S&T Overview and Pay
Can someone here give a good overview of Sales and Trading? I know there are many different types. I'm more interested in how you get clients. How much of the job is coming up with ideas vs. calling clients? How is pay based? What's the typical starting pay for an MBA that starts on an S&T desk?
Do a search. Everything you are asking has already been addressed numerous times.
The WSO guidebooks are a great reference. Everything you need for a background and interview prep.
Vault Guide
Understanding S&T Income Structure (Originally Posted: 12/27/2013)
I've been lurking around the forums here for a while but still haven't gotten a good answer for this question under recent market conditions. It seems like $70k base, $10k signing and a year-end bonus is expected for first year analysts in BB S&T. From talking to those in the industry, though, it sounds like the bonus for the very first year is not very performance based in many banks and is generally the same for all first year analysts within the bank. Also, my understanding is that initial S&T bonuses have been hit quite a bit more IBD bonuses. However, while it's easy enough to find information about the recent all-in IBD and consulting compensations for new hires, the same information is elusive for S&T. Does anyone have a sense of this across the banks? Of course, the slight differences here aren't anything to make career decisions over, but it would still be good to know.
My analyst class had the same bonus, we were ±3months in the job and it wasn't much to differentiate anyone.
70K base is bloody massive! Starting salary are massively over inflated compared to when I started, what an absolute joke though!
When you first start out, your first two years are extremely similar to the IBD division if that's any reassurance.
Hmm, interesting. From what I gathered, S&T bonuses for analysts are no longer on the same level as IBD bonuses. Do you know if the statement about them being similar still holds since '08?
I don't know where you get your intel, but I can tell you this: 1st and 2nd year analyst bonuses are peanuts so there is no reason why they should be massively different based on divisions. '08 or today, I don't see why that would be different. Someone you know might have gotten stiffed or was an under-performer in S&T which is why his second year bonus was sh.t, that's always a possibility.
Can you define peanuts, at least in terms of % of base in a not great/not terrible year?
There's probably more variability in S&T vs IBD. Bonuses depend on desk performance, and while different groups in IBD have different revenues I think the deviation from average is not as high. This is just a personal impression though, so might be way off.
Yea you are right, but that's more for the associate years, as an analyst it's very similar to IBD. Your bonus doesn't have much to do with how well your desk performed yet. Your MD can potentially ask for a carrot to be sent your way in your second year, if you believe you contributed massively, but that's the exception not the rule.
Someone asked for what peanuts mean: as a comparison to what you get as an associate/VP etc... on a good desk, what you get as an analyst is very small; and not relevant enough for the bank to really worry about. This is mainly what explains why S&T and IBD analysts are very similar in terms of comp in their first 2 years. (Well really it's in their first year and a half, as the 1st bonus hardly means anything given it's paid in winter for the S&T division)
Noob questions about S&T (Originally Posted: 01/08/2011)
Sorry for the newbie question. I was looking at B-School placement reports and I'm not clear what exactly is Sales and Trading. How is both related at all? Do MBA grads usually end up as traders? or is it more of a sales (not sure what sales exactly mean in a S&T context). Their salaries seem pretty low. Are they also paid my bonus commission similar to Investment banking levels?
How easy is it for an engineer with good experience do an MBA to become trader? I'm hoping this is what S&T in MBA placements mean?
no need for MBA for S&T
First it is usually difficult to get S&T out of an MBA, partly because you don't really need it, but also because S&T programs really focus recruiting at the undergrad level---so for an intern class of about 110 10 or so would be MBA students. If you plan on doing S&T out of the MBA, then it is really important that you get into a top 10 MBA program--I spoke to a kid at UChicago and he said kids had trouble getting S&T out of NY, but it was a little easier in Chicago. Of associate MBA students in intern programs I have met kids from LSE, Wharton, Harvard, UChicago, and Kellogg----giving you a sense of where banks find MBA S&T students.
As for the different between S&T, search this site for an hour or two and then come back. I know I and others have answered it.
...
Gekko21: you are incorrect, all major banks specifically recruit for sales and trading out of business school - actually a pretty big associate class for both, but yes you need to go to a top school (but you do anyway to get into a good place) if you have solid math/science background you will likely end up in trading, particularly fixed income, but a lot of folks go into sales (including ex bankers)
Wrong, most people go into trading right from UG, its tough to go after BSchool...as has been discussed
This is what I have seen at my BB as well as what MBA students have told me. If you can provide an example of it being different I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.
Thanks Gekko21. My apologies for not searching the forums on the same topic previously. I did get good info on sales vs. trading side. I couldn't find much info on the compensation side. For somebody who has engg experience and going to B-school, which is more economically lucarative assuming median performance? IB or trading? I have an idea of how the comp is for IB associates, but for trading Im not able to dig much info in WSO or online. I know I should be doing what I really like, rather than choosing based on comp, but Im curious about the compensation and it could help me.
Thanks.
Add Stern as well, they get recruited pretty well for banking and trading. However not so much for private equity lol.
I'm in the same boat as crazyfrog... I have an undergrad in engineering, but I am in MBA right now. I'm on the fence in deciding whether to go S&T or IB... I've heard a lot about Intern and Rotational programs at BBs that recruit specifically for MBAs and Grads, which enter as Associates...
Go to a Goldman/JPM/BofAML/Citi/CS recruiting event at Wharton/Chicago Booth/Sloan or any other quant school and see who the recruiters are - I guess all I have to go by is just experience - a lot of people I know who went to these schools ended up in trading (engineering, science, math background) can't do better than that
I've only met one younger guy (under 30) with an MBA on a trading floor and he was a Green Beret for 6 years and had major connections to get in. There are obviously some people who do it but the bottom line is that you should plan on getting into S&T out of undergrad, not after an MBA.
Having said that, if you're an MBA right now and want to do S&T then it can definitely be done. If that's what you want then you obviously should go all out to get it. I for one would never want to go into banking. The problem is that you will just be starting from scratch in S&T anyway even if you have an MBA, since people your age will have been in the industry for at least two years at that point, maybe more.
Ya, I kinda figured I might be coming in a little late. I won't finish my MBA until May 2012. So, I'm busting my ass right now, stretching all of my contacts, and networking like a mofo to get in the door for a Summer Associate position here in Houston. My resume has been forwarded to a few HR folks at a few shops here in town. I'm hoping to hear something soon. I plan on quitting my current full time job to go for the summer position.
If you can show them the kind of will to succeed that you have and really bust your ass then eventually things should work out. Just gotta keep on keepin on, man.
Awkwardly, getting placed in S&T after a MBA is a lot more common than undergrad placements in Canada.
OP, what desk are you particularly interested in? I think the S&T Vault guide is a great place to start. As far as pay is concerned, the overall comp will usually be lower than your M&A buddies, but also bear in mind that you'll be working 25% less in terms of hours. Regardless, I'd much rather be in front of a terminal than working dem pitch-books. It's also not surprising that most prospective traders (such as myself) are actually passionate about trading and financial markets, hence compensation comes secondary when weighing in alternate careers.
I guess if worse comes to worse, I'll head north to be a Kanuck!
^ Let's "trade places"...
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