Hi,
So recently, I've gotten really into trading and I find it to be a lot more exciting than I had previously thought. I have a couple of questions though:
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I'm interested in trading commodities (particularly soft commodities, but energy would be fun too) or get into pharmaceutical/biotech type of stocks. The thing is, while I'm decent with numbers and got As in normal math classes, I'm not good enough at math to be a quant/major in math. I was wondering if this would make it impossible for me to become a trader, or is it still possible even without a math/engineering background?
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I'm from a non-target. Is that going to hurt a lot as well? If I don't get in right away, what would be the best route for me? I don't mind working at a boutique even, but I just want to break in somehow.
thanks a lot!
I know folks at BP's energy trading group (in the US it's split between Chicago and Houston). A lot of them aren't quant/math majors. When I interviewed there, it defintely wasn't math heavy like you would find from, say, Jane Street.
Being from a non-target will hurt, but if you network early and network hard you can make up for it.
There are a lot of shops that specialize in commodities. Check out Louis Dreyfus, Trafigura, Vitol, Glencore, Phibro, Noble, the oil majors..
If you focus on something other than energy, that might boost your chances since other areas are somewhat less competitive (perhaps less quant, not sure on that one). For instance you probably have a better shot at trading metals at Trafigura than energy.
i know for a fact none of the shops listed here are easy to get a job at and traf makes all people take an IQ test... nothing easy about that
I'm actually more interested in soft commodities vs energy. I was just saying that in case soft comms (i.e. sugar, wheat, cocoa, other ag, etc.) aren't available, energy would be pretty cool as well. Do you think a masters in accounting would help at all in terms of helping me understand balance sheets and all? And of course, the less quant the better given my lack of math/engineering background...
I don't see why there's an obssessive need to master accounting principles in terms of how trading relates to balance sheets. I've seen a commodities desk at the BB where I am where some traders don't even have remotely relevant schooling in the breadth you mention - as a matter of fact, there're some who transited to trading roles after being a desk assistant.
Do I necessarily think there's anything specific that might help you succeed in trading? In a nutshell, no.
I don't think a master in accounting would be particularly helpful. Plenty of people can read a balance sheet okay without being a CPA. A place might like Archer Daniels Midland might have something up your alley. Besides a lot of traders start working on the physicals side before trading.
Wilmot might be a good forum to get more info about commodity trading. The focus is on quant stuff but like AlphaGeneration said, there are non-quant jobs in the field.
Alright cool. Any ideas about books/sites I should check out? I read WSJ and NYT everyday (I'm still working on a subscription but I read the free articles and watch Mad Money, etc.) but I feel like that's not enough because I keep getting slaughtered in my virtual stock game and have no idea what to do. So any recommendations about where to get started?
I'd recommend getting your hands on The Gartman Letter. He writes about Forex, Commodities, Energy, and Equity Markets. He doesn't go to much into "softs" (occasionally he'll say the softs are weak). However, he covers energy, gold, and grains rather extensively. I'm not a trader (I'm a junior at a non-target) but I've met traders who read it so its legit.
You might also want to check out seekingalpha.com if you haven't already. Its a good place for info on markets and you might find something on softs.
As for the other guys talking about Trafigura, is it true that it might be easier coming from a non-target. Do they even recruit undergrads?
gartman is good and i read daily. traf does hire a few and mostly ivy
I'm not saying they're easy to get into, they just have less of a focus on being from a target than the BBs.
http://graduates.trafigura.com/
Where you located? Why do not just start calling some of those shops?
Cargill would be a good spot too.
Your best bet is to get into risk or something at one of those places and then work your way to trading. This is very common in commodities.
For Forex, is a math degree/great quant skills virtually a requirement?
bump
You might be a good fit at a lot of Chicago prop shops. Rosenthal Global Securities comes to mind (RCGDirect.com).
RGS isn't incredibly picky about the initial hiring decision, but they want to see that you're earning money for them quickly.
I'm also very interested in other member's insight.
I'm an engineer with oil&gas experience/academics who is also trying to break into energy trading.
I have been networking like a madman but it seems that formal programs have already been filled or it's hard to get your resume to the right people within energy firms.
most formal programs are filled by colleges and b schools so if your not in that bucket you have to get lucky... knowing someone would be best bet.... not many people care about your past background... think that is where most people get it wrong.... i know a girl now at a BB trading energy who was a prop manager at an apartment complex... another was a waiter... another was an investment banker.... so keep networking and hope you get lucky
Are there any good books to read to better understand commodity trading?
Already subscribed to him. I was thinking more of a book that may help outline the fundamentals?
Dave Rosenberg. I love the guy haha. Dennis actually mentions him sometimes. Dave is a big time bear, but he makes compelling arguments and really breaks down the economy very well.
https://ems.gluskinsheff.net/index.ncl.html
I think its free. I signed up thinking it was a trial but it hasn't stopped coming lol.
Yeah Breakfast with Dave is pretty good, I read it along with TGL every morning. Nothing like waking up to two bears with your cup of coffee.
haha samesies... though Dave is much smarter than Dennis... I've always wanted to get my hands on Jim Grant's Interest Rate Observer but I don't have the cash to buy it for a year... maybe if I ever wind up on a trading desk I can get the bank to pay for it... even though he is all about inflation right now and Dave is for deflation but still it'd be nice to hear both sides of the inflation/deflation argument (since I'm a fucking econ nerd as I'm sure you are judging by your name lol)
"Where you located? Why do not just start calling some of those shops?
Cargill would be a good spot too.
Your best bet is to get into risk or something at one of those places and then work your way to trading. This is very common in commodities."
Kinda off topic but what different places in America is Cargill commodity trading located? I haven't been able to find out on the Cargill website. It seems like a great place for soft commodity and energy trading.
edit
I have found mark fisher, one of the largest oil traders, and once a large silver trader to be of great insight. His book is fantastic and I have learned quite a bit from it.
I Think Cargill's main office is in minnepolis
I hear trading is incredibly meritocratic. If that's true, it leads me to believe they might be willing to hire more people and let them try it out (this assumption is based on what I see in most other meritocratic jobs). It also leads me to think that trading might have relatively high turnover. Are these statements true?
In some ways, but it still isn't easy to get a job at a decent shop and most recruit exclusively at top targets or local regional schools (think UIUC for Chicago props and maybe Baruch for some NYC shops).
What about less prestigious shops?
Is there anyway to get the Gartman Letter for free?
if you work at a bank or trading desk... or if you know someone else who gets it... they can send it to you... my dad sends it to me (he gets it 'free' through his work) but that's going to change when he leaves his job... (ahh no more TGL I might have to buy a subscription!!)
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