• Sharebar

In case you missed it, there's been an ongoing, sustained effort by the Chinese government to hack foreign governments, companies, newspapers-- basically anything or anyone with a computer. As usual, the Chinese government is trying to play coy in the face of a mountain of evidence. It really doesn't surprise me though; it's just another example of the country's "why figure it out for ourselves when we can just steal it" mentality.

Sharing is caring; in a land where the biggest companies in the most critical sectors are controlled by the government, there's a lot that these companies could gain from a military-sponsored hacking program. No more need for forced technology-transfer JVs with dim-witted foreigners, these Chinese firms can just wait for the military to hack a foreign competitor and pass along the booty.

Today the group Mandiant released a report detailing the efforts of these military hackers, "PLA Unit 61398". It's a rather interesting read. Although the extent to which the chaps in Shanghai are going is disturbing, I'm actually not too worried about these groups. They seem to be a tad inept. You're not a very good hacker if your work makes The New York Times. I mean, isn't the name of the game supposed to be subtlety? Yes, they've stolen terabytes of data, but they seem to be rather sloppy about it.

And in the case of ripping off trade secrets and corporate strategies, stealing and copying will still only get one so far. It still takes critical thinking skills and the ability to grasp abstract problems to develop and improve upon the stolen ideas, which is something the Chinese are not able to do because of the country's education system. Original thought is not encouraged.

I'm also sure we have groups that are hacking them back. If the CIA and Mossad were able to create the Stuxnet virus to try to impede Iran's nuclear weapons program, then we most certainly also have a program or programs in place to go after the Chinese as well. The difference between us and the Chinese though is that we're much better at covering our tracks.

So I say we let the Chinese have their time in the sun for now, let them think they have the upper hand. Pride comes before the fall. That's not to say though that we don't need to harden our network defenses, especially those for our electric and water grids. I for one do not want Communist infiltration to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Comments (45)

  • PetEng's picture

    Hack them? For what?

    They are hacking US companies for IP. They don't have any tech we need or want because our companies are more advanced than them at virtually every single stage of the game. This situation won't last much longer.

    They are effectively declaring war on us to the tune of $30billion a year in stolen IP. Tariff their goods, prevent any products using stolen IP from being sold in EU/Japan/US (and ban those companies from ever selling goods in international markets for eternity), and sue the shit out of the Chinese government for assets in other countries.

    We just allowed CNOOC to buy Nexen assets in the US. US companies can't do the same in China. Don't approve any deals until they open up restrictions on buying Chinese assets.

    If they came and stole 30 billion dollars worth of land from us we'd declare war on them. This is no different.

  • Amphipathic's picture

    I'm curious olafenizer, you post a lot of negative stuff on China on this site, is there any particular reason?

  • In reply to Amphipathic
    PetEng's picture

    Amphipathic:
    I'm curious olafenizer, you post a lot of negative stuff on China on this site, is there any particular reason?
    Negative stuff, like how they are stealing American wealth (and EU/Japan/South Korea)?
  • In reply to PetEng
    Amphipathic's picture

    PetEng:
    Amphipathic:
    I'm curious olafenizer, you post a lot of negative stuff on China on this site, is there any particular reason?
    Negative stuff, like how they are stealing American wealth?

    No, not just that. Look at his history if you don't believe me. He starts lots of China threads. I generally find the stuff he writes interesting, because it's rather contrarian given the way people talk about China nowadays. I'm just curious why he singles out China not all the other sketch countries out there. Did he live in China and have a bad experience? Does he have to work with a lot of Chinese? Did Chairman Mao shoot his dog and steal his gf?

  • PetEng's picture

    According to his profile he currently lives in China. I would assume he is a foreigner though. *shrug*

  • In reply to PetEng
    Amphipathic's picture

    PetEng:
    According to his profile he currently lives in China. I would assume he is a foreigner though. *shrug*

    Ah didn't see that, I get the impression most people make up their profiles so I don't bother looking, my bad. My main concern was that the OP was just an american China hater. But given he lives there it makes sense he talks about China, and is well positioned to analyze it.

  • In reply to PetEng
    CuriousCharacter's picture

    PetEng:
    Hack them? For what?

    They are hacking US companies for IP. They don't have any tech we need or want because our companies are more advanced than them at virtually every single stage of the game. This situation won't last much longer.

    They are effectively declaring war on us to the tune of $30billion a year in stolen IP. Tariff their goods, prevent any products using stolen IP from being sold in EU/Japan/US (and ban those companies from ever selling goods in international markets for eternity), and sue the shit out of the Chinese government for assets in other countries.

    We just allowed CNOOC to buy Nexen assets in the US. US companies can't do the same in China. Don't approve any deals until they open up restrictions on buying Chinese assets.

    If they came and stole 30 billion dollars worth of land from us we'd declare war on them. This is no different.

    I never understood the concept of intellectual property. It's essentially state granted monopoly, and monopolies are bad.

    How about some free trade?

  • In reply to CuriousCharacter
    PetEng's picture

    evilbyaccident:
    PetEng:
    Hack them? For what?

    They are hacking US companies for IP. They don't have any tech we need or want because our companies are more advanced than them at virtually every single stage of the game. This situation won't last much longer.

    They are effectively declaring war on us to the tune of $30billion a year in stolen IP. Tariff their goods, prevent any products using stolen IP from being sold in EU/Japan/US (and ban those companies from ever selling goods in international markets for eternity), and sue the shit out of the Chinese government for assets in other countries.

    We just allowed CNOOC to buy Nexen assets in the US. US companies can't do the same in China. Don't approve any deals until they open up restrictions on buying Chinese assets.

    If they came and stole 30 billion dollars worth of land from us we'd declare war on them. This is no different.

    I never understood the concept of intellectual property. It's essentially state granted monopoly, and monopolies are bad.

    How about some free trade?

    Sure, lets get some free trade. Still doesn't get through the fact they are committing criminal acts against US corporate networks and they should be punished, as we would punish any common hacker.
  • In reply to CuriousCharacter
    Tri_Optimum's picture

    evilbyaccident:
    PetEng:
    Hack them? For what?

    They are hacking US companies for IP. They don't have any tech we need or want because our companies are more advanced than them at virtually every single stage of the game. This situation won't last much longer.

    They are effectively declaring war on us to the tune of $30billion a year in stolen IP. Tariff their goods, prevent any products using stolen IP from being sold in EU/Japan/US (and ban those companies from ever selling goods in international markets for eternity), and sue the shit out of the Chinese government for assets in other countries.

    We just allowed CNOOC to buy Nexen assets in the US. US companies can't do the same in China. Don't approve any deals until they open up restrictions on buying Chinese assets.

    If they came and stole 30 billion dollars worth of land from us we'd declare war on them. This is no different.

    I never understood the concept of intellectual property. It's essentially state granted monopoly, and monopolies are bad.

    How about some free trade?

    Because if you're not entitled to the legal protection to monetize your idea without it being stolen, what incentive do you have to produce it in the first place?

  • mongoose's picture

    This is based on no actual facts, but something makes me believe that the NSA is running train around the Chinese cyber warriors. The Chinese are just dumb enough to get caught doing this.

    I hope the NSA runs a massive disinformation campaign. Remember how we blew up a Soviet gas pipeline by writing malicious code on tech that the commies were stealing from us? Waiting see something in China go Ka-Boom soon with a friendly warning: Please don't steal from us again!

  • Banker HK's picture

    [quote=olafenizer]In case you missed it, there's been an ongoing, sustained effort by the Chinese government to hack foreign governments, companies, newspapers-- basically anything or anyone with a computer. quote]

    Yes , there is absolutly no state sponsor hacking program anywhere else, especially by the US CIA. Espionage is a so Chinese.

    [quote=olafenizer] Chinese firms can just wait for the military to hack a foreign competitor and pass along the booty.
    quote]

    Are you suggesting that the military is working with the commercial entities? I can assure you the Military does not give a dame about the corp interest. Why should they?

    [quote=olafenizer] critical thinking skills and the ability to grasp abstract problems to develop and improve upon the stolen ideas, which is something the Chinese are not able to do because of the country's education system. Original thought is not encouraged.
    quote]

    There is some truth to that... but even if that is true do you have any idea how many chinese who study abroad returns to china? That is a sizeable human capital which is often the top teir in their respective field.

    If Steve Jobs is one in a million, there is about 1,300 people just like him in China. Simply thinking that there is no developement or advancement in a country like China is just...

    [quote=olafenizer] The difference between us and the Chinese though is that we're much better at covering our tracks.

    quote]

    e... no. It is just that US CIA hacking XYZ is not really news in the US.

  • PetEng's picture

    Are you suggesting that the military is working with the commercial entities? I can assure you the Military does not give a dame about the corp interest. Why should they?
    You are fucking clueless then. You think the information gathered from Chinese military hacks against western oil companies isn't shared with state controlled Chinese oil companies? Umm, why the fuck would they hack the companies then?
  • neoachilles's picture

    Another clueless china bashing thread pretending to be based upon facts instead of speculations, and I'm amazed that people still buy the dumb "Chinese are less creative because they study too hard in high school" argument. What this generation of American needs to understand is that there's a difference between being stupid and being creative. Keep telling yourself they are less creative than you the next time the Asian kid gets A while you get B, if that comforts you.

  • In reply to PetEng
    Banker HK's picture

    PetEng:
    Are you suggesting that the military is working with the commercial entities? I can assure you the Military does not give a dame about the corp interest. Why should they?
    You are fucking clueless then. You think the information gathered from Chinese military hacks against western oil companies isn't shared with state controlled Chinese oil companies? Umm, why the fuck would they hack the companies then?

    ok, if you are talking about the large state strategic corp like oil etc... how is that different from any other country...? Do you really think the information gathered by the British/US military is not shared with the the likes of BP or Hailburton? For god sakes Dick Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton before becoming Vice president.

    And perhaps lets consider another point. How about Chinese military hacked oil majors because oil is a strategic resource for the Military, and not driven by commcercial interest... but hey, you obviously spoken with Chinese top military officials ... so I guess i am complete off.

  • olafenizer's picture

    Amphipathic:
    PetEng:
    According to his profile he currently lives in China. I would assume he is a foreigner though. *shrug*

    Ah didn't see that, I get the impression most people make up their profiles so I don't bother looking, my bad. My main concern was that the OP was just an american China hater. But given he lives there it makes sense he talks about China, and is well positioned to analyze it.


    I enjoy espousing contrarian opinions mainly to see what kind of reaction I can get out of people. It's fun because basically everything I write goes against the Party line, which in turn elicits a hilarious uproar from the local 50-Cent Party about how I'm a hater, I'm stupid, I have a small penis, etc. The fake nationalism in China is incredibly entertaining for me.

    But not only that, it gets really boring hearing the same rehashed crap time and again that it's some sort of foregone conclusion that it's China's manifest destiny to become the next sole superpower. I try to get a discussion going by taking an extreme position that goes against the grain. Yes, my living in China does also help provide color to my observations. Some of what I write is hyperbole, but if I just regurgitate whatever is in the China Daily with a nod of agreement and a salute to the Comrades who cooked it up, well that wouldn't be very entertaining would it?

  • CountryUnderdog's picture

    When I read the title I thought this was going to be about the economic problems of world of warcraft and diablo.

    "They are all former investment bankers that were laid off in the economic collapse that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have no marketable skills, but by God they work hard."

  • In reply to CountryUnderdog
    Sham Wow's picture

    CountryUnderdog:
    When I read the title I thought this was going to be about the economic problems of world of warcraft and diablo.

    Yes very misleading title considering this has nothing to do with gold farmers.

  • FeelingMean's picture

    neoachilles:
    Another clueless china bashing thread pretending to be based upon facts instead of speculations, and I'm amazed that people still buy the dumb "Chinese are less creative because they study too hard in high school" argument. What this generation of American needs to understand is that there's a difference between being stupid and being creative. Keep telling yourself they are less creative than you the next time the Asian kid gets A while you get B, if that comforts you.

    Yo dawg, you Asian?

    How does "getting an A" make someone more creative? The Chinese are stealing intellectual property and not really getting away with it. What are YOU talking about? When I think of China, I do not think of creativity or innovation- I think of copying, stealing, lying, corruption, pollution, etc...

    Of all the Chinese students who come to the US, how many have started a business or done something creative? How many have taken accounting/finance/MO/BO/STEM roles, etc?

    This is a chance for you to completely prove me wrong, and show me that Chinese people are creative. I hope you can. Also, can you justify what they are doing? Is that "creative"?

    "That dude is so haole, he don't even have any breath left."

  • In reply to olafenizer
    Amphipathic's picture

    olafenizer:
    Amphipathic:
    PetEng:
    According to his profile he currently lives in China. I would assume he is a foreigner though. *shrug*

    Ah didn't see that, I get the impression most people make up their profiles so I don't bother looking, my bad. My main concern was that the OP was just an american China hater. But given he lives there it makes sense he talks about China, and is well positioned to analyze it.


    I enjoy espousing contrarian opinions mainly to see what kind of reaction I can get out of people. It's fun because basically everything I write goes against the Party line, which in turn elicits a hilarious uproar from the local 50-Cent Party about how I'm a hater, I'm stupid, I have a small penis, etc. The fake nationalism in China is incredibly entertaining for me.

    But not only that, it gets really boring hearing the same rehashed crap time and again that it's some sort of foregone conclusion that it's China's manifest destiny to become the next sole superpower. I try to get a discussion going by taking an extreme position that goes against the grain. Yes, my living in China does also help provide color to my observations. Some of what I write is hyperbole, but if I just regurgitate whatever is in the China Daily with a nod of agreement and a salute to the Comrades who cooked it up, well that wouldn't be very entertaining would it?

    Gotcha.
    I don't deny that I'm leaning in the camp that China is going to be the next sole superpower, not because feel it has some manifest destiny (you point out many its flaws in your threads), but rather because the West (America in particular) is too fucked up. I think you forget the problems of your native country. Fiscally, America's gov't is in a far far worse position than China's. In terms of education, we have colleges that award useless degrees for students that rack up insane amounts of debt while studying 10hr/week and spending the remainder on fbook/videogames/drinking. Culturally, America has lost the personal initiative and responsibility that made it great, and now has unprecedented levels of entitlement and political correctness. These problems are solvable, but not in a democracy where politicians don't have the incentive to make the tough decisions. America is going to either blow up Greece-style (unlikely) or fade into oblivion France-style (likely).

  • In reply to FeelingMean
    Amphipathic's picture

    FeelingMean:
    neoachilles:
    Another clueless china bashing thread pretending to be based upon facts instead of speculations, and I'm amazed that people still buy the dumb "Chinese are less creative because they study too hard in high school" argument. What this generation of American needs to understand is that there's a difference between being stupid and being creative. Keep telling yourself they are less creative than you the next time the Asian kid gets A while you get B, if that comforts you.

    Yo dawg, you Asian?

    How does "getting an A" make someone more creative? The Chinese are stealing intellectual property and not really getting away with it. What are YOU talking about? When I think of China, I do not think of creativity or innovation- I think of copying, stealing, lying, corruption, pollution, etc...

    Of all the Chinese students who come to the US, how many have started a business or done something creative? How many have taken accounting/finance/MO/BO/STEM roles, etc?

    This is a chance for you to completely prove me wrong, and show me that Chinese people are creative. I hope you can. Also, can you justify what they are doing? Is that "creative"?

    I've made friends with a number of fob Chinese students (albeit in an elite grad program, so there may be selection bias) and I find them to be a hell of a lot more creative (and smarter and hardworking) than their American counterparts. Remember Edison's adage that genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration? They have that down cold.

  • In reply to Amphipathic
    olafenizer's picture

    Amphipathic:

    Gotcha.
    I don't deny that I'm leaning in the camp that China is going to be the next sole superpower, not because feel it has some manifest destiny (you point out many its flaws in your threads), but rather because the West (America in particular) is too fucked up. I think you forget the problems of your native country. Fiscally, America's gov't is in a far far worse position than China's. In terms of education, we have colleges that award useless degrees for students that rack up insane amounts of debt while studying 10hr/week and spending the remainder on fbook/videogames/drinking. Culturally, America has lost the personal initiative and responsibility that made it great, and now has unprecedented levels of entitlement and political correctness. These problems are solvable, but not in a democracy where politicians don't have the incentive to make the tough decisions. America is going to either blow up Greece-style (unlikely) or fade into oblivion France-style (likely).

    Perhaps you're right, that my being out of the US causes me to romanticize my thoughts about my homeland and to be more apt to look past the ugly things. I do believe though that the number one threat facing the US is our unwillingness to address entitlement reform. Spending on Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security takes up just short of half the federal budget. This pussyfoot talk of cuts of a few hundred billion out of the defense budget and discretionary spending will not solve our fiscal woes. I disagree with you though when you say that these problems are not solvable in a democracy. It's not the politicians that don't have the incentives, it's the people who don't have the right incentives at the moment. It takes a crisis to really change people's habits, and we majorly squandered the opportunity provided by the last crisis, the financial crisis.

    China might not have critical budget woes now, but there is a major demographic time bomb that is ticking. They have the One Child Policy to thank for that. And demographics is not a problem that you can fix overnight.

    I think it's completely within the realm of possibility that the US blows up Greece-style. As for France, Germany, and the other major European countries- they have faded themselves into oblivion, in the individual nation sense, in order to further the idea of the EU, an economically/politically united Europe that is more about Europe as a whole rather than individual nations.

  • In reply to Amphipathic
    CaR's picture

    Amphipathic: Gotcha.
    I don't deny that I'm leaning in the camp that China is going to be the next sole superpower, not because feel it has some manifest destiny (you point out many its flaws in your threads), but rather because the West (America in particular) is too fucked up. I think you forget the problems of your native country. Fiscally, America's gov't is in a far far worse position than China's. In terms of education, we have colleges that award useless degrees for students that rack up insane amounts of debt while studying 10hr/week and spending the remainder on fbook/videogames/drinking. Culturally, America has lost the personal initiative and responsibility that made it great, and now has unprecedented levels of entitlement and political correctness. These problems are solvable, but not in a democracy where politicians don't have the incentive to make the tough decisions. America is going to either blow up Greece-style (unlikely) or fade into oblivion France-style (likely).

    Well, no one that I've ever heard has used "manifest destiny" as an argument before, but thanks for clearing that up chief.
    Regarding America's government and fiscal position being far worse than China's: your country (I assume you're Chinese) runs based on an export and investment driven economy. The 4.8% urban growth rate in the 90's and 4.6% growth rate the following decade were the drivers behind an attempted shift from agriculture to industry based economy, which has served you extremely well in terms of GDP. However, this decade, you're forecasted to have half that growth, and even less from there on out. In other words, you're reaching your Lewis turning point i.e. the point at which the shift of people from agriculture to manufacturing does not lead to productivity gains. With slowing urbanization and an export economy, please explain to me how you will sustain your GDP growth. Who do you think buys the majority of your exports? Also, don't forget China has a billion people (GDP per capita is key here) and has edible breathing air. It is my view, and most global economists', that China needs the US.

    Regarding tough decisions: such is the nature of democracy. It's not that "politicians can't make tough decisions." I wish there were an easier way, but in a system that was designed to be slow and create gridlock, matters become bipartisan and polarizing. Lots of bickering, lots of protest and misguided activism. Again, I wish it were not that way, but at least Americans have some semblance of an idea of what their government is doing. Yes, our youth plays too many video games (interesting argument a Chinese person would bring up), and we like our alcohol, but America is a great place; if it weren't, half the analysts I work with wouldn't be Chinese immigrants. The only thing in your baseless ramble I agree with is that we've become too entitled and politically correct. That's undeniable, and it pisses me off. But if you're going to compare the US to France or Greece, then at least resuscitate your claim.

  • In reply to FeelingMean
    neoachilles's picture

    FeelingMean:
    neoachilles:
    Another clueless china bashing thread pretending to be based upon facts instead of speculations, and I'm amazed that people still buy the dumb "Chinese are less creative because they study too hard in high school" argument. What this generation of American needs to understand is that there's a difference between being stupid and being creative. Keep telling yourself they are less creative than you the next time the Asian kid gets A while you get B, if that comforts you.

    Yo dawg, you Asian?

    How does "getting an A" make someone more creative? The Chinese are stealing intellectual property and not really getting away with it. What are YOU talking about? When I think of China, I do not think of creativity or innovation- I think of copying, stealing, lying, corruption, pollution, etc...

    Of all the Chinese students who come to the US, how many have started a business or done something creative? How many have taken accounting/finance/MO/BO/STEM roles, etc?

    This is a chance for you to completely prove me wrong, and show me that Chinese people are creative. I hope you can. Also, can you justify what they are doing? Is that "creative"?

    I didn't say "getting an A" make someone creative, I'm saying that getting a "B" doesn't make someone creative. The generalization that the hard-working Chinese students are less creative than their American counterparts who spit out the first idea come to mind is ridiculous. I'm saying that the dividing line between creativity and stupidity is blurred in this country. I've seen way too many examples of a stupid idea without any logical thinking considered creative.

    I'm not sure what you mean by " Of all the Chinese students who come to the US, how many have started a business or done something creative? How many have taken accounting/finance/MO/BO/STEM roles, etc?" Are you implying that finance/engineering roles require less creativity than opening a tobacco store? Do you have any sort of data, like the percentage of Chinese entrepreneurs vs. other minorities? How do you qualify and quantify creativity in the first place anyway?

    I'm not the one that started the "1.3 billion people don't have creativity" generalization. I believe creativity is a complex concept and exists everywhere in the world.

  • In reply to CaR
    Amphipathic's picture

    CaR:
    Amphipathic: Gotcha.
    I don't deny that I'm leaning in the camp that China is going to be the next sole superpower, not because feel it has some manifest destiny (you point out many its flaws in your threads), but rather because the West (America in particular) is too fucked up. I think you forget the problems of your native country. Fiscally, America's gov't is in a far far worse position than China's. In terms of education, we have colleges that award useless degrees for students that rack up insane amounts of debt while studying 10hr/week and spending the remainder on fbook/videogames/drinking. Culturally, America has lost the personal initiative and responsibility that made it great, and now has unprecedented levels of entitlement and political correctness. These problems are solvable, but not in a democracy where politicians don't have the incentive to make the tough decisions. America is going to either blow up Greece-style (unlikely) or fade into oblivion France-style (likely).

    Well, no one that I've ever heard has used "manifest destiny" as an argument before, but thanks for clearing that up chief.
    Regarding America's government and fiscal position being far worse than China's: your country (I assume you're Chinese) runs based on an export and investment driven economy. The 4.8% urban growth rate in the 90's and 4.6% growth rate the following decade were the drivers behind an attempted shift from agriculture to industry based economy, which has served you extremely well in terms of GDP. However, this decade, you're forecasted to have half that growth, and even less from there on out. In other words, you're reaching your Lewis turning point i.e. the point at which the shift of people from agriculture to manufacturing does not lead to productivity gains. With slowing urbanization and an export economy, please explain to me how you will sustain your GDP growth. Who do you think buys the majority of your exports? Also, don't forget China has a billion people (GDP per capita is key here) and has edible breathing air. It is my view, and most global economists', that China needs the US.

    Regarding tough decisions: such is the nature of democracy. It's not that "politicians can't make tough decisions." I wish there were an easier way, but in a system that was designed to be slow and create gridlock, matters become bipartisan and polarizing. Lots of bickering, lots of protest and misguided activism. Again, I wish it were not that way, but at least Americans have some semblance of an idea of what their government is doing. Yes, our youth plays too many video games (interesting argument a Chinese person would bring up), and we like our alcohol, but America is a great place; if it weren't, half the analysts I work with wouldn't be Chinese immigrants. The only thing in your baseless ramble I agree with is that we've become too entitled and politically correct. That's undeniable, and it pisses me off. But if you're going to compare the US to France or Greece, then at least resuscitate your claim.

    Hey there Captain America. First, I am American (and white). I'm not anti-American, and I don't like the facts, I'm just disgusted with what I see and am calling it out. Second, I used the term 'manifest destiny' because the OP used it above when describing the China fan boys. Third, my statements are not baseless and certainly not new. It's no secret that American undergrad (outside targets) is four-year party and Americans are now more uneducated than ever before, while the Chinese study their asses off and are more educated than ever in their history. Just looking at the public ledger, we have a 16 trillion debt, a 1 trillion deficit monetized by the fed, unfunded entitlement liabilities that are ticking time bombs, and a gov't that wants to perpetually kick the can down the road. Like I said before, I'm not denying the OP's claims that China has its own set of shit to deal with, and it will be interesting to see how well they switch from export/urbanization-driven economy to a mature economy. That being said, given the US's problems I think China is a relatively better position. Sooner or later the bond markets decide to punish US treasuries for our profligacy, and then we will be in France or Greece territory.

  • In reply to olafenizer
    Amphipathic's picture

    olafenizer:
    Amphipathic:

    Gotcha.
    I don't deny that I'm leaning in the camp that China is going to be the next sole superpower, not because feel it has some manifest destiny (you point out many its flaws in your threads), but rather because the West (America in particular) is too fucked up. I think you forget the problems of your native country. Fiscally, America's gov't is in a far far worse position than China's. In terms of education, we have colleges that award useless degrees for students that rack up insane amounts of debt while studying 10hr/week and spending the remainder on fbook/videogames/drinking. Culturally, America has lost the personal initiative and responsibility that made it great, and now has unprecedented levels of entitlement and political correctness. These problems are solvable, but not in a democracy where politicians don't have the incentive to make the tough decisions. America is going to either blow up Greece-style (unlikely) or fade into oblivion France-style (likely).

    Perhaps you're right, that my being out of the US causes me to romanticize my thoughts about my homeland and to be more apt to look past the ugly things. I do believe though that the number one threat facing the US is our unwillingness to address entitlement reform. Spending on Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security takes up just short of half the federal budget. This pussyfoot talk of cuts of a few hundred billion out of the defense budget and discretionary spending will not solve our fiscal woes. I disagree with you though when you say that these problems are not solvable in a democracy. It's not the politicians that don't have the incentives, it's the people who don't have the right incentives at the moment. It takes a crisis to really change people's habits, and we majorly squandered the opportunity provided by the last crisis, the financial crisis.

    China might not have critical budget woes now, but there is a major demographic time bomb that is ticking. They have the One Child Policy to thank for that. And demographics is not a problem that you can fix overnight.

    I think it's completely within the realm of possibility that the US blows up Greece-style. As for France, Germany, and the other major European countries- they have faded themselves into oblivion, in the individual nation sense, in order to further the idea of the EU, an economically/politically united Europe that is more about Europe as a whole rather than individual nations.

    Well, I've gotten a bit jaded as of late when it comes to democracy, I dunno if it works in a situation where the gov't has the power to bail out banks/individuals and hand out gifts to special interests. Regardless of how bad things are, I have a feeling voters will just shift the burden to their neighbors. I guess we will find out by watching how things play out in the EU, if voters will accept that the gov't-debt fueled party is over and realize that the insane pensions, worker protections, 35-hr work weeks, etc need to get curtailed. I am surprised by how quietly they are taking the austerity thus far. But I've also read that the structural reforms are proceeding way too slowly, and far right and left parties are rising...

  • In reply to olafenizer
    Amphipathic's picture

    olafenizer:

    China might not have critical budget woes now, but there is a major demographic time bomb that is ticking. They have the One Child Policy to thank for that. And demographics is not a problem that you can fix overnight.

    Absolutely. On that score, I know its not PC to talk about, but you gotta wonder how things will work out in the US when whites become a minority 10-15 years from now.

  • In reply to Amphipathic
    PetEng's picture

    Amphipathic:
    olafenizer:

    China might not have critical budget woes now, but there is a major demographic time bomb that is ticking. They have the One Child Policy to thank for that. And demographics is not a problem that you can fix overnight.

    Absolutely. On that score, I know its not PC to talk about, but you gotta wonder how things will work out in the US when whites become a minority 10-15 years from now.

    I don't wonder about it'll turn out. I know it'll turn into total dogshit; getting that visa ready as we speak. I've lived in the diversity gravy train for my whole life.

    Here's a nice little primer on how the replacement population can't fucking hack it on STEM degrees.
    http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/stem.pdf

  • In reply to Banker HK
    PetEng's picture

    Banker HK:
    PetEng:
    Are you suggesting that the military is working with the commercial entities? I can assure you the Military does not give a dame about the corp interest. Why should they?
    You are fucking clueless then. You think the information gathered from Chinese military hacks against western oil companies isn't shared with state controlled Chinese oil companies? Umm, why the fuck would they hack the companies then?

    ok, if you are talking about the large state strategic corp like oil etc... how is that different from any other country...? Do you really think the information gathered by the British/US military is not shared with the the likes of BP or Hailburton? For god sakes Dick Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton before becoming Vice president.

    And perhaps lets consider another point. How about Chinese military hacked oil majors because oil is a strategic resource for the Military, and not driven by commcercial interest... but hey, you obviously spoken with Chinese top military officials ... so I guess i am complete off.

    Yes, once again you are fucking clueless.

    Hacking western oil companies gets you access to pricing information for block/lease/field auctions. That additional information aids in bidding for projects. No, I don't think the CIA hacks Total/ENI/Repsol in order to aid Chevron or Exxon in bidding for projects in Iraq. Do I think that the Chinese military does this to benefit CNOOC/PetroChina/Sinopec? Yes, I do.

  • In reply to PetEng
    Amphipathic's picture

    PetEng:
    Amphipathic:
    olafenizer:

    China might not have critical budget woes now, but there is a major demographic time bomb that is ticking. They have the One Child Policy to thank for that. And demographics is not a problem that you can fix overnight.

    Absolutely. On that score, I know its not PC to talk about, but you gotta wonder how things will work out in the US when whites become a minority 10-15 years from now.

    I don't wonder about it'll turn out. I know it'll turn into total dogshit; getting that visa ready as we speak. I've lived in the diversity gravy train for my whole life.

    Here's a nice little primer on how the replacement population can't fucking hack it on STEM degrees.
    http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/stem.pdf[/qu...

    Okay, I know too, just didn't have the balls to say it outright.

    Thanks for the link, I've heard about that report but hadn't read it.

  • In reply to PetEng
    Banker HK's picture

    PetEng:
    Banker HK:
    PetEng:
    Are you suggesting that the military is working with the commercial entities? I can assure you the Military does not give a dame about the corp interest. Why should they?
    You are fucking clueless then. You think the information gathered from Chinese military hacks against western oil companies isn't shared with state controlled Chinese oil companies? Umm, why the fuck would they hack the companies then?

    ok, if you are talking about the large state strategic corp like oil etc... how is that different from any other country...? Do you really think the information gathered by the British/US military is not shared with the the likes of BP or Hailburton? For god sakes Dick Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton before becoming Vice president.

    And perhaps lets consider another point. How about Chinese military hacked oil majors because oil is a strategic resource for the Military, and not driven by commcercial interest... but hey, you obviously spoken with Chinese top military officials ... so I guess i am complete off.

    Yes, once again you are fucking clueless.

    Hacking western oil companies gets you access to pricing information for block/lease/field auctions. That additional information aids in bidding for projects. No, I don't think the CIA hacks Total/ENI/Repsol in order to aid Chevron or Exxon in bidding for projects in Iraq. Do I think that the Chinese military does this to benefit CNOOC/PetroChina/Sinopec? Yes, I do.

    Really... so you think it is just coincidence that US Majors have won vast majority of the projects in Iraq and the surrounding regions? Ok, fine, it is not Hacking per say, but it is still state influcing commercial interest to secure strategic resources.

    keep on hating... cause we know US never stole anything ....

  • In reply to Banker HK
    PetEng's picture

    Banker HK:
    Really... so you think it is just coincidence that US Majors have won vast majority of the projects in Iraq and the surrounding regions? Ok, fine, it is not Hacking per say, but it is still state influcing commercial interest to secure strategic resources.

    keep on hating... cause we know US never stole anything ....

    We certainly never stole anything from China. It'd actually have to create tech worth stealing. Maybe in 20 years we'll be revisiting this conversation.
  • In reply to PetEng
    Banker HK's picture

    PetEng:
    Banker HK:
    Really... so you think it is just coincidence that US Majors have won vast majority of the projects in Iraq and the surrounding regions? Ok, fine, it is not Hacking per say, but it is still state influcing commercial interest to secure strategic resources.

    keep on hating... cause we know US never stole anything ....

    We certainly never stole anything from China. It'd actually have to create tech worth stealing. Maybe in 20 years we'll be revisiting this conversation.

    China steal bad... US steals ok ...? or is your point ok to steal only if we stole from you first?

    My point is not US stole from China, but all nations are only responsible to serve what is best for themselves. Otherwise start paying royalities for gun powder, paper...etc..

  • Gamble's picture

    I've always come to this website to read the posts of what I used to believe were brilliant minds.. Much lost respect to the children who are getting emotional over this, forget what you think you know about the hackings.. Whatever the NY times publishes comes straight from the US Government anyway so if you take it word for word them you are indeed- an idiot...

    Anyway, bankers should see beyond peasant issues and understand the actual effects from these cases and think about how to benefit from them..

  • In reply to Banker HK
    PetEng's picture

    Banker HK:
    PetEng:
    Banker HK:
    Really... so you think it is just coincidence that US Majors have won vast majority of the projects in Iraq and the surrounding regions? Ok, fine, it is not Hacking per say, but it is still state influcing commercial interest to secure strategic resources.

    keep on hating... cause we know US never stole anything ....

    We certainly never stole anything from China. It'd actually have to create tech worth stealing. Maybe in 20 years we'll be revisiting this conversation.

    China steal bad... US steals ok ...? or is your point ok to steal only if we stole from you first?

    My point is not US stole from China, but all nations are only responsible to serve what is best for themselves. Otherwise start paying royalities for gun powder, paper...etc..

    That wasn't your initial point. Your initial point was that China was blameless and wasn't hacking. That's demonstrably false.

    So you are on to point #2, that nations should serve their own interests. And that's why I think the US should play hardball with China. Tariffs, sanctions, and getting Chinese assets in other countries.

  • TNA's picture

    I think it is pretty obvious that the Chinese government is either sponsoring these attacks or looking the other way. Either way they are aiding and abetting. Give Taiwan nukes and call it a day lol.

  • In reply to TNA
    CaR's picture

    TNA:
    I think it is pretty obvious that the Chinese government is either sponsoring these attacks or looking the other way. Either way they are aiding and abetting. Give Taiwan nukes and call it a day lol.
  • In reply to Banker HK
    CaR's picture

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  • In reply to CaR
    olafenizer's picture