I just found out that I did not make it. I interned with GS IBD. Now what do I do? Will other BBs take a look at me? What would their concerns be? How about PE ?.
I actually have a pretty good CV with a year's boutique consulting experience before and am pretty shocked at the moment considering the kind of effort that went into my internship.
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Did they tell you why you did not get an offer?
What do you think they dinged you on? Anything you would have done differently in retrospect?
GS IBD looks good, you can apply FT to MS, JPM, CS, UBS, ML, DB, BOA, LB, BS...and so on.
But any specific reasoning why they didn't give an offer?
Everyone will ask you whether you got an offer. It will be your choice as to whether or not to lie about it (Personally, I would advise you strongly against it, but I'm neither your conscience nor your risk tolerance advisor).
You will have to have a convincing answer for why you did not receive an offer, that you can deliver with at least a modicum of conviction. People will have to judge how damning the lack of an offer is to their perception of you.
Make no mistake, it's a setback. A potentially large one. In some ways, it's worse than not having an internship at all for this summer. But you can't change it, so you need to figure out what to do from here. The internship itself will increase the number of banks willing to look at you and interview you. It will reduce the percentage of them that will be willing to give you an offer.
People overcome this issue regularly. But it will likely be the #1 obstacle you'll face in gaining full time employment with an investment bank. You should approach the coming season with that in mind.
You can prolly make up some BS that you don't think you "fit in" with the culture...and it's actually probably half-true, given that you claim you tried very hard.
Ghengis, if it is in fact such an onerous impediment, why couldn't he just not list it on his CV?
Because the danger is greater that way. Say he gets the job. Now he has to fill out the full HR application and background check form. If he doesn't list it there, he has a very good chance of getting caught and having his job go away.
He lists it and a sharp HR person asks why it's not on his resume, they find out he left it off because he didn't get an offer and once again, he loses the job.
Best thing to do is to list it, get the interviews galore (and the internship should get him a look almost everywhere) and then convince people that he got a raw deal at Goldman. Many people won't get over the reservation (You are taking your gut feel from a 45 minute interview over the judgment of people who had two months to judge him). But likely somebody will if he plays his cards right.
He should just be prepared that while other people get questions on DCFs and why they want to be bankers, he's going to spend a disproportionate amount of time talking about why he's not getting the chance to come back after his summer.
Wholly incorrect information / conclusion.
Most companies only require details of full time work experience, education and residence. They specifically ask you to clarify gaps in work experience.
However, when you are in school your full time job is being a student. Listing/not listing part time work experience is wholly optional and you will NOT lose your job over not listing an internship. Please dont misguide people. You absolutely dont need to list how you nannied some kids in the neighborhood when you were in middle school or how you waited at a fast food joint in high school. Work / educational history is required to keep a steady track of what you were doing. If you were in school fulltime - good enough. No one will throw you out for the spanish certificate course you dindnt mention.
That said, if you leave the intership section blank they are bound to ask you what you did. And at that point you will HAVE to tell them the truth and it will come across as much worse. So a better bet would be to just list the internship.
Here's' what I would do. List it on your resume. I am sure that you will get lots of interview calls (especially with GS on the resume). No one will start off with why you are not going to Goldman. But they will get to it.
So try to wow them till they get to it. And when they do, tell them what a wonderful experience it was and how it has convinced you that i-banking is what you want to do. If they ask you about goldman, politely tell them that you in the middle of the interviewing process with goldman currently (as you MUST have by then reapplied to goldman , come on!).
Be rest assured, the guys on the other side are also smart and they will not probe further. Also if they like you by this point then they will not toss you out just like that. So relax and take it easy. Be confident in the interviews. Good people sometimes fall through the cracks. When I interview someone (I have only spoken with some lateral hires) I try to get a better idea about the person minus all prejudice. That part is taken care of in the resume screening process - whether for the better or for the worse. And a goldman internship is as good as it gets!
A GS IBD internship is still a solid (one of the best) resume experience, lower tier Banks will love that (ie banks on the same pay scale as Goldman but considered worse, such as ML or BOA)
I think what makes this situation tough is that I don't think banks will have a problem with calling each other and saying "hey did so-and-so get an offer? If not, why not?" Your priority at this point should be to find out why you didn't get a FT offer and then try and address that in your interview. You definitely should not lie about getting a FT offer b/c I feel that would easily be found out. You can try a gamble of "well I was extremely sick for a week, so I didn't get a FT offer"; if they find the real reason out, you can always fall back on "well I was also sick, that's why I thought I didn't get it so I wasn't lying." Anyway your top priority would be to call anyone you know that you worked with and find out why you didn't get an offer.
If BB IB is anything like M/B/B, then you should just assume that they all talk. They'll not only know whether someone got an offer, they'll likely know specifically why you didn't get one.
Given the circumstances, I have to agree with Boozer on this one. Your best bet is to own up to the fact that you didn't receive an offer, and see if you can spin the story as some sort of positive learning experience (which, it just might be, if you end up getting a comparable offer) - if nothing else, you've already got a pretty solid story for a b-school essay...
i have two friends that summered at BBs didn't get offers and ended up at MMs, which is not the end of the world
lie to some, be honest to others. gamble on a few by lying, but id tell the truth to most of them.
Lying on my CV is not really an option I am considering. Wouldn't want any unnecessary complications later and it is not something I am willing to do for the sake of a job.
As to why I did not get the offer, I really have no specific reason nor was given any, except for overall evaluation or some such thing. I know for a fact that at least 5/9 of my evaluators recommended me for an offer (They personally told me so). It is a pretty crushing blow in as much I was pretty keen on it and spent 100+ hours every single week in my total of 10 weeks. If I were to apply to other BBs when would be the ideal time to do so? And yes I still have to worry about how to handle the "Why no offer" question.
I did more - though not at GS - and didn't get an offer either. And it came at a time when the classes had already been filled for the next year.
Start calling banks immediately. Network as much as possible. You need to have a reasonable story as to why you didn't get it. Key is to learn to be able to deal with the blow psychologically. You are your worst enemy. If you come across crestfallen and completely crushed as I did at first, you have no chance.
Bottom line: you still can make it if you play your cards right, as Khan aptly put it. I did.
P.S. This is assuming you didn't get the offer for some fundamental reason.
I would say apply ASAP to other banks, before on-campus recruiting starts. I know BBs are very flexible about recruiting when it comes to other bank's interns. I am not surprised you weren't given the exact reason, but you gotta call someone, anyone that you know that you worked with and ask them. They may try and blow you off with "well I don't know, it's a group decision" or "It was very competitive this year" but explain to them that you really need to know because you want to continue in i-banking but you need to know what to improve on to have a successful career. Maybe 1 or 2 people will still continue to stonewall but you will eventually find out what it is. Once you found out, then you can spin it appropriately. But seriously you need to find out because if it is something like "We suspect he was stealing from the firm but have no evidence" then it doesn't matter how you spin it, you are fucked.
According to my friends who work at GS, the internship--->FT offer rate is around 50%.
This is significantly lower than the percentages which occur at other banks which generally range in the 70-90% territory depending on bank.
Not getting an FT offer from GS isn't as bad as not getting an offer from JPMorgan, DB, ML, CS, etc. bc it's a much more common occurrence since Goldman deliberately weeds out more people this way.
Follow the advice of everyone else, but worst-case you'll still end up at a BB is my guess unless you screwed up terribly and that's why you didn't get the FT offer.
It may be around 50% in Sales and Trading at GS. However, the number in IBD is definitely comparable to other banks.
A friend of mine interned at GS and was told to be on the waitlist. Even though he interviewed with a lot of banks, his only offers were Wachovia IBD and another bank Capital Markets.
towards the last week of September?
It sux. Need to have a positive from everyone you listed as references.
50% FT Offer Rate?
That freaking blows
Ok. The moral choiice is up to you, but it has happened in the past that people who didn't get a full time offer where they interned went to rival banks, said that they got offered, and clinched a full time job. You won't be lying on your cv as you will simply say you were at gs over the summer. I have not had the experience of HR departments comparing notes on stuff like this. Also, even if they for whatever reason compare notes, anyone outside GS will find it very hard to believe that gs would admit to beign turned down - so use this to your advantage.
Like is aid, whether it's morally the righjt thing to do is another question and entirely up to you.
Also, the point about hedging your bets is very valid - lie to some, be honest with others. And btw, don't think that just because you didn't get into gs, you automatically are mm material.
Good luck.
"Living the dream 24/7 on http://theallnighter.blogspot.com"
as others have said, having GS on your resume will open many doors, but you WILL be asked if you got an offer and most will be somewhat weary after telling them that you did not. However, most also realize that GS is ultra competitive and it is widely known that GS takes smaller % of their SA class for FT.
If you were smart enough to get a GS SA offer, you will be fine in the long run.
This may be obvious, but a note of caution: when replying to the question about not getting an offer you should not negatively attack GS (or any company that you had a negative experience with). Saying things like “the people at GS were all unprofessional†(merely an example) will make it seem as you do not take responsibilities for your own actions and will give an overall impression that you are disloyal.
can always pull the 'dont know yet' card. i had friends who interned at GS last summer and got jerked around until mid-October (interviewed her again, etc.) and she didn't know if she got an offer yet. She just said that, and ultimately did get one but turned it down.
But honestly, I was told by an MD (I didn't get an offer last summer either), as long as you know what you want to do and why you'd be good at it, and tell a convincing story, the GS lack of offer will not look terrible. Try to get some good references from ppl who worked with you (I had a Head of US Sales and an MD who allowed me to list them as a reference), so if the time comes up, you can assuage any sort of doubts in your ability.
GS doesn't make full time offers/communicate hiring decisions until the end of August for IBD. Also, the offer rate is comparable to other banks.
randomguy, did they officially tell you you didn't get an offer? Is your FT start date 2008 or are you a lateral?
I was off cycle and hence the decision was communicated earlier. My FT start date is 2008. Let me not bore you now with the gory details of my full profile.
This forum is pretty ok btw. Good to see that there are people out here you can reach out to.
It's not the end of the world... I know people that didn't get offers at BB's and still went to work full time at BB's.
As mentioned, you NEED to know exactly why you didn't get the offer
what is a lateral?
moving from one firm to the other.
perpendickular would be moving to a better position obviously. (or worse for that matter)
ask the same question in multiple threads, it's a sure-fire bet that you'll succeed
at some banks which have accelerated recruitments. although you might need to be invited to apply..but if you applied before and got some interviews, you should get them again.
And don't worry about the no offers. Just put your experience on your resume and deal with the question later.
You will probably end up at a top 20 bank or midmarket auditting firm likes...no offer in IBD in a top 10 bank means you are screwed, all people I know couldn't get in IBD anymore... those guys must really hate you to screw your career... try consultancy for 2years, take 2yrs for a MBA and return to IBD at a decent top 5 bank and save yourself the humilation because every interviewer will reject you, no answer is good enough....
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that for every case. I know a couple who got turned down at GS who went to MS and CS. It's really not the end of the world.
Guy I know who got turned down at GS for the summer went to MS and got offers from McKinsey and Bain. Then again, he had like a 3.9+ in engineering at an Ivy...
But there are definately exceptions and cases of ppl ending up at a good bank after a bad internship. This is expecially true if you interened at a rough group at GS, like TMT or FIG. Great groups but lots of reasons why you wouldn't feel like its the right fit for you.
A bigger question is why didn't they give you the offer? What kind of feedback did you get?
agreed, it is not the end of the world. I've had friends who didn't get offers from CS or JPM, and then just went to Citi, etc.
Going from CS to Citi is going up the ladder, not down.
No way is this the case that going from CS to Citi is moving up.
you could always go biglaw.
see http://www.leveragedsellout.com/2006/08/biglaw-bigschmaw
i'm not going to lie it is going to be a very significant obstacle. i have three friends who worked at JPM last summer (2 IBD and 1 S&T) and did not get FT offers. All of them had extremely difficulty in the FT recruiting process. Now they all work in MM and BofA Public Finance. The "why didnt you get an offer" question will come up, and unfortunately no matter what you say your performance will at least be questioned.
that being said, I have friends with no offer who now work and Citi and CS. but it is just going to be very tough to overcome.
so knowing this, would anyone recommend taking a summer job at a bank like Citi as opposed to GS, knowing the likelihood of getting a full-time offer is greater?
No because any summer internship has risks...
I would take a big 4 internship + consultancy internship (McKinsey Corp Fin) + P&G/GE finance internship
All finance related so you will get FT interviews for sure
Or alternatively, you love to be at IBD so apply for sales internship do it and in case you don't get the offer you can say you like IBD more and you won't be screwed....
People who I know without the offer at the end of their internship and changed division from ibd to sales or trading ended up at very good places.. (GS/MS etc)
I am sure there are exceptions but I estimate that is only 10% of those who don't get an offer, all other summer intern rejects in US, EU, ASia are all screwed....
I don't even consider CS a bulge bracket anymore, they've gone to absolute shit in recent years
Why not send them an email? I'm sure they would like to discuss your decision to demote them.
hahaha! harsh but funny...
Just ran LEAG on Bloomie (underwriter tables) and they seem to be just out of the top 10 in EMEA/Europe for loans but are in the top 10 in the US... surprised me cos I always figured being a European-based bank they were stronger in Europe than in the US..
Who made you the IB rankings expert? Your opinion will go far I'm sure.
CS is ranked 47th in the Forture Global 500 and has been climbing. Their net income for 2006 was 9 billion (a 94% increase over the previous year). Their last two quarter earnings reports were excellent.
What's your problem?
This is a totally plausible answer to the question of whether you got a full-time offer, and interviewers will believe it and understand where you're coming from: You tell the interviewer that you didn't get a full-time offer. When he asks why, you tell him that toward the end of your internship, you mentioned to your "mentor" and/or some banker you became friends with that you really liked GS, had a great experience, but thought you might still consider interviewing with PE or HF for full-time jobs. You mentioned it off the cuff, it was just a casual conversation, you weren't complaining about GS, etc - and that was that. A couple of days later, someone in your SA class told you that there was a rumor going around that you were unhappy, and that you weren't going to accept a full-time offer if you got one. Predictably, b/c yield is such a concern to banks after they make offers, you didn't get an offer b/c the senior bankers thought you would reject it.
This is believable, and it's exactly the kind of crap banks pull. Plus, yield is basically the one and only acceptable reason why you didn't get a full-time offer.
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