IBD (Post-MBA) Associate Lifestyle Anno 2016
I understand this question has been raised many times, but there are also a lot of BS answers on this forum and times are changing a little, so I am hoping to gain valuable insights on this.
I recently read the Quarter Midlife Crisis topic and the (rather depressing) replies. Obviously some of it may be exaggerated, but with quite a lot of consistent replies, one starts to wonder ...
Is a career banker (read: post-MBA) really a path that will most likely lead to unhappiness and a serious unhealthy lifestyle? Many banks are promoting a better work/life balance anno 2016 - is that simply all a lie or marketing trick? Or is a lot of this stuff overblown?
I am an incoming student at an M7 program with a non-traditional background. I always did transactional work and worked moderately intense hours (on average 60 - 70h a week). I consider pursuing IBD as a full-time career path post MBA, I absolutely love transactional work but not to the extent that I will never have ANY time for anything else.
I am not disillusioned that I will become a multi millionaire in my early '30s, but banking (and MC, and admittedly they seem happier) is one of the few (high-paying) career paths that is viable for me and does not require a pre-MBA experience in the same field.
Any - serious - answers are really appreciated.
My guess is you'll get a wide range of responses because it's different at every bank. At my old bank, the associates are working like 50 hour weeks right now with zero deal flow. At some banks, the VPs will still log 70+ hour weeks.
Really dependent on the bank / group. 6-18 months post graduation will probably be most intense from a post-MBA standpoint (you have no idea what you are doing, you don't have any non-analysts working under you, you are given the shittiest assignments, etc.). After 18 months, things get better as you become more efficient and move up the ladder a bit.
You're still in client service, so the work is unpredictable, but you'll generally have time to actually enjoy life.
FWIW - I am 5 years post-MBA, and I would imagine there are more people still in IB than MC - most MCs have been washed out. The "better work-life" line they use is essentially a lie.
Great post- I'd love to hear more about which places are less intense. I'm in the same situation as the OP (non-traditional background attending M7 this fall). I've heard capital markets offer a slightly better lifestyle but obviously don't know for sure.
Personal opinion - but I would not go directly into a capital markets role after b-school. Yes, the hours tend to be better but you sacrifice a more well-rounded experience (as a coverage banker you get exposure to a wide array of M&A, debt, IPOs/FOs, private placements, etc.). Plus, more common to move into capital markets after a few years vs. going the other way.
Thanks a lot. I always thought the high turnover in MC was because only a select few make it up to the next level, and more than 50% already leaves within the first two years. In banking - anecdotally speaking - there is less of a pyramid until you reach the SVP / ED level.
I don't find it surprising that more folks continue to stay in IB - but I would guess that's largely due to poor exit ops after IB post-MBA when compared to MC. This is just my guess - I have experience in neither field. Also, I can't imagine MC lifestyle being worse than IB. Thoughts?
Some of my friends who have gone to MBB post-mba work just as much as post-mba IB associates.
I think the "lack of exit-opps" from a post-mba associate position in IB is overblown as well. They may not get the classic PE/HF exit-opps, but I've talked to members of my finance club at the MBA program I am matriculating to and they said that plenty of alumni have exited into corp strat/dev roles.
As many other people pointed out, it depends on your bank, but mostly your group. For example, there are some groups in my MM where associates work 80 hours a week, while in my group, they would closer to 50. What I would take away from this thread, though, is that IB overall requires many hours whether you're an analyst or an MD. Good luck.
Not sure where these guys are working 50 hours a week, but I've NEVER heard of or seen Associates work fewer than 65 hours per week - over three years at my firm (across all groups) and from friends' anecdotes of other shops. Mind you, I think 65 hours is about the best week possible - most are in the office for a grueling 85-90+ per week.
Just think about it - unless you have an incredible Analyst beneath you, which is unlikely, because the best ones have jobs and check out, you are 100% responsible and accountable for everything. Not only do you have to wait for the Analyst to finish the work, the burden is then on you to make sure it's correct, and when push comes to shove, you're splitting work with the Analyst so you're working identical hours to him/her.
There has been a recent push to over-hire to promote a better work/life balance, and at the first sign of market turmoil (see the first 2.5 months of this year), the layoffs happen and people get the "soft" layoff through a bad bonus. IBs went on a hiring frenzy throughout 2015 due to suicides and underlying health-related deaths (yes, that's a real, factual statement, and it's very sad) that will have to taper back throughout 2016 and 2017...hard to paint a picture of Associate life moving in a positive direction over the next 24 months, but hey, could be wrong.
The Quarter-Life Crisis thread is indeed exaggerated, but to your point, if enough people are saying the same thing.........
Not saying you shouldn't do it, but the four years until you're a second year VP are going to suck. Then it's a cushy gig until you have a revenue target!
50 hours a week? What kind of bank has associates working 50 hours a week? Those are most likely places you don't want to be at because they are not winning mandates or doing any real work. Which means you won't get your bonus.
If you are at a good group at a good bank, expect to work 70-100 hours as an Associate during the early part of your career. It should get better over time as you get better at your job, etc, etc. But as a former analyst at a bank, I saw firsthand the lifestyle of associates and it was NOT pretty. The only thing that got them through it was the hope of being promoted to VP.
Hours per week look different when you split them out. 65 hours a week sounds like absolutely nothing but in reality it is getting in at 9 and leaving at 9.30 Monday to Thursday, finishing at 6 on a Friday and coming in for another 6 hours on the Sat. That is still a chunky work week and would not be amazed to see people working less if they have good analysts working under them and they are efficient.
Prob with banking is deal flow leads to hours, if you are working 50-60 hours a week, chances are deal flow is poor and working on two deals a year is not very fulfilling....especially if one falls over near the end.
If you are working on multiple deals at a time your hours are gonna go up!
Finishing at 6 on a Friday? I want to come work for you!
Your first year will be no different than an analyst, maybe even worse depending on how directly related your transactional experience is and how quickly you pick up on things. By most peoples standards my life is shit, on average about 60 a week with the peaks at close to 100. My group has been very busy this year and I work at a large MM bank (HL/HW/Lazard MM type place). I am still able to take at least a couple decent vacations a year and regularly grab dinner/drinks with the gf and friends. The problem that most people can't deal with is the unpredictability of it all because that will never stop. Case in point, just had an MD cancel his vacation and the VP is missing his sons birthday because a deal accelerated. Unless you are in some crap bank with shit deal flow, that will likely always be a reality. From what my buyside friends tell me there is still some of that, but they get to dictate the terms more often whereas in banking you are always at the behest of your client. Personally I am trying to go buyside now, but I think I may have waited too late in my career. I've talked about associate lifestyle in several other threads if you want more insight.
Could you please link to those threads? Interested in what you have to say.
I too, am attending Bschool and deciding between IB and Consulting. Did you go to Bschool or are you a direct promote?
Also, asked another way, if i offered you about 50k-75k comp a year, and in return you had vast majority of your weekends fee and predictability in schedule, would you take it?
This has quite a few other good responses as well. http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/lifestyle-of-an-analyst-vs-associ…
Direct promote.
No way in hell because I can find cushy corporate gigs that pay double that. I would go stir crazy with a 40 hr/week job.
50k-75k really is nothing once you have a few years of experience. I was in business development working 40 hrs a week because we had nothing going on. I made around 105k but IBD is still appealing comparatively. I am in the process of doing my MBA to Associate route.
At a top group in mid tier BB with coverage list based staffing so we get allocated accounts versus getting work based on capacity. Hours vary from 50 hours a week when none or only one of my accounts are doing anything to 85+ when multiple clients are active at once or live deal.
Depends on the group. There is a VP on my floor that works 80+. It's really all over the place depending on group, deal flow, and how much you trust others not to screw anything up--a system of trust really lightens the load for everyone.
Can anyone with the experience comment on what vacations are like as an Associate? What is the norm? Are a couple of 3 day weekends a year doable? What about a 1 or 2 week type of vacation, is that totally impossible? Do things get better on that front after the first 6-12 months post-MBA, when you begin to actually have an idea what you are doing?
If anyone can give estimates of the average # days an A0, A1, A2 etc actually takes off per year, would be most grateful!
I assume it depends on the bank and the group but I took two weeks not including Christmas last year, and this year I'll probably take three-four weeks including Christmas.
I also took like five three-day weekends last year just due to weddings / bachelor parties. This year I'll probably take like three three-day weekends.
More generally, I'd say that A0 can't realistically take any time off outside of Christmas (but during Christmas time you can pretty easily take a week). After that, you should be able to take 3-4 weeks each year including A1, but I'd guess most people don't feel "comfortable" doing it. Again, this is just based on my bank though.
This sounds a bit more laidback than most - what bank/city are you at?
3-4 weeks off as an A1 sounds really aggressive... At a lot of the banks, you won't even see VPs or MDs take that much time off. I think realistically, if your group is busy and there's a lot of work, as an A0, you'll take a few days or a week around Christmas. Then generally take a week off with a handful of long weekends throughout the year for more experienced associates. I could see taking two weeks off and then a handful of long weekends.
How many of the aforementioned vacations were laptop vacations though?
Almost all vacations are laptop vacations. You'll have to respond to emails and step in when necessary. Banks don't expect their associates (or anyone really) to go completely off the grid. The only exception is probably the honeymoon. I work in PE and am always on my laptop during vacation, but I didn't get a single email during my honeymoon (and wasn't expected to answer any).
Right, I'm in the same boat - just want to make sure people reading this aren't getting the impression that you're free when you're on vacation. You will always need to be responsive, available and will be expected to contribute - albeit in a more measured fashion. Doesn't matter where in the world you are BTW - whenever I booked a vacation in banking, the first response would always - semi-jokingly but also seriously - be to make sure I called IT to get the international data plan turned on.
actually BBs all have required vacation policies that force you to be unplugged during that time. Obviously there are exceptions but a lot of ppl just said they're going somewhere with spotty service.
Took four weeks of vacation annually as first and second year associate including Christmas. Approx 2 weeks of that time was uninterrupted with just email checking to stay on top of things, one week would be minor remoting in (helping analyst, calls etc), and one week was logging in every morning to do some work.
Largely depends on the bank, group and the MDs. Middle market banks at times offer a better work/life balance but, the trade off is unpredictable hours and pay. I had better hours in ECM but, it wasn't as well rounded an experience as Corp Fin / M&A. You just get better exposure in Corp Fin. To the post MBA Associates with no experience, good luck. It will take time to get up to speed and have the VPs, MDs and other Associates respect you.
Honestly, if you're after a good work/life balance, look at lower middle market or boutique firms or just stay away from IB and MC.
One thing to keep in mind, if you become a post-mba banker you really limit your options. You can ride the gravy train to VP, but if you don't have what it takes to bring in deals, you're stuck. You can't progress (and will likely be let go in the first round of lay offs) and you're too expensive to go do pretty much anything else, and frankly you're lifestyle has probably locked you into that level of income too. Additionally, nobody on the buyside wants anything to do with someone who has done a few years of post MBA banking.
you say that as if it doesn't happen in the buyside. It's incredibly hard to make VP in PE, and to make partner all the stars have to align. Layoffs happens at hedgefunds as soon as the team doesn't perform well. Also, not everyone wants to go to the buyside
Can't really speak for PE, but at Hedge fund it's pretty easy to just go work at another hedge fund. What's the option in IB? go work at a boutique? Great, you can do that for another year while you bring in zero deals and get fired again.
Epic troll.
LOL summer associate got butt hurt? You'll soon learn.
Really interesting thread. Would you fellow monkeys say that long-term, IBD is a more secure career path than PE?
I think it's rather condescending and inaccurate to say one field has a lower bar from an intellectual horsepower standpoint, especially considering that there are over 3500 private equity firms in the world and far fewer investment banks. Unpredictability and need to gun for deals remains present for MDs in banking. Actually on the topic of cruise control, there have been several articles discussing why PE titans are not retiring even at the age of ~70. I.E. Schwarzman's ownership of Blackstone shields him from direct personal losses incurred by its funds. Unless a principal is putting up their own money to be managed by the funds, the corporation is actually taking risks in lieu of its principals, while the principals enjoy the economics of the corporation. That sounds more like cruise control. I understand this isn't the norm. There's certainly some degree of cruise control in both industries as you become an expert in your field and have an established list of clients, but it's important to recognize that full on cruise control is neither the norm nor the expectation for either field at senior levels. Unpredictability and need for adaptation arise in both industries.
These type of posts that attempt to paint one field as better, more intellectual, or more intense are usually the result of group think. Both industries are so diverse that you can't really paint either with broad strokes.
To get back on topic and respond to the OP, I'm not a huge believer in the better work/life balance marketing that some banks are employing. Some banks have relatively strict policies enforcing them, but the reality is that people aren't working insane hours because of the culture or because someone is forcing them. It's because there's a lot of work to do. At least at our group, people take notice if you're constantly brushing off work and will stop assigning you to high profile deals.
I can only speak to the work/life at my group, but associates coming from an M7 have similar lifestyles to analysts, which makes sense since they are still learning how to complete the analysts tasks. However, I think after you reach VP after a couple of years, you effectively turn the corner and have much better control over your schedule and more plentiful free time (relatively, of course).
Regarding your concerns about unhappiness and unhealthiness. I think both are more in your control at the associate level. If you're interested in the work, can manage your time well, and work efficiently, it shouldn't be too bad. We have much less burn out for people coming in at the associate level, since life is markedly better at the VP level and they only have three years to get through as opposed to 5-6 for analysts. Lack of sleep undoubtedly is not healthy, but we have even people at the analyst level who regularly go to the gym and come back. Make sure you consciously choose to eat healthily as well, because the dinner allowance is absolutely deadly.
Edit: On vacation, associates at our group take 2 to 3 weeks a year.
Based on what I am reading here I have to say I am fairly happy with how things have turned out at my BB / group. I was able to take 3 weeks of vacation all except one fully disconnected (trips are usually mountaineering related) during my first year as an analyst. I usually let my team know which days I'll have access to a computer in case they need to reach me and even then usually don't ever get an email.
Edit: I will say that when I am not on vacation our group works pretty hard but they do seem to protect us when we decide to get away.
Regarding vacation. My first year was only long weekends and a week off around Christmas. Once I was more entrenched I'll take off a week some time during the year and Christmas plus long weekends. Christmas and long weekends are always laptop holidays. Sometimes I'll end up working a full day, sometimes I'll just answer emails from my phone. The trick I like to pull is make the non-Christmas week in a 3rd world country somewhere with shit for wifi. Then you're only expected to play traffic director with your phone at most.
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