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Suppose you've got yourself a pet project, one that's very near and dear to your heart. You've spent a ton of time, sweat, and treasure to get this thing up and running on its own, but try as you might, it just doesn't seem to be working out. How do you approach it?

If you're Jim Rogers, the answer is: Cut it off, say sayonara, and let it fix itself.

Step 1. Canceling all the African nations' debt, he claims in "Adventure Capitalist," will save the continent $30 billion in annual financing fees (in 2001 money). That's of course, assuming that these nations would put those savings to productive use (instead of on things like armies, private jets, and lavish palaces--but really, who would do that?).
But ah, there's a solution for all those wars as well, says our pal Jim.

Step 2. Simply have the existing African nations form a parliament and re-draw all the present borders, many of which were set up by the colonial powers with no idea of the conflicts that would result. No UN involved, just them. Of course, getting more than thirty nations together not only to calmly talk things out but also take action (!) makes the formation of the EU seem like a cakewalk.

Oh, and part 3 is that all the foreign aid to Africa gets shut off as a condition of the debt cancellation. Of all the parts of this plan, this is the one that makes most sense to me. Most of it ends up being stolen by warlords, corrupt officials, and sham NGOs anyway, which no one really contests. It wouldn't be such a problem if we just, I don't know, bothered to watch the money--but who wants to do that? Better to just say, "I increased foreign aid" to win votes.

Like many of the strident libertarian ideas he espouses in his book, this one operates on some generous assumptions. I admit after so many decades of frustration, the plan is appealing at least as a means of shutting up the critics who scream that Africa's problems are entirely the fault of the West. But if Jim's plan doesn't work, we'll still be left holding the chicken. Seems like a lose-lose situation, almost.

Or is this the right way to go? Is it crazy enough that it just might work? Or is something more moderate/practical the way to go?

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Comments (175)

  • PetEng's picture

    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

  • In reply to PetEng
    BTbanker's picture

    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Spoken like a true realist.
  • Ravenous's picture

    You gotta recut the map by digging a moat around each country. That would stop all of the foreign invasions. The problem with Africa is that any time anyone gets something going, some group of assholes comes in and messes it up. I'm telling you, moats is the only solution. Really, really big moats.

  • M Friedman's picture

    This American Capitalist book must be pretty damn good

  • In reply to PetEng
    Zalachenko's picture

    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Wow, I don't think I could agree more with this guy...

  • alreadyrich's picture

    Rome was also more advanced than the average Asian (even some european) village today.

    painfully dumb analogy. Some people really need to travel out of the country to get some perspective

  • WSJ123's picture

    ^Bullshit, look at the difference between North and South Korea. You could've said the same thing before and now look at how political and economic institutions change the world and the country.

  • WSJ123's picture
  • In reply to PetEng
    JeremyLinMVP's picture

    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.

    Seems like there are some racists in this thread.

  • In reply to JeremyLinMVP
    Anomanderis's picture

    JeremyLinMVP:
    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.

    Seems like there are some racists in this thread.

    Some? Heh.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to JeremyLinMVP
    Zalachenko's picture

    JeremyLinMVP:
    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.

    Seems like there are some racists in this thread.

    Read what he said, ''average African village today'', he didn't specify. You've given a single example, good job.

    Not racists, realists. This situation has been going on forever, do you seriously think it'll be considerably different in 60 years time?

  • In reply to Zalachenko
    Anomanderis's picture

    Zalachenko:
    JeremyLinMVP:
    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.

    Seems like there are some racists in this thread.

    Read what he said, ''average African village today'', he didn't specify. You've given a single example, good job.

    Not racists, realists. This situation has been going on forever, do you seriously think it'll be considerably different in 60 years time?

    What's this? Forever? When did this forever start? in the 1600-1900s when europe was trawling africa for slaves? In the 19th - 20th centuries when Africa was colonially controlled? In the 50's and 60's when the leadership was skewed heavily by unnecessary western meddling in african politics?

    No seriously, define this "forever", please.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • WSJ123's picture

    Zalachenko: Look at how the world changed as a result of the industrial revolution. Look at how Japan has grown after throwing away its inner looking attitude. Look at how China has grown by changing its political and economic policies. 60 years is plenty of time.

  • Anomanderis's picture

    Re-reading these posts makes me worry for wall street, the vast majority of you guys are Sarah Palin level dumb. DUMB. Africa is less developed that Rome 2000 years ago? By what standard is that statement made if I may ask? How are you measuring this "underdevelopment"?

    I'm just stunned, stunned. I thought this level of ignorance only existed in the backroads of the south.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    Zalachenko's picture

    Anomanderis:
    Zalachenko:
    JeremyLinMVP:
    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.

    Seems like there are some racists in this thread.

    Read what he said, ''average African village today'', he didn't specify. You've given a single example, good job.

    Not racists, realists. This situation has been going on forever, do you seriously think it'll be considerably different in 60 years time?

    What's this? Forever? When did this forever start? in the 1600-1900s when europe was trawling africa for slaves? In the 19th - 20th centuries when Africa was colonially controlled? In the 50's and 60's when the leadership was skewed heavily by unnecessary western meddling in african politics?

    No seriously, define this "forever", please.

    It's not relevant to the topic, my point was that the situation in Africa has pretty much been in the same conditions since the start of Modern History (even though it goes far before that) and it's highly unlikely it'll change - at least anytime soon.

  • In reply to Zalachenko
    Anomanderis's picture

    Zalachenko:
    Anomanderis:
    Zalachenko:
    JeremyLinMVP:
    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.

    Seems like there are some racists in this thread.

    Read what he said, ''average African village today'', he didn't specify. You've given a single example, good job.

    Not racists, realists. This situation has been going on forever, do you seriously think it'll be considerably different in 60 years time?

    What's this? Forever? When did this forever start? in the 1600-1900s when europe was trawling africa for slaves? In the 19th - 20th centuries when Africa was colonially controlled? In the 50's and 60's when the leadership was skewed heavily by unnecessary western meddling in african politics?

    No seriously, define this "forever", please.

    It's not relevant to the topic, my point was that the situation in Africa has been pretty much been in the same conditions since the start of Modern History (even though it goes far before that) and it's highly unlikely it'll change - at least anytime soon.

    Dude, break it down, how do you mean "pretty much in the same conditions"? Africans in say, my grandfather's day walked hundreds of miles from one city to another, farmed with hoes and cutlasses, were to a large extent illiterate, and had no centres of civilization whatsoever. Is this still the case?

    Explain yourself, O Zalachenko; which villages in africa have you been to that haven't changed since the beginning of "modern history (a rather spurious term)? Define modern history. Then define change.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • Amphipathic's picture

    The fact that (Sub-Saharan) Africa never developed written language speaks to the fact that it was never developed.

  • In reply to Amphipathic
    Anomanderis's picture

    Amphipathic:
    The fact that (Sub-Saharan) Africa never developed written language speaks to the fact that it was never developed.

    This statement shows a profound lack of history and the evolution of writing.

    Fact: Only ONE (or perhaps 2) culture ever developed written language, every other one absorbed or copied those two.

    Western Europe certainly never developed written language, does this imply that western Europe was also never developed?

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    Zalachenko's picture

    Anomanderis:
    Zalachenko:
    Anomanderis:
    Zalachenko:
    JeremyLinMVP:
    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.

    Seems like there are some racists in this thread.

    Read what he said, ''average African village today'', he didn't specify. You've given a single example, good job.

    Not racists, realists. This situation has been going on forever, do you seriously think it'll be considerably different in 60 years time?

    What's this? Forever? When did this forever start? in the 1600-1900s when europe was trawling africa for slaves? In the 19th - 20th centuries when Africa was colonially controlled? In the 50's and 60's when the leadership was skewed heavily by unnecessary western meddling in african politics?

    No seriously, define this "forever", please.

    It's not relevant to the topic, my point was that the situation in Africa has been pretty much been in the same conditions since the start of Modern History (even though it goes far before that) and it's highly unlikely it'll change - at least anytime soon.

    Dude, break it down, how do you mean "pretty much in the same conditions"? Africans in say, my grandfather's day walked hundreds of miles from one city to another, farmed with hoes and cutlasses, were to a large extent illiterate, and had no centres of civilization whatsoever. Is this still the case?

    Explain yourself, O Zalachenko; which villages in africa have you been to that haven't changed since the beginning of "modern history (a rather spurious term)? Define modern history. Then define change.

    Where's this hate coming from? I've spent a month a year for the last 3 helping a community in the west of Uganda, near the border with the Congo and it's not that different today - in regard to your example. No water within 2-3km, 1 ''school'' which we funded and helped building throughout 4 months, insecurity, diseases and lack of community spirit amongst the people, etc... It's a horrible situation and the worse part is that the surrounding villages aren't in any better conditions.

  • In reply to Zalachenko
    Anomanderis's picture

    Zalachenko:
    Anomanderis:
    Zalachenko:
    Anomanderis:
    Zalachenko:
    JeremyLinMVP:
    PetEng:
    Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.

    Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.

    Seems like there are some racists in this thread.

    Read what he said, ''average African village today'', he didn't specify. You've given a single example, good job.

    Not racists, realists. This situation has been going on forever, do you seriously think it'll be considerably different in 60 years time?

    What's this? Forever? When did this forever start? in the 1600-1900s when europe was trawling africa for slaves? In the 19th - 20th centuries when Africa was colonially controlled? In the 50's and 60's when the leadership was skewed heavily by unnecessary western meddling in african politics?

    No seriously, define this "forever", please.

    It's not relevant to the topic, my point was that the situation in Africa has been pretty much been in the same conditions since the start of Modern History (even though it goes far before that) and it's highly unlikely it'll change - at least anytime soon.

    Dude, break it down, how do you mean "pretty much in the same conditions"? Africans in say, my grandfather's day walked hundreds of miles from one city to another, farmed with hoes and cutlasses, were to a large extent illiterate, and had no centres of civilization whatsoever. Is this still the case?

    Explain yourself, O Zalachenko; which villages in africa have you been to that haven't changed since the beginning of "modern history (a rather spurious term)? Define modern history. Then define change.

    Where's this hate coming from? I've spent a month a year for the last 3 helping a community in the west of Uganda, near the border with the Congo and it's not that different today - in regard to your example. No water within 2-3km, 1 ''school'' which we funded and helped building throughout 4 months, insecurity, diseases and lack of community spirit amongst the people, etc... It's a horrible situation and the worse part is that the surrounding villages aren't in any better conditions.

    Right. So you know one village in a recently war torn country (Uganda). Did you get to the capital? Was the capital in the same state since the beginning of history? How about the population, are they the same as they were since the beginning of history? How did you get to that village, did you walk all the way from say - Egypt, or Libya, the closest non sub-saharan countries?

    Have you been to Serbia/Macedonia or even some parts of Russia? These are definitely not sub-saharan countries.

    There are towns in this country (US) which feel like they sprang out of the sixties. One village in Uganda doesn't make an entire sub-continent.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    Amphipathic's picture

    Anomanderis:
    Amphipathic:
    The fact that (Sub-Saharan) Africa never developed written language speaks to the fact that it was never developed.

    This statement shows a profound lack of history and the evolution of writing.

    Fact: Only ONE (or perhaps 2) culture ever developed written language, every other one absorbed or copied those two.

    Western Europe certainly never developed written language, does this imply that western Europe was also never developed?

    You are missing my point. A civilization cannot progress without a written form of communication. Oral tradition is not an ideal or generally feasible way of transmitting knowledge, so technology, philosophy, law, etc. progress very slowly, if at all.

  • In reply to Amphipathic
    Anomanderis's picture

    Amphipathic:
    Anomanderis:
    Amphipathic:
    The fact that (Sub-Saharan) Africa never developed written language speaks to the fact that it was never developed.

    This statement shows a profound lack of history and the evolution of writing.

    Fact: Only ONE (or perhaps 2) culture ever developed written language, every other one absorbed or copied those two.

    Western Europe certainly never developed written language, does this imply that western Europe was also never developed?

    You are missing my point. A civilization cannot progress without a written form of communication. Oral tradition is not an ideal or generally feasible way of transmitting knowledge, so technology, philosophy, law, etc. progress very slowly, if at all.

    I agree in part, development will be severely restricted without written communication. The fact that you use that as a reason for a lack of development in africa today leaves me rather.... fascinated. Are you saying Africans can't currently read and write in english or french? Are you saying africans are too backward to use pens and pencils and paper? Are you saying there are no paper mills in africa?

    Honestly, I don't understand what that has to do with this discussion at all.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Abdel
    Anomanderis's picture

    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:

    Sure they will. 120million+ Nigerians obviously live off the "white man". The oil in Gabon will magically dry out. The internal industries will disappear in a heartbeat. The farms will fail, the electrical power will cease, and all the banks and manufacturing will grind to a halt the moment the white man stopped,

    And who brought all of these things to africans? Did they developped all these by themselves or was it the white man?

    Anomanderis:

    How many Africans do you know? I insult you because you made a foolish remark, and because you have a history of making foolish remarks when Africans are concerned. Seriously, you think most Africans in this country live on welfare? How about Arabs in this country, do they all vote republican?

    Not sure how my remarks are foolish when it comes to africans when I'm only stating facts.

    Who cares how they were developed? Arabia didn't develop their own oil either, they needed the "white man" to assist with that, and one can argue that the Arab (okay, not the arab, but the middle-eastern indigenous tribes - persians, assyrians, turks, armenians) are some of the oldest civilizations known to mankind.

    Abdel. You're wrong. Accept it and stop trying to explain yourself away. You're ignorant about africa, embrace it.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    ChrisHansen's picture

    Anomanderis:
    Re-reading these posts makes me worry for wall street, the vast majority of you guys are Sarah Palin level dumb. DUMB. Africa is less developed that Rome 2000 years ago? By what standard is that statement made if I may ask? How are you measuring this "underdevelopment"?

    I'm just stunned, stunned. I thought this level of ignorance only existed in the backroads of the south.

    Honestly I can't tell if this is a troll or not but I'll give it a swing since this is some Grade-A brainwashed gender studies trust fund white chick from the suburbs liberalism here.

    How are we measuring development...you cannot be serious. The Romans had massive aqueducts that stretched hundreds of miles. They conquered most of the Mediterranean and Europe. They created a language that spawned many other languages we use today and the alphabet you use right now. They gave us the Colosseum which is 2 millenia old and still stands today and countless other architectural feats. They gave us running hot and cold water in homes as well as a sewer system 2,000 years ago, things which didn't appear in Europe again until the 1800s. They gave us the foundations of modern public law and governments (the Twelve Tables). They gave us some of the greatest leaders of all time like Julius and Augustus Caesar and Constantine. They gave us modern military tactics. They gave us western society you fucking imbecile, the type of government and life pretty much the whole world tries to emulate.

    How much of Africa has running water in homes? What about an empire spanning dozens of ethnic and religious groups united under one language or leader? A sophisticated government that can collect taxes and administer peaceful rule over thousands of miles? What are some African pieces of architecture that are still standing today after 2,000 years? What African pieces of technology do we use today?

    Today modern Africans stick sticks through their faces and burn people for being "witches." I would also challenge you to name a significant, relevant African (as in not based off of European or other technology) invention that we use today. Ever. Every single piece of advanced technology in Africa is because of outside influence. Literally everything.

    Oh and colonialism was the greatest thing to ever happen to Africa since Europeans brought them, you know, civilization. The funniest part of African "history" is Liberia where a bunch of slaves decided they didn't like living in America with food, roads, technology, etc. anymore, and decided to go back to Africa and start Liberia (using a Western (American) flag, with a country whose name has a Latin root, and whose official language is English), which inevitably ended in two civil wars. The Balkans and parts of Asia got just as fucked up as Africa and they aren't killing each other anymore.

    And do you remember the part in world history where African tribal leaders rounded other tribes up to sell them to the Europeans? Or did your professor conveniently skip that part?

    You can fix poverty. You can fix political strife. You cannot fix a 20% IQ gap between races. It's no coincidence that the most advanced country in Africa is also the whitest--South Africa.

    Google "Charles Darwin Africans quote." It is incorrectly attributed to Darwin but the message is perfectly clear.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    Amphipathic's picture

    Anomanderis:
    Amphipathic:
    Anomanderis:
    Amphipathic:
    The fact that (Sub-Saharan) Africa never developed written language speaks to the fact that it was never developed.

    This statement shows a profound lack of history and the evolution of writing.

    Fact: Only ONE (or perhaps 2) culture ever developed written language, every other one absorbed or copied those two.

    Western Europe certainly never developed written language, does this imply that western Europe was also never developed?

    You are missing my point. A civilization cannot progress without a written form of communication. Oral tradition is not an ideal or generally feasible way of transmitting knowledge, so technology, philosophy, law, etc. progress very slowly, if at all.

    I agree in part, development will be severely restricted without written communication. The fact that you use that as a reason for a lack of development in africa today leaves me rather.... fascinated. Are you saying Africans can't currently read and write in english or french? Are you saying africans are too backward to use pens and pencils and paper? Are you saying there are no paper mills in africa?

    Honestly, I don't understand what that has to do with this discussion at all.

    Straw man much? Let me break it down for you, and we can see if YOU know how to read.

    A: Africa (prior to colonization by Europeans) did not have written language.
    B: A society without written language cannot progress without outside intervention, and will be undeveloped relative to societies with written language.

    Conclusion: Africa (prior to colonization by Europeans) was undeveloped (relative to the rest of the world).

    Your multicultural crap is not gonna fly, sorry.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    Abdel's picture

    Anomanderis:
    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:

    Sure they will. 120million+ Nigerians obviously live off the "white man". The oil in Gabon will magically dry out. The internal industries will disappear in a heartbeat. The farms will fail, the electrical power will cease, and all the banks and manufacturing will grind to a halt the moment the white man stopped,

    And who brought all of these things to africans? Did they developped all these by themselves or was it the white man?

    Anomanderis:

    How many Africans do you know? I insult you because you made a foolish remark, and because you have a history of making foolish remarks when Africans are concerned. Seriously, you think most Africans in this country live on welfare? How about Arabs in this country, do they all vote republican?

    Not sure how my remarks are foolish when it comes to africans when I'm only stating facts.

    Who cares how they were developed? Arabia didn't develop their own oil either, they needed the "white man" to assist with that, and one can argue that the Arab (okay, not the arab, but the middle-eastern indigenous tribes - persians, assyrians, turks, armenians) are some of the oldest civilizations known to mankind.

    Abdel. You're wrong. Accept it and stop trying to explain yourself away. You're ignorant about africa, embrace it.

    Who cares? Well, I do.

    As far as for arabs, sure, since islam came, it slowed us down alot over time. But at the end of the day, we provided some advancements to humanity (writing, algebra, advancement in many science fields etc etc..)

    Now tell me what are the concrete contributions of africans to humanity at any point in time? lol

  • In reply to ChrisHansen
    Anomanderis's picture

    FusRoDah:
    Anomanderis:
    Re-reading these posts makes me worry for wall street, the vast majority of you guys are Sarah Palin level dumb. DUMB. Africa is less developed that Rome 2000 years ago? By what standard is that statement made if I may ask? How are you measuring this "underdevelopment"?

    I'm just stunned, stunned. I thought this level of ignorance only existed in the backroads of the south.

    Honestly I can't tell if this is a troll or not but I'll give it a swing since this is some Grade-A brainwashed gender studies trust fund white chick from the suburbs liberalism here.

    How are we measuring development...you cannot be serious. The Romans had massive aqueducts that stretched hundreds of miles. They conquered most of the Mediterranean and Europe. They created a language that spawned many other languages we use today and the alphabet you use right now. They gave us the Colosseum which is 2 millenia old and still stands today and countless other architectural feats. They gave us running hot and cold water in homes as well as a sewer system 2,000 years ago, things which didn't appear in Europe again until the 1800s. They gave us the foundations of modern public law and governments (the Twelve Tables). They gave us some of the greatest leaders of all time like Julius and Augustus Caesar and Constantine. They gave us modern military tactics. They gave us modern western society you fucking imbecile.

    How much of Africa has running water in homes? What about an empire spanning dozens of ethnic and religious groups united under one language or leader? A sophisticated government that can collect taxes and administer peaceful rule over thousands of miles? What are some African pieces of architecture that are still standing today after 2,000 years? What African pieces of technology do we use today?

    Today modern Africans stick sticks through their faces and burn people for being "witches." I would also challenge you to name a significant, relevant African (as in not based off of European or other technology) invention that we use today. Ever. Every single piece of advanced technology in Africa is because of outside influence. Literally everything.

    Oh and colonialism was the greatest thing to ever happen to Africa since Europeans brought them, you know, civilization. The funniest part of African "history" is Liberia where a bunch of slaves decided they didn't like living in America with food, roads, technology, etc. anymore, and decided to go back to Africa and start Liberia (using a Western (American) flag, with a country whose name has a Latin root, and whose official language is English), which inevitably ended in two civil wars. The Balkans and parts of Asia got just as fucked up as Africa and they aren't killing each other anymore.

    And do you remember the part in world history where African tribal leaders rounded other tribes up to sell them to the Europeans? Or did your professor conveniently skip that part?

    You can fix poverty. You can fix political strife. You cannot fix a 20% IQ gap between races. It's no coincidence that the most advanced country in Africa is also the whitest--South Africa.

    Google "Charles Darwin Africans quote." It is incorrectly attributed to Darwin but the message is perfectly clear.

    Jesus wept.

    I ask you - how many roman homes had this running water? How many? They built aqueducts - how many dams have been built in Africa?
    Romans did NOT create a language, so that's plain tosh. If they conquered places, then their language will be spoken there, just like english and french are spoken in most african nations. Law and governments- mostly copied from the greeks, same as most of roman technology. I'll agree with the military tactics.

    I agree about colonialism being the driving force of civilization - you could argue the same about western europe when they were colonized by rome, which was also heavily influenced by greece and persia.

    IQ is extremely culturally biased, this has been proven over and over again.

    The most advanced countries in the world are also white countries, though Asians constantly outscore whites in IQ tests, can you explain that? Fool.

    Dude, you're an idiot and you don't know diddly. Ignorant fool. Africa has it's problems, nobody is debating that, but saying it's never going to change is foolish. Foolish.

    Darwin died in 1882 - did all knowledge end at his death?

    But the world is changing once again, we'll see what we end up with in the next 10/20 years.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Amphipathic
    Anomanderis's picture

    Amphipathic:
    Anomanderis:
    Amphipathic:
    Anomanderis:
    Amphipathic:
    The fact that (Sub-Saharan) Africa never developed written language speaks to the fact that it was never developed.

    This statement shows a profound lack of history and the evolution of writing.

    Fact: Only ONE (or perhaps 2) culture ever developed written language, every other one absorbed or copied those two.

    Western Europe certainly never developed written language, does this imply that western Europe was also never developed?

    You are missing my point. A civilization cannot progress without a written form of communication. Oral tradition is not an ideal or generally feasible way of transmitting knowledge, so technology, philosophy, law, etc. progress very slowly, if at all.

    I agree in part, development will be severely restricted without written communication. The fact that you use that as a reason for a lack of development in africa today leaves me rather.... fascinated. Are you saying Africans can't currently read and write in english or french? Are you saying africans are too backward to use pens and pencils and paper? Are you saying there are no paper mills in africa?

    Honestly, I don't understand what that has to do with this discussion at all.

    Straw man much? Let me break it down for you, and we can see if YOU know how to read.

    A: Africa (prior to colonization by Europeans) did not have written language.
    B: A society without written language cannot progress without outside intervention, and will be undeveloped relative to societies with written language.

    Conclusion: Africa (prior to colonization by Europeans) was undeveloped (relative to the rest of the world).

    Your multicultural crap is not gonna fly, sorry.

    I agree.

    Western Europe before colonization by Rome was also underdeveloped compared to the Mediterranean and Asia. Big deal. They also couldn't read or write for the most part, even without the massive geographical boundaries that isolated Africa.

    Civilization is NOT developed in a vacuum.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to ChrisHansen
    Anomanderis's picture

    FusRoDah:
    Anomanderis:
    Re-reading these posts makes me worry for wall street, the vast majority of you guys are Sarah Palin level dumb. DUMB. Africa is less developed that Rome 2000 years ago? By what standard is that statement made if I may ask? How are you measuring this "underdevelopment"?

    I'm just stunned, stunned. I thought this level of ignorance only existed in the backroads of the south.

    Today modern Africans stick sticks through their faces and burn people for being "witches." I would also challenge you to name a significant, relevant African (as in not based off of European or other technology) invention that we use today. Ever. Every single piece of advanced technology in Africa is because of outside influence. Literally everything.

    And do you remember the part in world history where African tribal leaders rounded other tribes up to sell them to the Europeans? Or did your professor conveniently skip that part?

    I like this one.Sticks through their faces? hahaha. You mean like piercings right? I'm sure there are some tattooing as well

    Oh - I never mentioned the slave trade as a problem for Africa. it happened, life goes on.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to ChrisHansen
    Anomanderis's picture

    FusRoDah:
    ^agreed abdel, Islam sucks but we need to give the Arabs credit where credit is due, mainly algebra

    there are 4 cultures/races/societies that have never contributed anything to the world:

    1. sub saharan africans
    2. aboriginal australians
    3. "pacific islanders"
    4. native americans

    Why stop today? If this poll had been taken say 1500 years ago, western europeans would have been on this list.

    Incas were native americans, I think they did pretty well.

    Jesus, there's a nice racial twist on this forum right now. Stormfront much?

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    Abdel's picture

    Anomanderis:

    Why stop today? If this poll had been taken say 1500 years ago, western europeans would have been on this list.

    Incas were native americans, I think they did pretty well.

    Jesus, there's a nice racial twist on this forum right now. Stormfront much?

    I'm still waiting bro:

    ''Now tell me what are the concrete contributions of africans to humanity at any point in time? ''

  • In reply to Abdel
    Anomanderis's picture

    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:
    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:

    Sure they will. 120million+ Nigerians obviously live off the "white man". The oil in Gabon will magically dry out. The internal industries will disappear in a heartbeat. The farms will fail, the electrical power will cease, and all the banks and manufacturing will grind to a halt the moment the white man stopped,

    And who brought all of these things to africans? Did they developped all these by themselves or was it the white man?

    Anomanderis:

    How many Africans do you know? I insult you because you made a foolish remark, and because you have a history of making foolish remarks when Africans are concerned. Seriously, you think most Africans in this country live on welfare? How about Arabs in this country, do they all vote republican?

    Not sure how my remarks are foolish when it comes to africans when I'm only stating facts.

    Who cares how they were developed? Arabia didn't develop their own oil either, they needed the "white man" to assist with that, and one can argue that the Arab (okay, not the arab, but the middle-eastern indigenous tribes - persians, assyrians, turks, armenians) are some of the oldest civilizations known to mankind.

    Abdel. You're wrong. Accept it and stop trying to explain yourself away. You're ignorant about africa, embrace it.

    Who cares? Well, I do.

    As far as for arabs, sure, since islam came, it slowed us down alot over time. But at the end of the day, we provided some advancements to humanity (writing, algebra, advancement in many science fields etc etc..)

    Now tell me what are the concrete contributions of africans to humanity at any point in time? lol

    Really? The fact that Africa is in anyway comparable to Arabia at the moment (and yes, it is compared to other nations) is a clear sign of how quickly things can go pear-shaped. Africa hasn't been hooked up with the mainstream of human civilization anywhere as close as Arabia has. Arabia is bang in the middle of the fertile crescent, and you guys still fucked it up.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Abdel
    Anomanderis's picture

    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:

    Why stop today? If this poll had been taken say 1500 years ago, western europeans would have been on this list.

    Incas were native americans, I think they did pretty well.

    Jesus, there's a nice racial twist on this forum right now. Stormfront much?

    I'm still waiting bro:

    ''Now tell me what are the concrete contributions of africans to humanity at any point in time? ''

    Hang on - has history ended?

    Why not wait until everything has ended. We haven't done it yet != We can't do it.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    Abdel's picture

    Anomanderis:
    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:

    Why stop today? If this poll had been taken say 1500 years ago, western europeans would have been on this list.

    Incas were native americans, I think they did pretty well.

    Jesus, there's a nice racial twist on this forum right now. Stormfront much?

    I'm still waiting bro:

    ''Now tell me what are the concrete contributions of africans to humanity at any point in time? ''

    Hang on - has history ended?

    Why not wait until everything has ended. We haven't done it yet != We can't do it.

    In other words, during the thousands of past years, they contributed ZERO. I mean at least other races had their glory days.

    Anyhow, the end of the world is scheduled on december 21st 2012, they better hurry up mayne. lol

  • In reply to Abdel
    Anomanderis's picture

    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:
    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:

    Why stop today? If this poll had been taken say 1500 years ago, western europeans would have been on this list.

    Incas were native americans, I think they did pretty well.

    Jesus, there's a nice racial twist on this forum right now. Stormfront much?

    I'm still waiting bro:

    ''Now tell me what are the concrete contributions of africans to humanity at any point in time? ''

    Hang on - has history ended?

    Why not wait until everything has ended. We haven't done it yet != We can't do it.

    In other words, during the thousands of past years, they contributed ZERO. I mean at least other races had their glory days.

    Anyhow, the end of the world is scheduled on december 21st 2012, they better hurry up mayne. lol

    Do you understand how truly diverse africa is? Do you understand how many collections of distinct nations exist in that land mass? Trust me, neither asia minor nor europe has even come close to understanding this. Before you can build any reasonable civilization, you MUST have a critical mass of people, with a steady food/water supply. This never existed in africa until European colonization. If we will compare achievements, let us at least have a baseline for such comparison.

    But regardless, the idea and the thought that Africa is less developed that Rome was 2000 years ago is bullshit. Nonsense.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Abdel
    Abdel's picture

    Abdel:

    In other words, during the thousands of past years, they contributed ZERO.

    o and the concept of zero was invented by Arabs. lol

  • HappyThanksgiving's picture

    Patrick can some of these posters get banned? Seems like a Klan rally is going on in this thread. This is wallstreetoasis, not stormfront.com

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    ChrisHansen's picture

    Anomanderis:
    I ask you - how many roman homes had this running water? How many? They built aqueducts - how many dams have been built in Africa?

    Uhh, like 50% had running water dude. How many dams have been built in Africa, lol, what a hilariously ignorant statement. Who developed those dams? Who gave the Africans the technology to build huge permanent concrete structures that can hold back massive lakes and rivers while powering entire towns and cities with hydroelectric turbines?

    Anomanderis:
    Romans did NOT create a language, so that's plain tosh.

    Explain yourself.

    Anomanderis:
    If they conquered places, then their language will be spoken there, just like english and french are spoken in most african nations.

    Yeah, so because nowhere besides Africa speaks African languages, that proves they are too disorganized to conquer new territories, something pretty much every other civilization in history did.

    Anomanderis:
    Law and governments- mostly copied from the greeks

    Trivial detail, still white people, still the foundations of western civilization.

    Anomanderis:
    IQ is extremely culturally biased, this has been proven over and over again.

    Typical apologist drivel. It is no coincidence the places/cultures/races that score highest have the best quality of life. Liberals like to say "everyone is equal" but ignore every objective statistical measure and use emotion. You know IQ has a meaning, more than any other bullshit reason some communist professor can come up with.

    Anomanderis:
    The most advanced countries in the world are also white countries, though Asians constantly outscore whites in IQ tests, can you explain that? Fool.

    That's because Asians are smarter academically than whites, duh. Asian countries are good copiers, not good innovators (but they had plenty of incredible inventions and accomplishments). Population problems aside, white and asian countries are pretty much the same (Japan, South Korea, etc.)

    Anomanderis:
    Dude, you're an idiot and you don't know diddly. Ignorant fool.

    Yawn.

    Anomanderis:
    Africa has it's problems, nobody is debating that, but saying it's never going to change is foolish. Foolish.

    Civil war then, civil war now.

    Anomanderis:
    But the world is changing once again, we'll see what we end up with in the next 10/20 years.

    Africa will still be a total shithole, I guarantee it.

    And you didn't address my point about inventions.

  • bfin's picture

    ITT we have someone who has never been to Africa, who hasn't taken a shower without running water, who hasn't had to shit in a hole in the ground and wipe there ass with newspaper, who hasn't seen a vigilant group in broad daylight kill someone chop their legs and arms off and burn them in the middle of the road, who hasn't seen the former Vice President live in a CASTLE with armed guards surrounding it and have multiple brand new Mercedes. ITT we have a retard. Traveling to Africa doesn't mean you stayed in a hotel in the capital of the country you visited where you feel as though you are still in America. It's just like saying you've seen all of Mexico when you visited Cancun. Travel to "real" Africa and you will see that many places are so far behind its unbelievable..maybe not the Romans but its pretty damn close.

    Also what does advancement have to do with IQ? IQ=advance. How about you try again?

    And, yes I've traveled to Africa for more than just a few days.

    Africa may change one day, but it will take something extremely dramatic.

    Notice zero name calling.

    The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

    WSO is not your personal search function.

  • In reply to Abdel
    Anomanderis's picture

    Abdel:
    Abdel:

    In other words, during the thousands of past years, they contributed ZERO.

    o and the concept of zero was invented by Arabs. lol

    Right. But today they contribute what?

    And again, zero wasn't invented by Arabs, Arabs are a tribe of barbarians that overran the middle east. Zero was invented by native middle-eastern civilizations. All arabs have invented is Islam.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Abdel
    Anomanderis's picture

    Abdel:
    Anomanderis:

    Do you understand how truly diverse africa is? Do you understand how many collections of distinct nations exist in that land mass? Trust me, neither asia minor nor europe has even come close to understanding this. Before you can build any reasonable civilization, you MUST have a critical mass of people, with a steady food/water supply. This never existed in africa until European colonization. If we will compare achievements, let us at least have a baseline for such comparison.

    But regardless, the idea and the thought that Africa is less developed that Rome was 2000 years ago is bullshit. Nonsense.

    I got a simple and serious question to ask you. How can you explain that africans were the easiest people to enslave in ALL human history?

    I want a serious answer.

    Abdel, you need to show that you have at least the slightest level of intellect.

    Africans were the easiest people to enslave compared to who? Tell me, what collection of people in this world haven't suffered one form of enslavement or another?

    Africans are simply victims of the most recent "acceptable" slavery.

    Nothing new here mate, move along.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to bfin
    Anomanderis's picture

    blackfinancier:
    ITT we have someone who has never been to Africa, who hasn't taken a shower without running water, who hasn't had to shit in a hole in the ground and wipe there ass with newspaper, who hasn't seen a vigilant group in broad daylight kill someone chop their legs and arms off and burn them in the middle of the road, who hasn't seen the former Vice President live in a CASTLE with armed guards surrounding it and have multiple brand new Mercedes. ITT we have a retard. Traveling to Africa doesn't mean you stayed in a hotel in the capital of the country you visited where you feel as though you are still in America. It's just like saying you've seen all of Mexico when you visited Cancun. Travel to "real" Africa and you will see that many places are so far behind its unbelievable..maybe not the Romans but its pretty damn close.

    Also what does advancement have to do with IQ? IQ=advance. How about you try again?

    And, yes I've traveled to Africa for more than just a few days.

    Africa may change one day, but it will take something extremely dramatic.

    Notice zero name calling.

    Shitting in a hole in the ground happens in more places than africa, try some of the arabian/asian villages.

    Banditry isn't solely an african phenomenom either.

    Outside a war zone, nobody is going to chop off your limbs and burn them in broad daylight, that requires some major social upheaval. They may do it at night though.

    Many places in africa are behind, sure. Many places in Asia are also behind, I don't hear the unified condemnation of Asia.

    Africa has many countries, some are ahead of others, it will SHOCK you how much more advanced parts of africa is than others.

    IQ is partly genetic and partly social conditioning. It's also culturally skewed.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Abdel
    Anomanderis's picture

    Abdel:
    @Anomanderis - ok let me give you an easiest question to answer:

    why black people cain't swim? lol

    Whenever I hit the swimming pool, they're scared shitless to go where the waters deep.

    On a more serious note, Congo has now a spacial program. I feel encouraged to see things like these. Maybe you are right, maybe we should give them some more time.

    How many black people do you know? I know loads of black people who can swim.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    WSJ123's picture

    Anomanderis:
    Abdel:
    Abdel:

    In other words, during the thousands of past years, they contributed ZERO.

    o and the concept of zero was invented by Arabs. lol

    Right. But today they contribute what?

    And again, zero wasn't invented by Arabs, Arabs are a tribe of barbarians that overran the middle east. Zero was invented by native middle-eastern civilizations. All arabs have invented is Islam.

    They created a giant empire in a largely desolate area that had been nearly entirely tribal in the past. They founded great monuments throughout the Middle East and in Israel today. They furthered philosophy and the arts during the dark ages. And you, my friend, contribute nothing to society but your ignorance and your bigotry.

  • jec's picture

    Africa may be a shithole but most of it is not less developed than the roman empire. If you compare ppp gdp per capita, rome would fall in the bottom third of african countries.

  • In reply to Anomanderis
    bfin's picture

    Anomanderis:
    blackfinancier:
    ITT we have someone who has never been to Africa, who hasn't taken a shower without running water, who hasn't had to shit in a hole in the ground and wipe there ass with newspaper, who hasn't seen a vigilant group in broad daylight kill someone chop their legs and arms off and burn them in the middle of the road, who hasn't seen the former Vice President live in a CASTLE with armed guards surrounding it and have multiple brand new Mercedes. ITT we have a retard. Traveling to Africa doesn't mean you stayed in a hotel in the capital of the country you visited where you feel as though you are still in America. It's just like saying you've seen all of Mexico when you visited Cancun. Travel to "real" Africa and you will see that many places are so far behind its unbelievable..maybe not the Romans but its pretty damn close.

    Also what does advancement have to do with IQ? IQ=advance. How about you try again?

    And, yes I've traveled to Africa for more than just a few days.

    Africa may change one day, but it will take something extremely dramatic.

    Notice zero name calling.

    Shitting in a hole in the ground happens in more places than africa, try some of the arabian/asian villages.

    Banditry isn't solely an african phenomenom either.

    Outside a war zone, nobody is going to chop off your limbs and burn them in broad daylight, that requires some major social upheaval. They may do it at night though.

    Many places in africa are behind, sure. Many places in Asia are also behind, I don't hear the unified condemnation of Asia.

    Africa has many countries, some are ahead of others, it will SHOCK you how much more advanced parts of africa is than others.

    IQ is partly genetic and partly social conditioning. It's also culturally skewed.

    ...It isn't the fact that it is happening in more places than Africa it's the fact that its happening in the MAJORITY of Africa. Where I was wasn't a war zone but good try. Have you actually been to Africa in a non tourist function?

    The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

    WSO is not your personal search function.

  • Amphipathic's picture

    The most sad thing about this thread is that the revisionist PC historians do more harm to Africa than racist white folk in America. Africa can't be fixed until we have a honest discussion of why it is so behind. But whatever, if folks want to screw over Africa's future so they can feel better about their race, go right ahead.

  • Downeasta's picture

    My God....some of these posts are ridiculous.

    No, the entire continent is not a bunch of spear-waving, drum-banging tribals.
    That being said, as a continent, they are certainly faring the worst, compared to the rest. Why is that?

    Let me address one comment that made me laugh a bit:
    "I ask you - how many roman homes had this running water? How many? They built aqueducts - how many dams have been built in Africa?
    Romans did NOT create a language, so that's plain tosh. If they conquered places, then their language will be spoken there, just like english and french are spoken in most african nations. Law and governments- mostly copied from the greeks, same as most of roman technology. I'll agree with the military tactics."

    Well, buddy...all Romans had access to running water. No, the water didn't always flow directly into their houses, but yes, the entire population had pretty reliable access to drinking water. That is not the case with the majority of Africa.

    Comparing the Roman aquaducts to building dams in Africa is foolish; Africa wouldn't benefit from dams, as water is in pretty scarce supply, and damming an entire river would severely detriment the people downstream. However, they would benefit from aquaducts..why haven't they made any? Just something to consider.

    You also bring up the point about Rome conquering other nations and forcing them to speak their language, and how English and French (You forgot Dutch and Afrikaans, btw) are spoken in most African countries. So, why aren't any African languages spoken elsewhere in the world? Following your logic, it would be because African nations have never conquered and held nations on another continent. Why is that? Common sense would tell us that it is because the other nations are more advanced, politically and technologically.

    I agree that IQ testing can have a cultural bias, but why hasn't Africa developed its own equivalent? It's entirely possible that the native population could excel in fields not covered in a standard IQ test.

    Again, I'm not assigning any sort of value judgments to Africa as a whole, merely stating facts and following logic.

  • In reply to WSJ123
    Anomanderis's picture

    WSJ123:
    Anomanderis:
    Abdel:
    Abdel:

    In other words, during the thousands of past years, they contributed ZERO.

    o and the concept of zero was invented by Arabs. lol

    Right. But today they contribute what?

    And again, zero wasn't invented by Arabs, Arabs are a tribe of barbarians that overran the middle east. Zero was invented by native middle-eastern civilizations. All arabs have invented is Islam.

    They created a giant empire in a largely desolate area that had been nearly entirely tribal in the past. They founded great monuments throughout the Middle East and in Israel today. They furthered philosophy and the arts during the dark ages. And you, my friend, contribute nothing to society but your ignorance and your bigotry.

    My bigotry? Mine?

    Are you fucking kidding me mate?

    I repeat - the majority of the (non-religious) monuments in the middle east were built by persians and babylonians pre-arabic dominance. Ignorance is not understanding the difference. Bigotry is well in full display on this thread, and it's not from me.

    Fool.

    But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

    And Rhaegar died.

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