 3.5 as a cutoff, so it may well be at least a bit of the former (perhaps you can put some stock in it).
You may face the same uphill battle with regards to your GPA when applying to MFin programs, but shit- if all you're looking for is "a shot at a decent prop firm (salary enough to live on, good training) in Chicago," you don't need to go to a TOP b-school. I'm sure you could get into a lower-tier program that you could outperform in, which could lead to trading opportunities at a half decent firm.
What are you doing while you hunt for this job? You should probably be actively managing your PA to build up a track record you can talk about/so you can stay current.
Happy to help in any way I can.
Unfortunately I can't help with the list of firms, I'm not in S&T. I'm going into IB, and the information I'm giving you is info I've picked up from widely reading WSO (and many threads relating to S&T- I had the option of going into S&T or IB and picked IB, but have researched S&T quite thoroughly). I say that so you know that you can trust the info I send you way, I'll tell you if I don't know something.
Perhaps a search on WSO will yield some good results in terms of prop trading firms- I've seen a comprehensive list on here of boutique banks in the US, maybe you can find something similar. I think finding and reaching out to firms is a great idea, and a necessary one.
Reaching out to someone at FNY etc could certainty help- if nothing comes of it, at the very least you may be able to explain your situation and ask for their advice on what to do to get a trading job.
Have you considered a different job as a pathway to trading? For example, when I was contemplating my S&T offer, it was obvious they mostly saw me as a potential salesperson, and I was asking about mobility and they said that while people usually stay within S&T, it's not unheard of for salespeople to become traders and vice versa. Try and think creatively, you may find an unorthodox but effective solution.
I have looked through the company database on here and will definitely continue to do so, its just hard to figure out which are salary-paying and which are not. Definitely a point I have to do more research on. There's so many firms, but only a few (from what I gather) that fit the "specs" I would need.
I was just about to ask your background, very interesting. I have also looked at some S&T internships for next summer, I am thinking of applying just in case. Otherwise, I have spent much time really thinking about how to get where I want to be, although I definitely am not aware of all the possible moves. I've read about some moving from sales to trading before, although given my qualifications I'm not sure I'd have a decent shot at IB sales....although I should look into that. If that was another way in, that would definitely be worth it.
Half of the difficulty in all this, to me at least, is figuring out which route to take. Really, there's so many different things to do, it's hard to know where they will put you and if they will get you to where you want to be. I guess that's also half the fun though.
How are you supporting yourself financially while you're not working in the job you want? I ask because if you can manage it. reaching out to firms and offering to work unpaid and saying you want experience/want to learn etc, and hope to be considered for FT later, could be a way to go. It's an extreme method and not an ideal one, but it's one way to get the experience you want. Unfortunately, it seems like S&T is even more competitive than IB at many BBs (due in large part to the numbers they hire) but I can't speak to the competitiveness of prop trading firms.
I don't know if you've read this, but I just came across it. Sounds like a similar situation to yours, and it seems like it was from a while ago- perhaps you could PM the OP of that thread to see what the outcome of his/her search was and ask for their advice. First comment tells OP to pm someone else, maybe try them too.
Did you mean to post a link with that? Unless I'm not seeing something on my end haha
I agree that prop trading seems to be less selective than S&T at investment banks. Another option that you could try and use as a launching pad would be trader/assistant trader at a mutual fund or something similar. Definitely throw your hat in the ring, sooner rather than later and cast a wide net. What about something like trading assistant at the CME etc? You should reach out to almost any job that has a trading aspect to it if you can no longer afford to be picky- it'll be much easier to move to something more relevant from there than from something unrelated.
Sorry, this is the link I meant to post: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/how-to-get-a-start-in-physical-oil-tradi…
Check it out/talk to people mentioned there, it might be helpful.
Wow I've almost read that thread a million times..but I kept putting it off. Thanks for recommending it, I'm going through it right now.
Good point about the mutual fund opportunities, I have to confess I've never looked in that direction. Deciding to jump into trading late has definitely meant I have a lot to learn about the various career paths.
I've been looking into CME, I have a couple friends that work there actually, although they haven't been helpful as contacts. I am trying again however. Initially I had the same thought, that it would be a great way to get my foot in the door. However, I was discouraged by someone else from doing that. Probably should not have listened to them. Better late than never. I am definitely pursuing that option as well. As far as I know, it would seem like a great way to get started.
Yeah unfortunately at this point you don't seem to have the luxury of being picky...explore all opportunities, take what you can get and go from there. I agree that CME etc probably isn't your BEST bet, but it'd be better than something completely unrelated if you want to break into trading later- you'd pick up at least a few directly relevant skills and that should help. Good luck, and let me know how it goes. Feel free to ask any other questions etc, happy to help if I can.
Where did you go to school? What did you major in? A 3.1-3.2 GPA isn't so bad under certain circumstances. I had the same thing and I did fine (I blogged about this a couple of weeks ago here).
Private school in Northwestern Indiana, majored in finance. GPA was due to a few factors, some beyond my control but I definitely should have done better. What was your post about? I would love to take a look at it.
3.3 GPA (non-target) trader here, buy-side fixed income. What I recommend/what I did: find any trader assistant job you can get, preferably at a smaller firm where things are less organized/hierarchical. Work your ass off (I worked 2 hours a day longer than any other junior person at my firm) and take on any extra work you can get to gain trust/get responsibility.
The downsides to this strategy are that you'll A) probably make no money by finance standards while in the assistant role, B) aspects of your work may be quite menial, and C) if you fail to make the leap to trader you'll either be pigeon-holed in ops or some sort of accounting crap. I personally set myself a 2 year deadline to make the jump to trader, it ended up taking about exactly that long. I was fully prepared to find a new career when it looked like it was in doubt, you should make sure you're comfortable with this level of risk.
Thanks for this. I am considering this right now. I am looking at assistant trader jobs and so far I've found some. Even long hours as a trader are nothing compared to long hours as an IB analyst so that doesn't bother me. Is compensation at least usually enough to make a living on? I'd like to at least be able to afford to live in a not shit place and drive a car newer than the 25 year old pile I have now. Second, what factors do you see making someone likely to succeed in making the jump? Mostly in terms of what skills and knowledge is important to know?
I said the salary was low by finance standards, I'm in the Philly area, I started @ around 40k, got 5-10k raises every year while an assistant/transitioning to a trader role. I had passed CFA level 1 when I started which was a little helpful for the actual job and a lot more helpful during the interview process. Otherwise all of the excel that I learned during my internships was big, I did the wallstreetprep program which was a helpful refresher before my interviews.
I also started trading young, during high school, and ran up an account in a similar fashion on high-beta tech stocks. This was a good thing to talk about during interviews from the perspective of why I was passionate about the field and interested in trading. I never tried to pass it off as any real trading acumen, as trading a retail account is totally different than at a big institution. This seemed to work well, always made it passed the first round at least.
It makes no sense to wait until you pass CFA or something like that. Just the act of being the program telegraph's sufficient interest/seriousness, though passing it already would be nice. Start applying now, there's no benefit to being unemployed longer in terms of preparation. Trading gets very product specific, so I can't foresee you being able to learn anything now that you wouldn't learn on the job in 3 weeks. If a firm is interviewing for entry level they're looking for interest & aptitude, not hard skills and knowledge.
Right. My only worry is making sure I have what's needed to be competent during the interview process (assuming I got one). Last thing I would want is to get caught with my pants down metaphorically when they ask a question I cannot answer. But I'll keep pressing, and start applying. Thanks for the advice. SB if I could to everyone so far.
Do Trading Firms Have GPA/SAT Cutoff? (Originally Posted: 09/20/2009)
For entry-level, do trading firms usually have a cutoff for GPA/SAT or they care more about your aptitude/ability to be a trader?
Varies by firm. If you are worried about your creds then they will be too...so you will need to crush the interview
I also have a related question. If your GPA is subpar, but you still get a first round interview, is it safe to assume that you are on a level field with everyone else and that they won't bring it up in an interview?
Depends. I've had my low (3.1) GPA brought up during some interviews, but as long as you can prove that you're the person for the job it is a non-issue.
CatsLHP your a beast. Rawrrrr.
"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
Trading GPA (Originally Posted: 03/22/2010)
Assuming that I have a 3.1 coming from a target school, how competitive (read: how many first round interviews_ do you think I would be for BB S&T? I know for IB there is an unofficial 3.5+ to get a large portion of interviews. This summer I will be working either as a commercial loan credit analyst (doing analysis similar to Real Estate IB and also commercial loan analysis/merger analysis) or as an M&A intern at a small boutique.
REIB isnt credit analysis. just an fyi
S&T recruiting is just as competitive as IB. I have no idea why you would think any different. :(
it's all about networking bro. there are plenty of WSO BB S&T'ers here. tell them to hook a brotha up.
a lot of other factors play in, just looking at the 3.1 I'd say it'll be very competitive/tough for you to get a slot... nothing's impossible though good luck buddy
I got an interview at GS S&T with a 3.3 from a non-target.
I had a first round S&T from GS with 3.4 from a target but didn't get accepted to numerous other first rounders (MS, BoA, Citi, Deutsche, JPM, UBS).
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