Swiss Govt Goes to Bat for US Account Holders 
(Neanderthal, 2714 
Points) on 7/8/09 at 9:11am
The Swiss government is refusing to allow UBS to turn over client data to the IRS, and has threatened to seize the data themselves to protect client privacy and enforce Swiss banking secrecy laws:
http://in.reuters.com/article/fundsNews/idINL849735520090708?sp=true
"Switzerland will use its legal authority to ensure that the bank cannot be pressured to transmit the information illegally, including if necessary by issuing an order taking effective control of the data at UBS," the Swiss government said in a response to U.S. authorities filed in Miami on Tuesday.
Now I know some of you think this is just about tax cheats and that they should get what they deserve. I would urge you to take a macro view of the situation and realize that the US government will not stop its attack on private property until someone draws a line in the sand.
It's disheartening to think that we should have to rely on a foreign entity to help shackle the government beast that has been unleashed, but in the absence of any Americans willing to do anything, I'll take it.
still on the fence about this one..
by vI'm not sure what I want to happen here. On the one hand, if the US govt backs down, they will certainly create a precedent drawing more and more people into offshore accounts, therefore shrinking the pool of taxable income, and possibly increasing the tax rate on people like me who can't afford an account in Switzerland.
On the other hand, if they eventually get the information they want and start suing people left and right, a lot of wealthy people will get pissed and look for an alternative. Which won't really get us anywhere. Plus the added friction with the Swiss.
Also, anyone know what jurisdiction this might fall under? I don't think there are any international agreements on this, but I've not looked into it enough.
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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
So the Swiss government is
by models_and_bottlesSo the Swiss government is agreeing to protect U.S. tax cheats. Why is this good for our country? Don't pretend they are doing this for philosophical reasons ("we the Swiss disagree with the U.S. tax rate and stand with their tax cheats in protest!"), it's all about money.
As I've said before, if the Swiss don't like our tax or banking laws they can do business elsewhere. There are plenty of other banks / countries willing to abide by our laws.
If you work at UBS, you
by Marcus_HalberstramIf you work at UBS, you should have the option of having your paycheck direct-deposited from a non-US entity into a numbered Swiss bank account.
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Whew...
by Edmundo BravermanGlad to see the old profile pic back, Marcus. The new one you had for a while was...disquieting.
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If they give in and break
by San FordIf they give in and break their vow of privacy, just because the US sabre is being rattled, that will drastically damage their standing with their worldwide client base, since secrecy is their primary selling point.
But of course it's all about the money. This is an investment banking-themed forum, so... is that even an issue? This isn't non-profit_oasis.com Should they sacrifice their profitability to accomodate differences in domestic laws? I don't think so. If the US wants to forbid any citizens from having offshore accounts, fine. But our jurisdiction does not overlap as much as we want everyone to believe.
Jolly good, the US needs to
by Yacht_manJolly good, the US needs to learn to respect other countries laws, I'm glad the swiss are giving the finger to the US.
More power to them.
"Banking - It is what it is"
.
by PussInBootsSwiss bank accounts were always famous for their secrecy. I was raised in one of European countries and since young childhood I knew Swiss bank account were the best private accounts (thanks to movies and news).
My dad told me that back in 80s all you had to have is money and some name to open bank account there.
Swiss Govt is protecting its banks because of long-standing principles.
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non-profit_oasis.com lol
by jackofalltradesnon-profit_oasis.com lol
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lets be honest
by AnotherDayI wanted to comment on this topic because I think some may be missing some salient points. To preface my comments, I would like to say that I am not a fan of the current swing towards leftism but I feel this topic touches on larger points. I also would like to say that I am aware not all American clients of the "offshore" offerings of UBS and other smaller Swiss banks are tax cheats, but we all know that a very significant percentage are.
Now, I don't believe in this "against the rich" BS. We all know it has nothing to do with being rich. Plenty of people are rich, but only a certain set of people choose to hide there money in Swiss accounts.
If you don't like the Taxation here in the States, then VOTE! Vote for a fiscally responsible politician. Vote for a candidate that embraces free market principles and encourages the incentive based system that rewards hard work and ambition.
By standing up for this BS you are giving fodder for all those class mongers who claim that the rich are just pulling a fast one on the nation.
By standing up for this BS you are depriving our nation of funds. You are allowing people who don't have the decency to respect laws the chance to enjoy all the benefits of being an American without its responsibilities and challenges.
By standing up for this BS you are allowing people to reap the benefits of the sacrifices of our soldiers, but yet dodge paying their fair share for the support of those very same soldiers
Taxation is rough on everyone. Hardworking bankers get bitten in the UK, in France, and here in the States. Taxes are bitch in many locales, so instead of lamenting the situation, stand up and speak with your vote and political weight.
I think most of us here know how hard it is to wake up on a Saturday morning and go into the office. To work those 70 and 80 hours. All those nights fighting for every A, doing every problem set, getting into the best programs. Even you college guys on here are to be admired, while many of your peers lackadaisically frolic around campus, you guys are pushing yourselves to be the best you can be. That's why it feels bad when you realize that your hard earned dollar is taxed at 33% or 35% while Joe in the Baltimore office in HR who makes 33K a year pays 15%.
But cheating is not the answer. If you don't want to pay American taxes then please join the Swiss in Geneva, because frankly this is the burden of being an American, hiding our money in Switzerland isn't going to change that. Freedom isn't cheap and while America isn't perfect its our duty to vote for and encourage values based on equity and incentives, but if your only willing to reap the benefits of being American but not pay the dues, then that's a problem.
P.S. I mean no disrespect to the Swiss, you are a sovereign people with your own history and laws and are entitled to defend it.
Quote: Should they
by models_and_bottlesShould they sacrifice their profitability to accomodate differences in domestic laws?
YES. A basic principle of business is you respect the laws of the countries in which you operate.
Put it another way, if I open a business in Switzerland I am expected to respect their laws, pay their taxes, and not abet illegal activity. The Swiss would be in an uproar if the U.S. banks were helping their citizens dodge taxes.
If you don't like the current fiscal situation (and many understandably do not), then VOTE and advocate for change. Taking the side of tax cheats is not the answer.
The US has no fucking
by Marcus_HalberstramThe US has no fucking business sticking their nose in other countries and telling them to violate their laws and principles to appease the US. PERIOD.
If Americans are sidestepping their tax obligations, too fucking bad.
If Saudi Arabia contacts the US and tells them to hand over the information on all Saudi national women who have drivers licenses in the US, they should do so?
By standing up for this BS you are allowing people to reap the benefits of the sacrifices of our soldiers, but yet dodge paying their fair share for the support of those very same soldiers
What a crock of shit.
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Quote: If Americans are
by models_and_bottlesIf Americans are sidestepping their tax obligations, too fucking bad.
There's the attitude. No wonder why we're in such a mess. How exactly would a government run without taxes? I am anxious to see your extreme right wing / Ron Paul type theory on how a tax-free government would operate.
If Saudi Arabia contacts the US and tells them to hand over the information on all Saudi national women who have drivers licenses in the US, they should do so?
This is a very poor analogy. Comparing political asylum to a foreign company helping citizens dodge taxes? Perhaps you could stretch your analogy a little further and claim the Swiss banks are preventing a holocaust.
IRS - Full of lifes failures
by Yacht_manIf Americans are sidestepping their tax obligations, too fucking bad.
There's the attitude. No wonder why we're in such a mess. How exactly would a government run without taxes? I am anxious to see your extreme right wing / Ron Paul type theory on how a tax-free government would operate.
If Saudi Arabia contacts the US and tells them to hand over the information on all Saudi national women who have drivers licenses in the US, they should do so?
This is a very poor analogy. Comparing political asylum to a foreign company helping citizens dodge taxes? Perhaps you could stretch your analogy a little further and claim the Swiss banks are preventing a holocaust.
The government is a waste of tax payer money. I for one support the Swiss, nothing beats telling the IRS to go F them selves, bunch of socialist cocks.
"Banking - It is what it is"
I hope you never need roads,
by models_and_bottlesI hope you never need roads, police, a justice system (including enforcement of contracts), etc. Don't forget about the military and those other small items. All that's just a big waste of money, right?
...
by Marcus_HalberstramI hope you never need roads, police, a justice system (including enforcement of contracts), etc. Don't forget about the military and those other small items. All that's just a big waste of money, right?
Hey dick wad, I never said we don't need taxes. I said we have no business poking our nose in other people's business and demanding they compromise their principles and laws in order to help us enforce ours.
Also, no one from fucking Saudi Arabia gets asylum in the US, fucktard. I know you took a sociology and politics class at SUNY Oneonta and think you fucking know something, but it was a perfect analogy.
The reason we are in 'such a mess' is because there is such a thing as economic cycles, and every 4 or 5 years, we find ourselves in 'such a mess' the likes of which we've never seen before and we never will see again, if we manage to survive. The second reason we are in such a mess is because the average American is as dumb, if not dumber, than you
If I were your mom, I would have aborted you.
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Socialists are cocks.
by Yacht_manI hope you never need roads, police, a justice system (including enforcement of contracts), etc. Don't forget about the military and those other small items. All that's just a big waste of money, right?
I should rephrase, the government is LARGELY a waste of tax payer money. If they ran for profit we'd be much better off.
"Banking - It is what it is"
Nobody is saying those
by FIat35I hope you never need roads, police, a justice system (including enforcement of contracts), etc. Don't forget about the military and those other small items. All that's just a big waste of money, right?
Nobody is saying those things aren't important. Actually, these things are too important to have the state monopolize it.
By your logic, if the state tomorrow starts regulating the dating market under the premise that the 'bad' guys get all the hot girls, would you argue we need to pay taxes because sex is so important? We can't have all those sex cheats looking for girlfriends in Switzerland, can we!?
...
by Marcus_HalberstramI hope you never need roads, police, a justice system (including enforcement of contracts), etc. Don't forget about the military and those other small items. All that's just a big waste of money, right?
Nobody is saying those things aren't important. Actually, these things are too important to have the state monopolize it.
By your logic, if the state tomorrow starts regulating the dating market under the premise that the 'bad' guys get all the hot girls, would you argue we need to pay taxes because sex is so important? We can't have all those sex cheats looking for girlfriends in Switzerland, can we!?
You honestly believe this guy has sex?
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Naivete
by Edmundo BravermanOkay, tax apologists, one more time for the cheap seats.
Your income tax money DOES NOT pay for roads, police, fire departments, schools, etc... and any other service you may consider "essential". These are funded through usage taxes. For example, the tax you pay on a gallon of gas pays for the roads. Your property taxes pay for the schools. Your property taxes and sales taxes pay for the cops, firemen, etc.
So, what does your income tax money pay for?
Well, it does pay for the military. So there's that.
What else does it pay for?
Other essential services like guaranteeing that 13-year old Cindy-Lou has access to a late-term abortion without her parents' knowledge or consent. Or for a squad of thugs to make sure little Johnny isn't smoking a joint out behind the school. Or to make sure none of our elected officials have to sit their ass on a commercial airliner with the peasants.
Yup. Money well spent.
Until America wakes up and realizes that government is the problem and not the solution, we will continue to circle the drain.
And don't even get me started on voting. Voting only encourages the bastards.
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One final question
by Edmundo BravermanBefore you hop up on your soapbox and list all the reasons we have to pay Federal income taxes.
How did our country survive for 126 years without them?
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I don't know and I don't care.
by FIat35You honestly believe this guy has sex?
I don't know and I don't care.
Capitalists = Libertarians
by FIat35How did our country survive for 126 years without them?
Amen to that!
Everybody who calls himself a 'capitalist' - and I suspect many on this board do - should learn about Austrian economics to be intellectually worthy of using that noble title.
(For those interested, mises.org and to a lesser extent cato.org and fee.org are good sources.)
Frankly, I hope most of the tax defenders above are high school kids, because if this is an indication of Wall Street intellect, we'll all be billionaires soon - and hungry.
models_and_bottles may be tax accountant
by PutzGive him a break, he probably works in the tax industry - that byzantine maze built on the overreaching hand of government. Despite our complaints he will continue modeling_and_bottling by night using his pay raise that owes its growing size to the new massive paperwork and tax laws mandated by Obama.
Flat35 - I have "Road To Serfdom" by Hayek, will read soon. I recommend "The Law" by the classical liberal Frederick Bastiat, a short book explaining how government functions that extend beyond protecting citizens property against fraud or violence is simply "legalized plunder".
So does anyone think UBS
by wingman12So does anyone think UBS will get shut down by the US govt?
Probably just a hefty fine
by Edmundo BravermanBut that's just my guess.
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That's kinda what I think
by wingman12That's kinda what I think too
Quote: Okay, tax
by models_and_bottlesOkay, tax apologists, one more time for the cheap seats.
Your income tax money DOES NOT pay for roads, police, fire departments, schools, etc... and any other service you may consider "essential". These are funded through usage taxes. For example, the tax you pay on a gallon of gas pays for the roads. Your property taxes pay for the schools. Your property taxes and sales taxes pay for the cops, firemen, etc.
So, what does your income tax money pay for?
Well, it does pay for the military. So there's that.
Are you sure about that? Don't forget all those federal grants that pay for a substantial portion (often majority) of what you listed above.
Let's be more accurate, how about everybody takes a look at the federal budget and tell me which parts you would like to cut out. Here's the link below:
http://www.federalbudget.com/
Please tell me what you would like to cut.
PS - I love the people posting at 1-2 am accusing me of not having a life. Brings a smile to my face.
Nice books
by FIat35Flat35 - I have "Road To Serfdom" by Hayek, will read soon. I recommend "The Law" by the classical liberal Frederick Bastiat, a short book explaining how government functions that extend beyond protecting citizens property against fraud or violence is simply "legalized plunder".
It's a good start and certainly not a waste of time. If you read some Rothbard after that you'll realize that you have to take the principles to their logical conclusion, and will - sooner or later - move from minarchism to anarcho-capitalism.
My cuts
by Edmundo BravermanThanks for the link M&B. Here is what I'd cut:
Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid - GONE
Health and Human Services - GONE
Dept of Agriculture (are you fucking kidding me?) - GONE
Office of Personnel Management - Scaled WAY back to account for the 93% reduction in government personnel
Dept of Transportation - Be Serious
Dept of Labor - GONE
Dept of Education - Kill this motherfucker and the literacy rate doubles, guaranteed
Housing & Urban Development - GONE
Dept of Energy - Gone
Homeland Security - This abortion should have never happened in the first place
NASA - Again, are you fucking kidding me? GONE
Wow, that was easy. Did I miss anyone?
Problem solved.
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Adolph
by newbie2bankingPerhaps you could stretch your analogy a little further and claim the Swiss banks are preventing a holocaust.
Preventing a holocaust??? The Swiss financed Hitler! UBS has a very sordid past.
If they had the opportunity to do it again, they would... Anything for a buck.
There isn't a nation on earth that sickens me more than the Swiss.
....
by ideatingTwo possibilities - you are just being an asshole and fucking around in which case I salute you. Or you really believe in what you are saying and are a moron.
Thanks for the link M&B. Here is what I'd cut:
Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid - GONE
Health and Human Services - GONE
Dept of Agriculture (are you fucking kidding me?) - GONE
Office of Personnel Management - Scaled WAY back to account for the 93% reduction in government personnel
Dept of Transportation - Be Serious
Dept of Labor - GONE
Dept of Education - Kill this motherfucker and the literacy rate doubles, guaranteed
Housing & Urban Development - GONE
Dept of Energy - Gone
Homeland Security - This abortion should have never happened in the first place
NASA - Again, are you fucking kidding me? GONE
Wow, that was easy. Did I miss anyone?
Problem solved.
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It must be the latter..
by Edmundo BravermanTwo possibilities - you are just being an asshole and fucking around in which case I salute you. Or you really believe in what you are saying and are a moron.
Because I can't for the life of me figure out how we survived as a country for almost 150 years without any of this shit.
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, kid.
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...
by ideatingKeep making dismissive statements while pushing retarded hokey "wisdom", old man.
I'm not going to do a point by point but this one was just too easy:
"Dept of Education - Kill this motherfucker and the literacy rate doubles, guaranteed"
The imbecile libertarians always hold a special place in the political discourse. ("yes, screw public roads - let people build their own roads wherever they want to go! free markets!!")
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One of the best threads I've
by MezzOne of the best threads I've read in a while; made me laugh and think at the same time, haha.
Keep it going.
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ideating
by franklinfKeep making dismissive statements while pushing retarded hokey "wisdom", old man.
I'm not going to do a point by point but this one was just too easy:
"Dept of Education - Kill this motherfucker and the literacy rate doubles, guaranteed"
The imbecile libertarians always hold a special place in the political discourse. ("yes, screw public roads - let people build their own roads wherever they want to go! free markets!!")
it worked during the 19th century. which railroads and steamship lines were successful / providing services where needed / lowered prices? the non government ones (Vanderbilt, James Hill). Nothing like govt. meddling to help the economy. Companies should definitely have faced antitrust suits because they lowered prices, right?
The Fed Govt. is going to work really efficiently with no pork right?
Tell me why the Dept. of Education is needed. I didn't realize public schools were so successful or that no one was learning anything in the USA until 1980.
The problem is there's so
by Marcus_HalberstramThe problem is there's so much bullshit in each one of those categories... and the scale is 100 billions.... seriously. So you could very well be spending 500 million on tooth brush bristle research grants and it wouldnt even be visible at that chart. No one on this board is going to tell me that there isn't a shit load of money being spent on the dumbest shit.
I say we get Bain and McK to scrutinize the itemized breakdown of the US budget and I assure you, the tooth brush example above won't seem so ridiculous.
And Models and Bottles... its called a job. No one was calling you douche bag because of the time of day you're on here, it had more to do with your repugnant personality. You and MichaelHutchins must be roomates.
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bain
by franklinftoo bad Romney isn't president
Seems like things are
by wingman12Seems like things are escalating or atleast not getting settled in this UBS case. I just signed a lease on an apartment in NYC and start work at UBS in a few weeks. If these IRS douches seize all of UBS assets I'm gonna go postal on their ass.
Yeah, you're right.
by Edmundo BravermanThe imbecile libertarians always hold a special place in the political discourse.
That freedom shit is for pussies.
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You guys dont have a clue what you are talking about
by SwissasUS law does not have jurisdiction over Switzerland. UBS has already payed a substantial fine and, along with many other Swiss banks, no longer offers offshore services to US clients. All the clients in question have had their accounts at UBS closed and are no longer customers. The US has no information on these clients thats why they are demanding a john doe summons because they don't know the names let alone the account information of US domiciled clients. Furthermore all this information is in Switzerland as the account was opened in Switzerland and not in the US. The US government needs to get a grip on its hubris problem and start respecting the laws of other nations and the treaties it has signed with other nations.
The Swiss, like the US, view
by SwissasThe Swiss, like the US, view information held in Switzerland as being their information. As was the case with Marc Rich. Under the current tax treaty with the US the Swiss are only obligated to give up information on US persons if there is a specific inquiry with evidence to support a claim of 'tax fraud or the like' and if that person. It would seem that the US and not the Swiss who are violating norms of 'international comity'. Finally, if you liked Lehman and Bear Stearns just wait and see the systematic worldwide financial disaster caused by a UBS collapses considering the fact that the value of its invested assets exceeds 3 trillion CHF.
That makes me feel a little
by wingman12That makes me feel a little better
SWISS GOV. Amicus Curiae
by Swissasif you want to get a better understanding of the case I suggest you read the Swiss gov response to the IRS amicus curaie:
http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/etc/medialib/data/pressemitteilung/2009/2009-07...
and of course the IRS's amicus curaie to get an understanding of both sides.
The problem is not if the
by zhouijThe problem is not if the banks are helping tax-evaders or not, the problem is how far will the US government go when they start to violate other nations' and their own privacy laws? Where will they draw the line? And it is up to who to decide?
This just reminded me of that famous poem from Pastor Martin Niemöller:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."