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Will you ever get rich?

It used to be an easy question to answer if you were headed to Wall Street.

Not so much today...

Yet another look at America's growing wealth gap doesn't instill confidence.

In fact, if you stop to actually read the article you may wind up looking in the mirror and asking yourself some difficult questions with regards to your goals, aspirations and ambitions.

Proceed... with caution.

Very disturbingly the poorest 90 % of Americans make an average of $31,244 a year. While the richest 1% make a hardly inspiring $1.1 million plus.

Two Very Disturbing Extrapolations

1) $31,244 is a very humble amount of money. It is a very humble amount of money if you are a single person in their 20's living in a studio apartment in a not-so-terrific urban neighborhood. Taking into account this must read Zero Hedge article, (assist to VTech Forever on that one) we can safely say that the majority of today's middle class...really is poor. For an average of ~$30K to apply to 90% of the population (i.e. ~270,000,000 people) there has to be an anchor of dead weight pulling down the honest hardworking sub-six figure crowd subsidizing them.

But who cares...we are the elite,right?

Let us examine...

2) $1.1 million dollars is a nice chunk of change. Let's be clear. A mil definitely does not buy you what it once did. But it's still a nice number...

However...

If the top %1 of Americans (i.e. 3,000,000) make a mil...how discrepant is that figure, really?

Considering how many F50-1000 bosses make a lot more, considering the billionaires and media megastars involved...how many people are actually making that much?

Isn't it highly likely that the "typical Wall Street stiff making $400K/year" is the caboose pulling down this party wagon?

Isn't it actually becoming a reality that in the top 1%, the monkeys and the chimps are the anchor babies making the disgusting discrepancy seem more paletteable in this sort of analysis?

Tell me, monkeys...

What do these figures tell you?

Then think about it and answer honestly...

Will you ever really be rich or will you be paying someone else's free lunch so the real %1 do not have to?

Comments (353)

  • TNA's picture

    ^^^^^

    Booyah

    Yeah, how do you stop people from leaving or not working as hard????????

    HOW DO YOU STOP THEM, I am waiting to hear it.

  • In reply to TNA
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    ANT:
    I support the bottom two things.

    I will also chime in that if we switch to the FairTax model, a National Property Tax- which only covers military, state, and defense spending- with the VAT covering everything else- would also be reasonable.

    If you own $1 Billion worth of oil fields, aren't you happy they're in the US and not, say, Libya right now? Keeping those assets safe costs something- military and state spending.

  • txjustin's picture

    I agree with a lot you said with the exception of your tax reform opinion. I am more of a Fair Tax kinda guy.

  • LIBOR's picture

    ANT,

    Today's rant of yours reminds me of this song from 2007.

    Also, I love your quote from before about Kleenex and tampons.

  • In reply to IlliniProgrammer
    monkeysama's picture

    IlliniProgrammer:
    monkeysama:
    txjustin:
    Monkeysama, what do you suggest specifically? I'm genuinely curious.

    The first thing we need to do is change the rhetoric in this country. Anyone who can count without having to use their fingers knows that something is terribly, terribly wrong.

    Second, we need tax reform. We need a tax based on wealth, not income. This would encourage spending while also apportioning the amount of tax to those who could best afford it. It also wouldn't distinguish between capital gains tax (interest earned income) and working income. The tax would be apportioned based upon the Gini coefficient - the more unequal society became the more the wealthy would need to pay. Tax brackets would go all the way to the top and be as smooth as possible. None of this top tax bracket at 250k bullshit.

    Third we need budgetary reform. Congress sets a budget at the beginning of every year, a week before tax day, and everyone has to pay according to their current wealth. If deficit spending is needed or unavoidable the Federal Reserve would make an announcement and emergency spending would be used to cover the shortfall. If the deficit isn't balanced by the time of the next year's budget every congressmen is recalled and general elections are in place for election to office the following month. None of the current sitting congressmen are ever allowed to hold public office again.

    Fourth we need corruption reform. Every federally elected public official gets the median wage of a citizen of the country, for so long as they are in public office. They are not allowed to accept money from any outside source after they have been in office and they are not allowed to accept any money from outside sources for 2 years before being elected. Sound harsh? It is. No one will ever run for office again you say? I doubt it. We have too many people who want to milk the tit of the public trust at the expense of the general welfare as it is. We can find 435 power hungry publicity hounds by throwing a rock in times square.

    Let's do those things for starters.


    So what happens when all of the rich people move to the Bahamas or the Cayman Islands or Brazil and take most of their wealth with them?

    ALL. Every single last one of them is going to leave? I somehow doubt it. How many people would flock to this country who see that the middle class is growing and it is worthwhile to be a working American again? Somehow I don't think this enters into your calculus.

    If we could shave off .25 percent of long term GDP in this country for a 20 percent rise in the median wage it would be a trade worth taking. If, I as the benign emperor of the universe, could make the median wage in this country rise to 40k and 100 billionaires left I doubt I would lose much sleep at night.

  • In reply to TNA
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    ANT:
    ^^^^^

    Booyah

    Yeah, how do you stop people from leaving or not working as hard????????

    HOW DO YOU STOP THEM, I am waiting to hear it.

    Well,you do it by playing fair and reasonable and emphasizing the value of the state. People won't leave over a 45% marginal tax rate. Given that it is not the 1950s where the only states not entirely destroyed by WWII are communist, however, I don't think most rich Americans would tolerate a 90% marginal tax rate. I think most of them would just leave.

  • TNA's picture

    ALL. Every single last one of them is going to leave? I somehow doubt it. How many people would flock to this country who see that the middle class is growing and it is worthwhile to be a working American again? Somehow I don't think this enters into your calculus.

    I love that statement. If I am being rich and singled out and raped do you think I am going to give a shit.

    You are dogging the question.

    HOW ARE YOU GOING TO STOP PEOPLE?

    Are you?

    Are you going to allow money to go overseas?

    Your thesis also relies on people not pissing that money away. Take a look at lottery winners. They got a ton of money and most are broke right now.

  • In reply to happypantsmcgee
    monkeysama's picture

    happypantsmcgee:
    Monkeysama, it is hilarious to me that you have turned your way of thinking around so much in the past few months.

    I blame ANT for emboldening me.

  • TNA's picture

    45% TAX RATE!!!!!!

    Fuck that dude. At 45% I stop working hard and start looking to move and move if possible.

    I would renounce my citizenship at 45% and piss on the flag. America doesn't exist in my heart at 45%.

    ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!!

    OMG

    45%

    AAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

  • TNA's picture

    I am moving to China or India. You talk to people over there about building wealth and they understand. In America if isn't fair unless you have Air Jordans and an X5.

    My people are brown and yellow. Cannot handle this shit anymore.

  • In reply to TNA
    monkeysama's picture

    ANT:
    ALL. Every single last one of them is going to leave? I somehow doubt it. How many people would flock to this country who see that the middle class is growing and it is worthwhile to be a working American again? Somehow I don't think this enters into your calculus.

    I love that statement. If I am being rich and singled out and raped do you think I am going to give a shit.

    You are dogging the question.

    HOW ARE YOU GOING TO STOP PEOPLE?

    Are you?

    Are you going to allow money to go overseas?

    Your thesis also relies on people not pissing that money away. Take a look at lottery winners. They got a ton of money and most are broke right now.

    I'm saying "How are you going to stop people from leaving?" is the wrong question. If I can raise the median wage by 10k and 10 billionaires get huffy and move to Singapore, I don't give a shit. So long as I can raise the standard of living for 90 percent of Americans I would be more than willing to raise taxes on the wealthy.

  • In reply to TNA
    monkeysama's picture

    ANT:
    I am moving to China or India. You talk to people over there about building wealth and they understand. In America if isn't fair unless you have Air Jordans and an X5.

    My people are brown and yellow. Cannot handle this shit anymore.

    Hahaha....they would eat you alive.

  • In reply to monkeysama
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    monkeysama:
    ALL. Every single last one of them is going to leave? I somehow doubt it. How many people would flock to this country who see that the middle class is growing and it is worthwhile to be a working American again? Somehow I don't think this enters into your calculus.

    None of them would have money, they would compete against US workers for nonexistant jobs that left with the global rich, and the US would experience a much milder version of the transformation that happened to Zimbabwe once Mugabe went socialist. The rich white people left when he took their land, and the country went from the breadbasket of Africa to a total mess. Some of it had to do with corruption, which I'll discount here, but a lot of it also had to do with wealth distribution. When rich people leave, countries suffer.

    If we could shave off .25 percent of long term GDP in this country for a 20 percent rise in the median wage it would be a trade worth taking. If, I as the benign emperor of the universe, could make the median wage in this country rise to 40k and 100 billionaires left I doubt I would lose much sleep at night.

    We'd really be talking about moving towards negative GDP growth for a number of years for that coercive of a move. I really think we'd be talking about 70-80% of the rich people leaving if things got bad enough (the equivalent of 75%+ marginal tax rates.)

    Expect a permanent halving of GDP growth and probably a loss of a minimum of 20% of GDP over ten years for that- and perhaps a situation at least half as bad as Zimbabwe- perhaps an 80% loss in GDP- if enough rich people leave. Under more extreme socialism, everyone shares the suffering.

  • In reply to TNA
    happypantsmcgee's picture

    ANT:
    My people are brown and yellow. Cannot handle this shit anymore.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLslKUp04DY

    If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

  • In reply to TNA
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    ANT:
    45% TAX RATE!!!!!!

    Fuck that dude. At 45% I stop working hard and start looking to move and move if possible.

    I would renounce my citizenship at 45% and piss on the flag. America doesn't exist in my heart at 45%.

    ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!!

    OMG

    45%

    AAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


    Anthony, that's fine. You can leave. I really like this country. I'll stick it out until at least 55%, then it gets a little iffy. I'm gone at 75%, though.

    Most people will stay until they become convinced that tax rates are "unfair." 45% isn't unfair- it's below what we had under Reagan. Once we get above the Carter tax schedule, though, this is no longer America. I'm heading for a country that's friendlier to smart folks willing to work hard.

  • In reply to monkeysama
    TNA's picture

    monkeysama:
    ANT:
    I am moving to China or India. You talk to people over there about building wealth and they understand. In America if isn't fair unless you have Air Jordans and an X5.

    My people are brown and yellow. Cannot handle this shit anymore.

    Hahaha....they would eat you alive.

    I date an Indian girl and her whole family thinks just like me. That is why Indian people and Chinese people utterly dominate.

    People who come from poor countries (not bullshit American poor, real poor) know how to work and save and appreciate this country.

    Fat, stupid, lazy "Americans" don't appreciate it anymore. They think they are owed something.

    Puke.

    You want to hang out with real Americans. Go to China town or Edison.

    These people have the spirit of America in their heart.

  • In reply to IlliniProgrammer
    TNA's picture

    IlliniProgrammer:
    ANT:
    45% TAX RATE!!!!!!

    Fuck that dude. At 45% I stop working hard and start looking to move and move if possible.

    I would renounce my citizenship at 45% and piss on the flag. America doesn't exist in my heart at 45%.

    ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!!

    OMG

    45%

    AAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


    Anthony, that's fine. You can leave. I really like this country. I'll stick it out until at least 55%, then it gets a little iffy. I'm gone at 75%, though.

    Most people will stay until they become convinced that tax rates are "unfair." 45% isn't unfair- it's below what we had under Reagan. Once we get above the Carter tax schedule, though, this is no longer America. I'm heading for a country that's friendlier to smart folks willing to work hard.

    45%

    Are you talking Federal levels or Fed & State combined?

    Are you factoring sales tax, county/city tax, fees, fines, and all the other quasi tax?

    I pay friggin 45% all in tax right now.

  • In reply to IlliniProgrammer
    monkeysama's picture

    IlliniProgrammer:
    monkeysama:
    ALL. Every single last one of them is going to leave? I somehow doubt it. How many people would flock to this country who see that the middle class is growing and it is worthwhile to be a working American again? Somehow I don't think this enters into your calculus.

    None of them would have money, they would compete against US workers for nonexistant jobs that left with the global rich, and the US would experience a much milder version of the transformation that happened to Zimbabwe once Mugabe went socialist. The rich white people left when he took their land, and the country went from the breadbasket of Africa to a total mess. Some of it had to do with corruption, which I'll discount here, but a lot of it also had to do with wealth distribution. When rich people leave, countries suffer.

    If we could shave off .25 percent of long term GDP in this country for a 20 percent rise in the median wage it would be a trade worth taking. If, I as the benign emperor of the universe, could make the median wage in this country rise to 40k and 100 billionaires left I doubt I would lose much sleep at night.

    We'd really be talking about moving towards negative GDP growth for a number of years for that coercive of a move. I really think we'd be talking about 70-80% of the rich people leaving if things got bad enough (the equivalent of 75%+ marginal tax rates.)

    Expect a permanent halving of GDP growth and probably a loss of a minimum of 20% of GDP over ten years for that- and perhaps a situation at least half as bad as Zimbabwe- perhaps an 80% loss in GDP- if enough rich people leave. Under more extreme socialism, everyone shares the suffering.

    You think that I would just take rich people's land wholesale? You're seriously comparing me to Mugabe, that colossal dick head? I'm talking about raising the highest marginal tax rate to 5 mil maybe and raising taxes on the highest end by 5 percent. I'm talking about health care reform with a public pool for people if they get sick. I'm talking about banning private companies from providing nonbankruptcy protected student loans and getting the government to offer them again. I'm talking about school vouchers. I'm talking about supporting unions and putting punishments in place for corruption and deficit spending.

    I am NOT Mugabe.

  • TNA's picture

    Thank god in this country, the surest way to get kicked out of office is to even mention taxes.

  • TNA's picture

    LOL

    Illini just called you Mugabe. You didn't even get to be a cool dictator lol

  • In reply to TNA
    LIBOR's picture

    ANT:
    monkeysama:
    ANT:
    I am moving to China or India. You talk to people over there about building wealth and they understand. In America if isn't fair unless you have Air Jordans and an X5.

    My people are brown and yellow. Cannot handle this shit anymore.

    Hahaha....they would eat you alive.

    I date an Indian girl and her whole family thinks just like me. That is why Indian people and Chinese people utterly dominate.

    People who come from poor countries (not bullshit American poor, real poor) know how to work and save and appreciate this country.

    Fat, stupid, lazy "Americans" don't appreciate it anymore. They think they are owed something.

    Puke.

    You want to hang out with real Americans. Go to China town or Edison.

    These people have the spirit of America in their heart.

    Edison NJ?!?!
    HAHAHAHAHAHA
    Can't believe this is what its known for

  • TNA's picture

    Well it is known for delicious Indian food, being the largest deposit of Gold outside of Ft. Knox and people who know how to work hard and appreciate America!

  • TNA's picture

    LOL

    Thanks for adding some much needed levity in this thread.

    How you feeling? Better I hope.

  • monkeysama's picture

    Yeah, I got over my cold I think. Thanks.

  • IlliniProgrammer's picture

    In summary, I think there's three things people understand in this country in terms of taxes. And none of them are GINI taxes.

    1.) Property tax
    2.) Sales Tax
    3.) Income tax.

    If monkeysama wants to use a National Property Tax to *ONLY* fund the military, I think that makes a lot of sense. We can use a combination of sales tax and less progressive income tax to fund domestic spending. We need to spend some money on giving people opportunities (like an efficient means of giving people college educations), but not on subsidizing poor people for the sake of it.

    If we start redistributing wealth, the tax base is going to leave. But you can justify some taxes (like a national property tax) by saying that it costs money to keep Libya and Egypt out of the US via the US Military and the justice system.

    You can always get money out of rich people by justifying the cost. On top of that, you can get a little bit more by asking them to do their neighborly/patriotic duty. But you can't have coercive redistribution. IMHO, that starts to happen past 55% federal taxes with a 5% state tax allowance (with an itemized deduction for state tax paid.)

  • In reply to TNA
    LIBOR's picture

    ANT:
    Well it is known for delicious Indian food, being the largest deposit of Gold outside of Ft. Knox and people who know how to work hard and appreciate America!

    I grew up just south of Edison. We always knew it to be more

  • In reply to monkeysama
    PTS's picture

    monkeysama:
    IlliniProgrammer:
    ANT:
    GoodBread:
    ANT:
    If you have no skill or education and can only make 30k per year, what business do you have bringing a child into this world?

    With that kind of logic, the demographics of our country could get pretty ugly, pretty quick.

    No one will listen, but that is why I no longer care. Condoms are cheap and easy. Bringing a life into this world is a big responsibility. People who cannot afford to raise a kid, yet have them anyway an then cry to me for money get no sympathy.

    Once again, in America, those who plan and save have to finance the losers of society. Not my problem.

    Which is why, IMHO, this country needs to have a one or maybe two child policy when it comes to welfare and social services.

    We will pay welfare and/or EIC for **1** child.

    If you have more, that is your problem. Please consider putting them up for adoption and giving them parents who actually have the skill to raise them. Also please consider your birth control options.

    The problem is that hungry people always generate costs for people who can take care of themselves. We either have to feed them or spend more money maintaining law and order. So I think the only solution here is for people on the public dole to have fewer children.

    Illini I don't think you get it. The College Board is estimating that the cost of a college education will be 400,000 dollars by 2015.

    Think about that for a minute. This says that 90 percent of Americans are making 30k a year. Right now 40 percent have a college degree already. If we're generous and assume that a kid out of college can make 40k a year (on average) he'd have to save 4k, ten percent of his income, for 100 YEARS to pay back that loan, without interest. 100 YEARS! Forget retirement, forget medical care, forget being able to afford kids.

    The American people can no longer afford to be educated enough to live in anything but poverty. Talking about welfare reform only serves to underscore how sadly out of touch you are with the enormity of today's problem.

    Dont be fucking stupid. A 4 year degree will never cost 400k because no one would get it. once the present value of the extra income you get over the years from the degree is less than the cost people will just say fuck it

  • In reply to PTS
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    PTS:

    Dont be fucking stupid. A 4 year degree will never cost 400k because no one would get it. once the present value of the extra income you get over the years from the degree is less than the cost people will just say fuck it

    Most likely, people will just live at home and go to community college, which still costs about $50/credit hour. There are some really good community colleges in the US like BMCC.

  • In reply to PTS
    monkeysama's picture

    PTS:
    monkeysama:
    IlliniProgrammer:
    ANT:
    GoodBread:
    ANT:
    If you have no skill or education and can only make 30k per year, what business do you have bringing a child into this world?

    With that kind of logic, the demographics of our country could get pretty ugly, pretty quick.

    No one will listen, but that is why I no longer care. Condoms are cheap and easy. Bringing a life into this world is a big responsibility. People who cannot afford to raise a kid, yet have them anyway an then cry to me for money get no sympathy.

    Once again, in America, those who plan and save have to finance the losers of society. Not my problem.

    Which is why, IMHO, this country needs to have a one or maybe two child policy when it comes to welfare and social services.

    We will pay welfare and/or EIC for **1** child.

    If you have more, that is your problem. Please consider putting them up for adoption and giving them parents who actually have the skill to raise them. Also please consider your birth control options.

    The problem is that hungry people always generate costs for people who can take care of themselves. We either have to feed them or spend more money maintaining law and order. So I think the only solution here is for people on the public dole to have fewer children.

    Illini I don't think you get it. The College Board is estimating that the cost of a college education will be 400,000 dollars by 2015.

    Think about that for a minute. This says that 90 percent of Americans are making 30k a year. Right now 40 percent have a college degree already. If we're generous and assume that a kid out of college can make 40k a year (on average) he'd have to save 4k, ten percent of his income, for 100 YEARS to pay back that loan, without interest. 100 YEARS! Forget retirement, forget medical care, forget being able to afford kids.

    The American people can no longer afford to be educated enough to live in anything but poverty. Talking about welfare reform only serves to underscore how sadly out of touch you are with the enormity of today's problem.

    Dont be fucking stupid. A 4 year degree will never cost 400k because no one would get it. once the present value of the extra income you get over the years from the degree is less than the cost people will just say fuck it

    Ok....that only makes it harder for 90 percent of Americans to know how to become middle class as there is no longer a path to get there. It makes the future all the more uncertain.

    Don't call me fucking stupid dickhead.

  • In reply to happypantsmcgee
    econ's picture

    happypantsmcgee:
    I would like to be the first to make a market on Anthony having a heart attack. The over/under is 35. The under is 3:1 and the over is 3:2. PM me for paypal info.

    Hahaha!!! HPM, I think that's the hardest you've ever made me LOL (and trust me, that's saying something).

    I said it before and I'll say it again, this is the best coverage of income inequality issues I've ever heard discussed: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2008/11/richard_e...
    (Richard Epstein is truly a f*cking genius!)

  • In reply to TNA
    persimmon's picture

    ANT:
    Illini,
    I am a strong proponent of population control and decline. But what can we do? Being pragmatic, anything that is anti human gets a horrible rap. No way a bill restricting cash pay outs to people on welfare based on the number of kids would pass.

    I hate the PCness that flitters around the recent debates regarding whether or not Planned Parenthood should have its federal funding cut. Liberal word dancing of "choice" and "reproductive health."

    I think PP should be increased tenfold, allowing them to offer free abortions, on demand, day or night. Every aborted fetus is worth 100,000x its weight in gold if you consider the social and economic ramifications of this unwanted child being brought into the world and supported by the public welfare system.

  • TNA's picture

    Well see, I am pro choice, but I would ideally like to live in a world where no one has an abortion. Birth control, condoms, morning after pill, etc are all cheap and easy ways to prevent pregnancy. Abortion is a very messy and horrible thing.

    I've seen the pics and the videos. Whether you think life starts at birth or before, it is fucking nasty seeing something that resembles a human baby being sucked out of a womb.

  • monkeysama's picture

    I'm all for contraception and safe sex practices as well, but the religious right is doing everything it can to defund PP. Complete bastards.

  • In reply to TNA
    persimmon's picture

    ANT:
    Well see, I am pro choice, but I would ideally like to live in a world where no one has an abortion. Birth control, condoms, morning after pill, etc are all cheap and easy ways to prevent pregnancy. Abortion is a very messy and horrible thing.

    I've seen the pics and the videos. Whether you think life starts at birth or before, it is fucking nasty seeing something that resembles a human baby being sucked out of a womb.

    I don't agree with her on much, but I like Hilary Clinton's take on abortion: "It should be legal, safe, and RARE."

  • In reply to persimmon
    happypantsmcgee's picture

    persimmon:
    ANT:
    Well see, I am pro choice, but I would ideally like to live in a world where no one has an abortion. Birth control, condoms, morning after pill, etc are all cheap and easy ways to prevent pregnancy. Abortion is a very messy and horrible thing.

    I've seen the pics and the videos. Whether you think life starts at birth or before, it is fucking nasty seeing something that resembles a human baby being sucked out of a womb.

    I don't agree with her on much, but I like Hilary Clinton's take on abortion: "It should be legal, safe, and RARE."


    Incidentally that is EXACTLY how I feel about steak.

    If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

  • TNA's picture

    Why should the government fund abortion clinics? The government should not be pro or anti child birth.

  • In reply to monkeysama
    rebelcross's picture

    monkeysama:
    I'm all for contraception and safe sex practices as well, but the religious right is doing everything it can to defund PP. Complete bastards.

    How is somebody a "completely bastard" for not wanting to be forced to pay for something they have a moral problem with based on some fundamental beliefs that are held very close to their hearts? Maybe, you don't share their beliefs or agree with them on anything, but you certainly don't have the right to force them to fund something that is against everything that they stand for just because you believe in it or it may be "economically convenient." Again, I always feel like the coercive agent is more the "bastard" than anybody who is just trying to mind their business.

  • TNA's picture

    Just like everyone crucified Bush for not funding stem cells. He didn't ban it, he simply did not let the government fund it.

  • persimmon's picture

    The government should fund abortions clinics because it's a helluva lot cheaper than caring for lifelong incarcerated criminals.

  • In reply to persimmon
    rebelcross's picture

    persimmon:
    The government should fund abortions clinics because it's a helluva lot cheaper than caring for lifelong incarcerated criminals.

    And economic considerations are everything right? Well now that we've settled that, let's get to work, we have a lot of elderly people to kill off over the next few years.

    BTW - I know you're trolling, it was funny, I'm just making a point for others to see. Because I feel like a lot of people actually think like this.

  • In reply to rebelcross
    persimmon's picture

    rebelcross:
    persimmon:
    The government should fund abortions clinics because it's a helluva lot cheaper than caring for lifelong incarcerated criminals.

    And economic considerations are everything right? Well now that we've settled that, let's get to work, we have a lot of elderly people to kill off over the next few years.

    I worked in a nursing home for two years and I know positively that more than half of them there would very much welcome an assisted suicide. Give them a great send off, family and friends remembering their lives (if they have any left that would even show up) some nice music, and a nice downer with some ecstasy thrown in there, and they'd sign up left and right.

    I don't buy this sanctity of life bullshit. I believe in quality of life. When I need to be taken care of like a two year old, take me out back and shoot me.

  • In reply to rebelcross
    econ's picture

    rebelcross:
    monkeysama:
    I'm all for contraception and safe sex practices as well, but the religious right is doing everything it can to defund PP. Complete bastards.

    How is somebody a "completely bastard" for not wanting to be forced to pay for something they have a moral problem with based on some fundamental beliefs that are held very close to their hearts? Maybe, you don't share their beliefs or agree with them on anything, but you certainly don't have the right to force them to fund something that is against everything that they stand for just because you believe in it or it may be "economically convenient." Again, I always feel like the coercive agent is more the "bastard" than anybody who is just trying to mind their business.

    I'm anxiously awaiting monkeysama's response to this one...

    (And, before you start name calling and whatnot, let me assure you that I believe in a woman's right to choose.)

    P.S. Totally off topic, but I'm gonna be pissed if this thread gets bigger than the capitalism/inequality one! Just playing, I could give a rat's ass. The debates on these forums are highly entertaining lately. The only thing they need, is more HPM (and more cowbell, but that's another story...)

    P.S.S. Ignore me, I'm drunk...

  • In reply to rebelcross
    persimmon's picture

    rebelcross:
    persimmon:
    The government should fund abortions clinics because it's a helluva lot cheaper than caring for lifelong incarcerated criminals.

    And economic considerations are everything right? Well now that we've settled that, let's get to work, we have a lot of elderly people to kill off over the next few years.

    BTW - I know you're trolling, it was funny, I'm just making a point for others to see. Because I feel like a lot of people actually think like this.

    Oh, I missed your second part. No, I'm not trolling. I genuinely support the idea of easier access to abortions, and that children should be given up for adoption or aborted unless a family is fully ready to raise him. Ideally, the kid would not have been conceived in the first place, but I'm gay so I can't really weigh in here.

    And we have separation of church and state in my fine country (USA). I don't appreciate religious fanatics trying to force the rest of us to abide by their standards of when life begins.

  • In reply to persimmon
    rebelcross's picture

    persimmon:
    And we have separation of church and state in my fine country (USA). I don't appreciate religious fanatics trying to force the rest of us to abide by their standards of when life begins.

    I agree, there is separation of church in state in our fine country and I also don't appreciate religious fanatics trying to force the rest of us to abide by their standards of when life begins. You realize that, philosophically speaking, atheism and agnosticism are as much a religion (belief system) as Christianity and Judaism, right? It seems to me that the atheists and agnostics around here are much more fanatically zealous in their beliefs than the Christians I know. So, I ask you, who are you, as an agnostic or whatever you are, to force Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. to abide by your standards of when life begins?

    That's something I've never understood from those that are "so offended" in such a fanatical way by so-called "religious fanatics" "forcing" things upon them.

  • TNA's picture

    Oh my!

    I always describe myself as omni-attractive lol.

    I do think we should teach sex education in school and provide free contraceptives.

    Also, the USA is at replacement rate or slightly negative. We grow as a nation through immigration. Not much organic growth. You see this with all developed nations.

  • In reply to rebelcross
    persimmon's picture

    rebelcross:

    I agree, there is separation of church in state in our fine country and I also don't appreciate religious fanatics trying to force the rest of us to abide by their standards of when life begins. You realize that, philosophically speaking, atheism and agnosticism are as much a religion (belief system) as Christianity and Judaism, right? It seems to me that the atheists and agnostics around here are much more fanatically zealous in their beliefs than the Christians I know. So, I ask you, who are you, as an agnostic or whatever you are, to force Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. to abide by your standards of when life begins?

    That's something I've never understood from those that are "so offended" in such a fanatical way by so-called "religious fanatics" "forcing" things upon them.

    As an agnostic I stick to what's most practical and pragmatic. Before abortion was legal, women did it themselves (or were forced by the men they were having affairs with) and frequently ended up dead. So let's make it safe and legal and available to them. Seems pragmatic to me. I also don't go around killing those who vehemently oppose abortion, whereas some religious fanatics kill abortion providers.

    As an agnostic who doesn't believe marriage should be managed AT ALL by the state (we should have civil unions for all couples who want it, if you want to get married, go to your church), I don't go around trying to support laws that discriminate based on one's sexual or gender orientation or preaching hatred, fire, and brimstone on anyone else.

    I don't think you're right that agnosticism is as much a religion as anything else. I don't ascribe to any dogma regarding how to think, whereas my crazy-ass born-again Catholic brother does anything and everything his church tells him to do. Religions colonize the brain and logical, pragmatic thinking.

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