I think if Obama wins re-election, and the democrats maintain both houses of congress, they will push through the most anti-business legislations in at least 40 years. Tax hikes on income and capital gains are coming, in order to finance Obama's massive expansion of government. I shudder at the thought of what will happen if cap and trade passes, along with amnesty of illegal immigrants. By 2016, we should see a conspicuous drain of talent from America to more business friendly places like hong kong. Already, a number of high tech firms have left silicon valley for asia due to lower costs and pro-business environments. China will stop at nothing to poach our best talent.

This argument doesn't hold up. How many of your friends and family are going to move to China or Switzerland because of a rise in the highest income tax bracket. As recently as the 70's the highest tax bracket was well in excess of 50% and we didn't see this. Same with capital gains. The whole supply side argument of "people won't be motivated to work if taxes go up 5%" is completely specious. There's a taxation elasticity, just as their is in the demand/price relationship. At the extreme end, ala Sweden's 90% highest tax rate, then yes, people are going to not be as motivated to work hard. But can you say with a straight face that the average I-Banker is going to say "fuck it" and move his family or not work as hard because his tax rate just went from 35 to 40 %?

This 5% increase will be what it takes to reduce the deficit and pay off these wars we've started this decade. The Reagan/Bush tactic of lowering taxes while spending more on defense never "grew our way out of deficits" as it was promised. Secondly, outsourcing and a service sector economy are facts of life and not going to stop for our lifetimes. It's a race to the bottom in terms of wages worldwide, so of course people are going to demand more government services because the average person's real wages haven't increased in the last two decades. Manufacturing jobs, which had their wages increased through a century of unionization, have now left, leaving non-unionized service sector jobs in their place.

Eh, I think you're overreacting. When have financiers/traders ever been truly glorified or appreciated? "I would like to give a public service announcement to celebrate National Financial Industry Appreciation Day, because without them, we wouldn't have efficient markets in our thousands of publicly traded companies across this great land"

Well if you look at Greece recently those that can afford to and don't mind moving are moving. But the US is a different story than a sea of nation-states like the EU. There is inter-state migration though on some marginal level, it will increase dramatically though if enough economic pressures build up in certain cities.

On a smaller scale we do see this very same migration when Celebrities and wealthy people form all industries make their home in Tax Havens like CT though they may own an apartment and work in NY or Mass.

And that's for an even smaller percentage of income level tax than is likely to increase on the federal level if Obama serves another four years; or more importantly, congress does not turn over.

I heard someone on this site quote a source that said top earners living in NY will be paying 50% on their income total (not 50% highest tax bracket). In America, with our lack luster and inefficient government amenities don't you think that is ridiculous?

I think NYC + NY tax can go up to around 12-13% on top of federal. I was semi considering living there for a year to try it out but that made it a pretty easy no (also barely knowing anyone there was a large factor).

"How lucky you are? I had someplace to escape to."

Yeah man, I'm gonna move to China - one of the least chill places in the world where you can get your nuts chopped off for doing drugs - because of taxes...

Sorry dude - you don't leave a city like NYC because the tax bracket is a little higher. I'm in my 20s and my priority isn't saving lots of money so I can ... party in NYC more?

To get back on track;

The only Asian Country I mentioned was Japan, and I agree that HK or Taiwaiin is also a possible Haven.

Nobody should ever be talking about China on this thread unless they are looking for children with nimble fingers to work in their factories, which I'm not.

The Dubai comment was warranted, but don't you think that an influx of Westerners can change the Culture in AbuDahbi and Dubai? I think as recently as 10 years ago you couldn't by alcohol in either city, and with-in the past five years they've begun selling low-alcohol beverages like boxed wine.

Correct me if I'm wrong there. I mean, they are trying desperately to bring in Westerners, they are going to have to lower their standards or their economy is completely F'ed because the way islamic culture works, most people who accumulate wealth in one area belong to a clan or family and will rarely leave their village, let alone, SA, Jordan, Iran/Iraq. (Education is the one possible exception)

Call me simple, but I would sooner give up my own life than my American citizenship or my ability to live in America.

I don't understand the fear of higher taxes that some of us have. When you look at countries like Germany, France, Switzerland that have smooth roads, free healthcare, free schools, 70% of unemployment insurance if you lose your job, better public transit systems....what do you think pays for that?? TAXES. In life you pay either way, no point in leaving the country. You either pay in taxes or out of pocket but you pay. So unless you plan on moving to Rwanda or some other country with a non-existent government, you will pay. The only suggestion I would have for someone in their teens is to consider higher ed in Europe or any other country with free schools. Entry level comp, in all industries, is dropping and I'm hearing more and more stories of 22 year olds graduating with 50,60k in debt just to make 50k, if that.

I'm moving to Galt's Gulch

I've heard of Brits leaving for Australia in pretty large numbers but I'm not too sure where Americans would go, Aus and Nz seem like the only viable options but we don't really have a connection to those countries like the Brits do. HK, UAE and Singapore seem like good options too but doubt they could handle a huge influx of foreigners.

I doubt high taxes are going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back though.

^^^^ Your argument is too ignorant to even be asinine. I take it you've never set foot in another country. "Europe gives out free shit to people". It's not free, their sky high income taxes and social contributions pay for it. Do you think Merkel and Sarcozy walk up to random people handing them wads of Euros? Really?! You're missing the point I made. Whether you pay for services through taxes or you pay for them out of pocket, either way you pay so there's no point in exploring other G-20 citizenships. As far as self-reliance? You have got to be kidding me. Aside from the pool of gvt parasites, do you really think a record number of Americans are relying on unemployment and welfare checks for shits n giggles? There's a great big world out there once you step away from FiDi, you should explore it. Everyone doesn't choose to struggle.

"As a very important source of strength and security, cherish public credit. One method of preserving it is to use it as sparingly as possible, avoiding occasions of expense by cultivating peace, but remembering also that timely disbursements to prepare for danger frequently prevent much greater disbursements to repel it, avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt, not only by shunning occasions of expense, but by vigorous exertion in time of peace to discharge the debts which unavoidable wars may have occasioned, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the burden which we ourselves ought to bear. The execution of these maxims belongs to your representatives, but it is necessary that public opinion should co-operate. To facilitate to them the performance of their duty, it is essential that you should practically bear in mind that towards the payment of debts there must be revenue; that to have revenue there must be taxes; that no taxes can be devised which are not more or less inconvenient and unpleasant; that the intrinsic embarrassment, inseparable from the selection of the proper objects (which is always a choice of difficulties), ought to be a decisive motive for a candid construction of the conduct of the government in making it, and for a spirit of acquiescence in the measures for obtaining revenue, which the public exigencies may at any time dictate."

Further down...

"The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities. "

"Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel. "

-George Washington's Farewell Address of 1796 advocating as to why America is better than Europe and should not seek to emulate Europe as a model

I didn't get the "to why America is better than Europe " part...

Also don't forget that the document is from 1796, lots of things have changed since then... A country has to adapt to the ever changing world...

I didn't get the "to why America is better than Europe " part...

Also don't forget that the document is from 1796, lots of things have changed since then... A country has to adapt to the ever changing world...

I'm moving from London to Sydney ASAP. Better quality of life, lower cost of living, growing economy as opposed to the shitshow that is the UK under Labour (they actually have a shortage of investment bankers in Australia right now!), and, quite unbelievably considering the size and remoteness of Australia relative to its population, lower taxes. The UK has become an absolute joke to live and work in.

I would add that though I'm a US citizen I haven't given any serious thought to moving to the States which would certainly not have been the case a couple years ago.

IMO the BIG winners will be Singapore and especially Hong Kong, which is now considered the 'free-est' economy in the world and has 15% taxes and a pretty good quality of life. Within 5 years HSBC, Prudential (UK) and Standard Chartered will have fully relocated to HK for example. The UK is utterly, utterly screwed.

I would rather cut my manhood off with a rusty pocket knife than live in the Middle East.

Oh and in case you haven't noticed I am quite bearish on the UK.

"I hear it's very difficult to ditch American Citizenship, but what's ironic is the reason it is so hard is because of Tax evasion, not because your contribution to our country is actually valued."

While the difficulties in expatriation are immense, the least of which is "ditching" one's American citizenship. It boils down to writing a letter denouncing your citizenship, waiting-out the "grace" period (if I recall correctly it's 6-12 months, or similar) that is standard to allow you time to reconsider, then you're officially not an American anymore.

If you were including difficulties with obtaining citizenship elsewhere, and the general difficulties with expatriating, then ok. But America cannot make you stay an American, for tax purposes or any other reasons.

how does it work when you are in another country and are a US citizen? Don't you pay taxes to the US no matter what country you're working in?

Somebody has been reading too much Ayn Rand.

For me, it's not that taxes get too high. If my taxes are 70%, but the middle class is getting taxed at 45% and the poor are getting taxed at 35%, I'm not going to complain one bit as long as the feds aren't building amusement parks for the poor and giving homeless people flying cars to sleep in.

The problem is if the rich are getting taxed at 90% and everyone else is paying nothing.

When the government stops treating me fairly, that's when I'll leave and/or "strike."

@mango. As a Banker you are going to get your ass handed to you bc of your salary. Anything after 90k is double taxed if the US has a tax treaty with the country you live in. That's what's so funny about people who bolted out of the US without doing their homework. They ended up paying a dime, trying to save a nickel.

^^^ Correct. I believe anyone making less than 80-90 K doesn't US taxes when factored in the foreign tax being paid, anything above is pro-rated and a lot lower.

US of A was very smart in creating a global taxation cause. Wonder what happens if we settle on the moon in the future. Solar System taxation.

American's capitalism was so successful last century in part due to abundant cheap immigrant labor and lots of natural resources and ever expanding west. Now it's a developed country, hard to keep that growth without drastic innovative technology improvements like Assembly line and Internet.

This is one of the best threads I've read in a while.

Just to shine some light on the Abu Dhabi/Dubai living situation.

1 It is becoming more westernized by the day, everywhere you go its all English all the time.

2 You can by any type of Alcohol there at your will and as much of it as you want. It is setup the same way as it is in Canada, you buy it at "special" liquor stores(LCBO), with prices actually being same to Canadian prices. ie Case of Heineken $45 dollars

3 The public affection tid bit is still a little grey area, I mean you cant go out to the beach and start nailing your girlfriend, just as the same you wouldnt do anywhere in North America.

4 There is a lot of grey areas in that country (UAE). It all comes down to who you know and what your connecitons are, as the locals call it wasta. Essentially, you can get away with anything if you know the right people.

I did a internship in Abu Dhabi this past summer for 4 months, and loved it, besides the summer being very hot it was a nice place to be. I would strongly recommend, looking into moving there even if it is just for a few years since compensation is very high, and standard of living is great.

This is fucking dumb. I'm sorry, but seriously. Doctors are NOT going to emigrate. Other countries pay doctors way, way less (70k in Germany for example, compared to 260 average here) and have higher tax rates.

Lawyers/bankers have little reason to leave for London, also. Pay might be a bit higher, but CoL makes up for it.

To the OP, I certainly see your point (Lord knows I have pondered the idea) but the fact remains, the US is still the greatest country on the face of the Earth and will be for the foreseeable future (assuming Obama isn't reelected). The fact of the matter is, changing your party affiliation and voting for a different person is far more convenient than gathering all of your belongings and picking up your family in moving to a foreign nation.

Liberty and freedom matter more to people than money does (for the most part), so most people would give up some cash to continue to be free. After all, as some of the previous posters mentioned, you are paying for certain services no matter what, its just a question of whether its pulled out of your paycheck before you see it or out of your tightly gripped fist. Now, obviously this is a sliding scale to everyone but the point is there isn't a single, proposed monetary/tax rate that will trigger mass exodus.

However, with all that said, mass exodus could occur but that won't be until the elected officials start (or continue) to infringe on people's religious freedoms to the point they feel that they have no choice but to leave.

The good news is, should a large amount of people leave the country, we could just move south to Mexico, wait a couple decades while diligently building an army and then re-invade the US and take back the country and resettle it like we did before. This will be possible because the US Department of Defense would have spent many years underfunded and presumably, the single largest factor that makes the US military THE greatest in the world, the volunteer force, would no longer be in place, or at the very least, be significantly diminished. Additionally, we can rest assured that if Obama or one of his lying, tax evading cronies have somehow managed to be/still be elected President, we wont have to worry about being held at bay due to the threat of the use of nuclear weapons because...well, it wouldn't be nice or fair to use them against someone just because they intended to harm citizens of his country and/or potentially threaten their way of life.

The point being, there is still hope. Likely there will be a dramatic shift when it comes to elections in the near future and it's probably safe to say that those candidates who possess liberal views will be fighting an up-hill battle.

Regards

@somedude - Actually MD pay is very high in Switzerland which is why German, French and Italian specialists are heading over. And the Swiss only pay about 5% more in taxes than we do. My old orthopaedic surgeon now works out of the sports clinic in Zurich and knows a few US Surgeons on their way. Pay for specialists in the Netherlands and Australia is actually 10% higher than here and they graduate med school owing 15-20 grand at most. I agree with you on London, that place should be butt-last on someone's emigration list bc of the taxes. Either way I find the concept of escaping your home country out of control... well except if Obama is re-elected.

I work in London but would consider moving to Switzerland. I would probably have to take a pay cut, but I don't mind. Also, the taxes are not very important. I just think Switzerland is a nicer place to raise a family.

That being said, get real. There are not many ways to get rich outside of finance. The brightest are too risk averse to move. High taxes may be a bitter pill to swallow but it's one the so-called brightest will swallow easily.

start off in NY, retire somewhere cheaper

OP you should start your own country.... seriously.

Buy an island, elect Sara Palin as president and fill it with "tea party" members. No taxes and a free gun for everyone. It will be just like the good ol days.... very wild west like. Hell, you can even call it Arayan Nation.

What about our foreign talent? I know the US is a great country but let's not forget this discussion is really about margins. At the margins, more people will leave. The marginal benefits for staying in the US are less and the marginal costs are growing because of higher future taxes, and because other countries are becoming nicer to live in.

If you're orginally from India, you probably would not want to live in Mumbai during the 1970's but today I'm sure it's much nicer. The same goes for China. Our country acts like a brain drain and takes the brightest minds from many other less developed or less capitilistic countries. As we become more socialist that effect will lessen.

So the bottom line is that we will lose a lot of foreign talent that we seem to be taking for granted and at least some domestic talent as well.

I agree with that logic as well.

I know the die hard liberals on this site or the people who pretend to be liberal just because everyone else is so conservative will bash me for this but I really don't want to live in a country where Barack Obama is elected president, twice.

I'm from the inner-city originally, heavy blue populations and low income housing (South Side Chicago), and it makes me sick to think that people that my parents grew up with that got into drugs, had multiple children in high school with different people, and have collected unemployment by lying to the government for the past 30 years are living off people like my Father who decided to go to college, get an MBA, and work 80 hour weeks to buy a house so my brother and I could have our own rooms.

Rewarding people like my father is what America is supposed to be all about, but now he's treated like a criminal by this administration because of what he earns. (And no he isn't a banker, he's in TeleComm) And his hard earned money is going to the real criminals none of which pay taxes.

I really don't want to raise my kids in this country if it keeps going the way that it is.

Did anybody take a history class? I mean I'm all for Gay Marriage and Abortion, but do you really want to live in a place like France, Spain, Italy, Poland, Sweden, Cuba, Russia, and on and on?