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interested as well....
you wouldn't happen to be looking in the Midwest at a GS/MS/JP?
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Few exit-ops. Entertaining clients, who are not your mates and could quite possibly be dicks. Knowing your product. Being the first port of call for a client who wants a document at random times. People skills. Get to be your own man; if you're good you can take your franchise anywhere. Alcoholic tendencies.
I think I know what I want to do now haha
Despite not wanting to agree with Oreos on anything...he gave an accurate description of the general lifestyle of someone in sales...should also point out that the role is very fast paced and attention to detail is critical. You dont wanna be that guy who fucks up a sell order with a buy one..as silly as it sounds given the volume its very possible to fuck up...
To get into sales you have to do an S&T internship...the recruiter will simply ask which rotations you wanna do and u can specify that u prefer sales..I went into my internship preferring to do trading but in the end realized that I am more suited for sales...so keep your mind open to new things.
Thanks for all the comments - really helpful! :)
Few more questions if you don't mind:
1) Pay compared to other FO roles (UK or USA - it doesn't matter) + Bonus? 2) Are there different types of Sales person? How do i get familiar with them? 3) Entertaining clients - over the phone? can you break down the day in terms of actual client interaction/who else you deal with etc. 4) What are the exit ops? Alcoholic tendencies...? Why? 5) Breakdown of all the skills required other then communication/interpersonal? Im sure you have to sure more then just that on your CV right? What sorts of things would make you stand out on your CV to get into Sales?
Thanks! :)
1) You're a sale person, your output is very measureable and as so your bonus is variable. Base at low level will be similar to other FO. 2) Often sales in split down in a water fall effect, the inital meeting will be with a senior (clients like that) and a group of less senior who will eventually manage the relationship and bring the senior back when the senior wants to get his name on the score card or something has gone wrong. 3) Unless you're really witty you're going to see them in person but expect to be on the phone a lot. Talk to clients brief them on markets, ask them about the recommendation you offered, do they like it? can you answer and questions? go back to trader/portfolio management, get answers, call client easy their worries...... 4) Exit-ops aren't many if you want to earn the around the same pay, think about it, the best it can get in a sales role is selling something worth a lot, e.g. bonds worth millions. Trading is an option but rarely happens and has to happen early. 4b) When you entertain clients, not on the phone, you're at a restaurant, event, bar, there's always booze. You get the clients drunk, the like you, they are more likely to have fun, people always like free drink, you're not drink too, then you're trying to get the client drunk, that's not cool. 5) Sales is sales, be good at selling stuff and have evidence of that with some finance related experience too to demonstrate product knowledge. And be cool, can't emphasis this enough; we don't do very many trades with a certain bank because the dude there is boring and a bit douchey (and their offer isn't that hot).
I want to be a trader, but this sounds like a perfect fit for me. You did lose me a bit on line 4b toward the end though....sounded almost like a no means no line.
So is the CFA title etc etc important for a sales role as well?
Edit: Had to put in a big thank you to Oreos for the detailed information. Really got me excited about sales. Silver-banana on the house.
what if you don't drink? how do u explain that if someone asks?
Pay is better than straight banking and you can move up quicker...pretty sure uk and us pay about the same..Theres obviously diff type of salespeople. It depends on your product...the entertaining clients part is you just being social after work..because ultimately, your clients have 10 diff brokers they can go to..why should they go to you? cuz you're sick to hang out with.
Good to know that my fraternity days don't have to die hard.....Beer me.
Very interesting! I'm becoming more and more sold! :)
Few more questions if you don't mind...
1) anyone have any sample sales resumes/know where I can find some so I can spin my resume? What sorts of things on your CV will make you stand out for this job? Wine tasting club? (I'm serious btw) modelling (not excel - Clavin Klein)?
2) Can I just clarify.... 7-8 you read the paper/prep. 8-12 you make calls to clients. 12-1 lunch/more calls. 1-4? 4 you leave - go to the clients - have a good time. So to sleep. Monday - Friday. This sounds like a dream job... any disadvantages (other then taking on too much alcohol! Lol) does it matter if your a vegetarian (but drink alcohol?)
3) whats the difference between sales and PWM then other then Sales your sitting near a trader?
4) types of sales people? I read there's fixed income. Institutional sales. Where can I find an exact breakdown including what each type does/sells?
5) what sorts of tech ques will they ask in tech/any interview? Ive only prepared for M&A so far... And all the ques in the vault guide look like they are for trading....P
6) if pays better then M&A why is investment banking so competitive?
Thanks!
1) Build a life not a CV. As mentioned before people are going to need to like you in sales, therefore have an interesting CV. A MD from GS once told me that he looks for 1 of 3 things on a CV; outstanding academics, sporting achievements and an interesting story he wants to hear. Structure of a CV should be kept to the ever so popular M&I standard. Modeling, no! Would only work if you're female. 2) Morning will start around 7/6:30, early morning meeting with traders/economist/sales, brief on the markets, yesterdays events. Then call clients, more meeting, lunches, then more calls, meetings, research, get documents, until around 7pm then dinner if arranged. But overall it's much more flexible than other areas. 3) Faster paced than PWM (knowledge of PWM is limited, never looked into it, only have friends in the area). 4) Sales from my experience is split by product and client type (e.g. UK hedge funds IG loans), will depend on the size of the firm as to how specialized you become. 5) Sales interviews will mostly be fit, on average. 6) It only pays better if your good, it's easier to hide as an average performer in IBD. Exit-ops of banking are wider, you can do pretty much anything inside of finance with it, sale not so much, so more demand for the initial experience of banking.
For me, the greatest disadvantage working in sales is the feeling that you aren't using any analytical skills at all and at the end of the day, you are little more than a glorified used car salesman. Unless you are structuring extremely exotic instruments to financial sponsors, most of the products you pitch are extremely basic and your target audience are unsophisticated CEOs and CFOs. Essentially, the job is about taking a financial concept and explaining it in very basic terms so a CFO will understand it. Apart from that, there is writing market commentary to clients (basically summarizing top Bloomberg articles) and mining client portfolios for untapped potential, an extremely monotonous process.
I don't think that's the case... It's difficult to generalize about bonuses, but I'm under the impression that average bankers get paid more. I also don't think IBD is harder than S&T to break into. Do they not hire more analysts?
They hire significantly less into S&T. And your bonus is based of your individual pnl and commission so by default if you're good you get paid better than in bankding. Also keep in mind that you're working 40 hours less a week.
Wine tasting club? I should just wash my mouth out with buckshot now.....
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For interning in a sales role are the BB's the only option? or do boutiques offer similar services? IE is it the same as reaching out to boutiques to get IB experience?
One of these days I will post a day in the life of a salestrader.
When I interned in IBD, I didn't think twice to choose GS/MS over lower-tier BBs. But does it matter which firm you work at if you're a sales analyst? Are there any particular banks that have reputable S&T teams or significant presence on the markets side in the US/UK? I'm interested in equities.
dont get be wrong...you still work close to 12 hour days and you have to be in around 6-7...so ur schedule is off with everyone else who isnt doing market hours
Still 12 hours is nothing compared to what I went through this summer. Also equity S&T people typically leave the office before 8PM. Does that mean companies won't pay for an overtime meal and a town car?
lol..ppl in equites leave at 4:30
No need for a town car or paid dinners
Salestraders leave to get drinks with clients and put that shit on the amex
oh my gawd! wish i knew that before my senior year, but it's still not too late.
We put eating challenges on amex = )
So does this mean that my MVP Beer Olympics 2009 award is a legitimate listing on my resume?
I put that on my resume and landed an offer because of it (srs)
(notsrs)
"Apart from that, there is writing market commentary to clients (basically summarizing top Bloomberg articles) and mining client portfolios for untapped potential, an extremely monotonous process."
Lol that is shitty coverage. You are not adding any value there so of course it feels like a used car salesman.
For those that want something "intellectually stimulating" just leave the business and go try to cure cancer or something like that.
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All these internships are in S&T.......can you please point me to these?
AP did you just recite some textbook definition of sales to me. Shut up and go stand in the corner.
WTF is a "relationship manager" gahaha I seriously think you made that one up.
How about adding color on what other institutional accounts are doing? What type of flow is going on... is it pure retail, vanilla institutions, hedge funds. You basically just showed me that you know zero about covering accounts. What about if the fund wants to buy 250 but the sales guy says I can probably do 500 etc. Seriously you have no idea what you are talking about and just regurgitating the bullshit you read on this site.
Your "personal experience" of being a shadow?
? aren't you a broker? why are you so aggressively assertive about sales?
There are relationship managers in PB...they coordinate between main office and satellite offices to make sure everyone is on the same page, as well as establishing lending terms with existing clients.
Looking forward to trade4size's post on a salesperson's lifestyle :)
Waiting for the day in the life T4S ;)
me 3, t4s!!
mean.....so mean
Definitely looking forward to that post Trade4Size
Is there a ranking/league table for investment banks for Sales & Trading? If yes, where?
Yes, where?!
The bank that ultimately employs you and pays your salary, is No. 1. This does not have to be untruthful. There are many ways to be No. 1.
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If you're recruiting for sales from business school:
Also, where do you expect most of the hiring to be next year? New York, London, HK?
Thanks!
I'm starting in sales come June and there's some serious lack of knowledge on this forum about the role... The saying goes the best salesman would make great traders vice versa. Though salespeople need to be sociable and interesting people, the best salespeople i've worked for know how to add value to their buysde accts.. They do this via market color ie "a big fast money acct put the 5s 10s flattener on in size and I think he could be coming back for more" etc... Md on my desk in rates was extremely smart and had a great understanding of roll, basis, wi relationships etc... In my view the day of the dumb and drunk broker with no value adding trade ideas will be outdone by someone that can help the pm generate alpha.
Absolutely.
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