Getting Crushed -- OCR
Hi all, I'm here to humbly ask for your advice. I'm a senior graduating from an Ivy this winter. I've had a FO internship at MS this summer, and a few other relevant boutique internships, M&A & PE, before that. I wasn't able to convert this summer due to "headcount" in my group.
Currently, I'm getting crushed in OCR and my confidence is slowly waning. I'm getting the interviews but can't seem to convert--I'll get one technical out of many that I don't know, or the interviewer has 0 enthusiasm and I can't connect. OCR seems to be a crapshoot, and if I don't convert one of these interviews I don't know what to do next.
How can I best leverage my experience into a FT job? Cold emails? Endlessly applying into the blackhole of website applications? I've done these in the past with no success. My resume is very strong, littered with relevant experience. I've tried reaching out to recruiters & alumni on LinkedIn, using a direct approach, without any tangible outcome (interview) thus far. I'm starting to panic. What would you guys do in my shoes?
Sincerely, a panicking senior.
Reach out to your colleagues over at MS, assuming you left on good terms and see if they can refer you. Otherwise, just power through this recruiting process. It's tough, but once it's over, it'll be smooth sailing.
I'm not sure what you mean by "once it's over, it'll be smooth sailing." Also, are you implying that my colleagues at MS can refer me to other banks? This doesn't seem likely because my group was small and the bankers were all senior. They didn't seem like the type to go out of their way for anyone. Thanks for the advice though.
I got great feedback for my "attitude" during the program. When I didn't get the job and had a phone conversation with my MD, he didn't want to write me a reference letter (are reference letters taboo / uncommon practice?).
Therefore, even though I supposedly had a good attitude and worked hard, I think they would be reluctant to go out of their way with referrals.
That's fine, and I appreciate your feedback, but your comment does nothing in the way of addressing my original inquiry. I'm not trying to get a job by using referrals from my internship, because for me that doesn't appear to be a viable option. I would like to know what else I could do.
Does it absolutely have to be BB? I mean honestly. You will already have a BA or BS from an ivy. Already have BB experience as well as PE. I mean you should really just apply for everything you are interested in. Already having a ivy degree and eventually a good GMAT will take you far beyond the normal person as far as applying for M7 mba programs. Personally, I'd go HF, PE, AM, or an elite boutique if I were you and still apply for bb anyways.
why does on campus interviews seem like a crapshoot? (Originally Posted: 02/06/2007)
What the hell are recruiters looking for when they select who to interview? And then, what are the bankers looking for to select how to go to the next round?
Target school, on target for summa cum laude, interned in IBD for a BB already, good references, know what to say during an interview, etc... still can't seem to get the top jobs.
Since you go to an ivy school, there will be plenty of information sessions. I was in a similar situation and attended 4-6 sessions / night. That's your best way to "network" with people last minute as those individuals typically pull resumes.
Do you mean that you can't seem to get INTERVIEWS for the top jobs, or after you get the interview, you can't seem to get selected for the job?
If the second statement is true, I'd just work on your interviewing skills. Practice with a friend. Literally write out your answers to the stupid fit questions...and ask your friends, parents, siblings, etc. for advice on your answers. Fit is by far what matters most in the interview.
If the first statement is true, you should consider how many interview slots there are for the "top" jobs for your school. Are you at a major target school like Harvard, Wharton, etc. where the banks have a ton of slots for each position (relative to the number of interested people)? It could just be that you're at a good but not major target school (like say Duke) so the standards are just so so high.
Just my thoughts. Good luck.
If you have connected with anyone who is an analyst/associate and seems pretty smart try seeing if they can give you some advice. I really hit it off with one of my interviewers, and while I'm still on the fence about a position there he has given me a lot of great questions to ask in interviews, and has helped me refine answers for a lot of my fit and technical questions.
Getting the Interview: 1. Relevant Work Experience 2. GPA (Found some people who put this at #1 and #3) 3. Extracurriculars 4.(obviously correctness/formatting of resume)
Getting to Round 2: 1. Decent communication skills 2. Knowing your resume 3. Nailing all of the Technical quetsions
Getting an offer: 1. Fit with the firm, can the person interviewing imagine him/herself working with you at 3am. 2. Communication skills
I disagree about getting to Round 2...I think it's really the same as getting an offer (all about fit). I would guess that at minimum 50% of the first round interviewees would pass those three tests, but they simply can't take that many students.
campus recruiting is a bitch. only something like 15% of all juniors here actually get an interview here, but I suppose that when recruiters are making judgments on who to interview based completely on a resume (And sometimes a cover letter) at a school that's filled to the brim with overachievers, it does tend to be arbitrary
it really does seem like a crapshoot. I have an average gpa, no prior i-banking internships and got interviews with GS, Leh, Citi, UBS, but not DB or Boa. Figure that one out....
Also, moving onto the second round seems highly dependent on totally nailing the interview questions while at the same time getting a great rapport with the interviewers. That and having the stars being lined up that day.
depends on your interviewer. I found that alot of the time, the people who came to my school for interviewing were alums and you either clicked with them (i.e. were in a same frat/sorority, played the same sport, did volunteer, whatever) or could just charm the pants off of, in which case they'd be much more apt to put you through to the next round. But, getting through those superdays was always a challenge because you end up dealing with people who have some sort of inferiority complex (i.e. Oh, I went to non-target school. So, what are they teaching you over there at target IVY?) or people who end up being like "I went to wharton. im a huge d-bag and think everyone is below me."
But in the end, I find at my school especially, people who make it to the second round are usually the most well-spoken, charismatic, and easy to get along with in terms of personality. the rest will come.
getting interviews in the first place depends a lot on who you know almost more than what you know.
Absolute crapshoot. I got interviews with Bain Consulting, GS, DB, Wachovia, and some boutques and got to every single final round. However, I wasn't even given an interview at JPM, Leh, and even Barclays
Wow you sound entitled. Graduated Ivy with MS summer and panicking. What's wrong with not being another generic i-banker?
No offers through on campus recruiting -- next steps? (Originally Posted: 10/08/2017)
I have just gone through the on-campus recruiting process for banking at a target school with a 3.8 gpa (currently a junior) and have come out of it with no offers. Got a few interviews and even a superday that I thought went fine but I guess not well enough for an offer. How can I best position myself to get into banking FT? Since banks are starting to fill up their intern classes I've been looking at corporate development work at large companies and other finance related jobs like funds and small PE firms. As a bank looking through resumes to hire for the few spots they have left for FT positions next year what stands out best?
Have you been networking with alumns etc outside of OCR? I think that guys from target schools can really separate themselves if they reach network like crazy. Good luck.
Not getting a return offer is a huge weakness. The whole point of hiring out of SA classes is to mitigate risk. If a bank did not give you a return offer, you are a risky hire to other banks. You need to figure out exactly why you did not get that return offer because if it had to do with your soft skills or attitude, that could be why your interviews are not panning out.
It's probably how you come across in interviews. If you did your SA at MS, there really are no technicals that you should not be able to get. The rest is fit. My first suggestion would be to do some mock interviews with people you know or a mentor on WSO. Your "walk me through your resume", "why IB", "why Bank XYZ", etc. answers are probably weak. You need to tie everything back to your skills. For example, if you are interviewing at GS and asked "why GS", you need to conclude your answer with that skills you can bring to the table to hit the ground running (e.g. interned in the same industry group, previous BB experience, etc.).
Does OCR Really Help? (Originally Posted: 12/13/2012)
As someone who goes to a target, we always have top BB's and places coming doing info sessions and taking part in the career fairs. However, I've found that the chance of landing something directly from OCR is minimal.
It tends to be an overcrowded room full of Asians in suits who rush up to the recruiter when they're finished to throw their resumes at them. And don't even get me started on career fairs. I'm becoming convinced that OCR is close to useless.
To those of you who go to targets/semi-targets, what's been your experience with OCR?
Sil thanks for the feedback. I agree that my interview is probably rusty and answers a bit on the weak side since I haven't had to go through the process in a while. Honestly I'm still a bit shell shocked from the end of the summer. The problem is that neither of the interns in my group got offers. It was a very small group with only 1 analyst, and MS runs notoriously lean. When questioned, do you think it would be wise to state that neither intern received an offer? Thanks.
Just do it. Play the game; it sucks, but play it. Go to the events, email them after, set up phone calls, get them to know your name. As fake as everything seems, OCR is the best way to get an interview and a job with these places. You can outshine people with your resume, but for a lot of OCR they end up having 60 resumes, the recruiting team goes through them and if someone recognizes the name/has spoken with you they have the chance to say so.
My experience with OCR has been nothing but positive. Obviously there will be plenty of gunners at information sessions. But, it is still much easier to meet people through OCR and then follow up and build a relationship.
OCR is amazing. But not because of the info sessions. Two big reason:
2.It guarantees you a fighting chance of an SA. If you have OCR, you're not competing against everyone else in the country for an SA. You're competing against the other kids at your target. Each BB has already decided beforehand they're taking x-y number of kids from your school. You just have to beat the 20something other kids with first round interviews, and then they 12 something kids at the superday.
it definitely helps. dont take it for granted
Maybe you're just not good enough (in all seriousness)
Or maybe he thinks that someone should be begging him to work for them...
Maybe I'm not going about it the best way/haven't been patient enough, but I've found developing stronger relationships with my connections has been getting me much better traction.
All the internships I've gotten have been through people I know.
Although I play the OCR game, it's a crapshoot, especially at my school.
Your options are OCR, networking or both. If you can network and find the person that gets the pile of resumes from your school, you are set...
Info. sessions are a waste of time. If you're trying to 'network' during one you're already too late. At that point you should have already made a contact or two at the bank and sent them a friendly reminder that you'll be at their info. session. From there your job is to fucking smile and press some palms so they have a face to remember, but nothing more. All the morons that try to ask 'questions' and shit are too late to the dance. You sound whiny as all hell. Must be nice to have IBD OCR, use it properly.
OCR is great IF you are a good applicant to begin with. For example if you have a 3.7+ target with IB experience and a 3.9 non-target with the same internship, it will take a lot more effort to land interviews for the non-target. With the target profile and OCR, you'll likely get a good amount of interviews without having to network.
That said if you're a mediocre applicant you're basically in the same boat as the non-target. There are only roughly 12-30 interview slots and if you're not in the top 20-30 of your school then you don't get an interview. I applied to basically every IB/consulting/S&T job when I was doing SA recruiting with a 3.5 but without any finance experience and got dinged literally everywhere. Though come FT when I raised my GPA and got IB experience I pretty much got most interviews I applied for.
Struck Out in First Stages of Target OCR (Originally Posted: 12/14/2013)
My story: I go to a target with a lot of recruiting. I'm a Junior. First rounds of applications were due earlier this month and to put it bluntly, I basically struck out. ~20 applications and no callbacks. I've only gotten 1 interview this whole year and that was with a Big 4 consulting firm. Granted, these were some of the big shot BB's and MM's like MS, CS, Blackstone, Evercore, etc… but this can't be a good sign.
Granted, I have some stinging negatives on my resume. GPA is a 3.2 and I'm not in my school's business school (you probably have an idea of what school I go to now). Despite this, my experience is decent. BB PWM and big bank accounting last summer as sophomore are the highlights.
After this semester I'm guessing my GPA will be about a 3.3-3.4. That's the best I can get it up to for SA apps. Good news is most of the recruiting and apps take place in January and early spring.
A lot of the apps ask for your resume, cover letter, and transcript. I've gotten my resume checked and told by Wall Streeters that it looks good and my school's career center helped me straighten it out.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, idk. Any advice would be appreciated.
do some grassroots networking- make the most out of every connection-ones you can find on linkedin, people from your town, etc. also target the firms that your school may not be a core school from so you don't have to compete with people that have higher GPAs. make sure to apply to some firms that aren't all reaches as well-there are tons of firms out there not just the BB's
3.3-3.4 is perceived as much better than 3.2--I know it is not much different technically, but it is all about perception.
Even for OCR at my school, few people got first rounds not because they were super awesome or had great GPAs. They got in because they 'knew' the analyst level guys who got them first round interviews. Not sure what happened after the first rounds to them, but getting first rounds is a huge deal. So basically, even for OCR, it is important to network or know the guys pulling out resumes--especially at schools like W etc.
you have a mediocre resume from a semi-target. you're only going to get interviews if you network.
I go to a target school as well (maybe even the same school as you), and I have a few friends who got interviews with 3.3 - only because they networked super hard and had people pulling their resumes.
It's not too late - network with people at the lower BBs and MM firms and you should be able to get at least a couple of interviews. Worst case scenario, can you stay in school for an extra semester? That'll give you another shot at SA recruiting.
If by "non-business" I hope you mean STEM...if not, with a 3.2, you're lucky even to have the big 4 consulting interview
You have to start networking right now. Unfortunately it is a bad sign that you aren't getting first rounds in the early applications as that will likely carry over to the main Jan round. Luckily you have all of winter break to change how things go, maybe plan a networking trip to meet some people in person.
Sorry, but a 3.2 at a target is not going to get you interviews at any of the BBs or elite boutiques, unless you network aggressively. I'm not sure why you're surprised with your results. No offense, but the fact is that you're in the bottom 50% of your class.
seconded
Struck out OCR; too late? (Originally Posted: 01/18/2014)
Hey fellow monkeys,
I go to a non target, with two BBs doing OCR. I networked pretty extensively with them, and not even an interview, unfortunately. I have a pretty good background, leadership on campus, boutique ib etc. GPA might be bringing me down, 3.2. My question is: is it too late to network and hopefully land something for summer? I am asking because I know the MMs are giving out first rounds. Does anyone know of any MM or lower MM that haven't started yet? If so, is it possible for someone to be willing to help in such a short time frame if I do contact them?
This is for NYC, btw.
Really appreciate any input. Thanks!
Some firms (even reputable firms) recruit as late as mid-March/early-April. Keep networking, spread your net wide. Hopefully you'll get something. Worst case scenario, go to another boutique.
Appreciate the positive advice. Do you know which firms off the top of your head?
Anyone else care to weigh in their thoughts? As always, thanks guys.
While late, it's never too late. At the very least, this gets you part of the way there toward FT recruiting if nothing pans out this summer.
You have nothing to lose by going balls out and networking your butt off, so I'd say go for it. Maybe you end up with an internship at a smaller shop, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Also, if do indeed have a great resume in terms of work experience and have networked, then I would bet it's your GPA bringing you down as well. Look at it from the banks' perspectives - why should I pick you for an interview if your GPA doesn't meet our cutoffs? You'd have to have someone pulling for you pretty hard, so keep networking, and best of luck.
Thanks for all the positive responses. Will do as suggested
OCR Epic Fail - what to do next? (Originally Posted: 11/03/2015)
Hi everyone, I am a junior from a semi target where around 10 BB/EB recruit on our campus. I bombed the only two interviews I've got and I have no other interview coming up. My career office has already been telling me there are few opportunities left and I should either consider other industries or wait till winter for non-elite boutique recruitment. However, I don't want to give up just like that. Is there still chance to get into a more decent MM/boutique?
I believe I have a strong background - I have done four IB/PE internships in the past. However, I do have mediocre 3.5GPA as an Econ major and made some serious mistakes during networking, like starting late, asking questions like checking boxes and didn't directly ask for referrals. I also didn't fully prepare for my technicals, which is why I bombed my interviews. If I improve my networking/interview skills, is there still chance to end up at a decent firm for SA? What are some good places for me to look at now? How should I best position myself for a better FT offer?
You have had four IB/PE internships and were unprepared for your technicals? That is a big red flag and something that you need to address ASAP. If your internships were at boutiques that only had you bind books, format PowerPoint, etc., take some time to go through the interview guides (I like M&I's guide) and learn the concepts behind that technicals, not just the questions themselves.
To best position yourself for FT, I would start looking at boutiques where you can do your SA at. Stay in contact with the people you networked with. When it comes times for FT recruiting next year, this will be important. I would wait a month or so for recruiting to die down and then really hit networking hard for FT recruiting. Good luck.
Thanks. Yeah my IB/PE internships were at boutiques with zero training. All I did was doing pitch books, deal reports or due diligence, and 50% time I was cold calling firms. I really hope I can get some decent training for my next summer. I feel like when I'm studying on my own I spend a lot of time looking up things online and it's easy to learn it the wrong way. How would you suggest me narrow things down and look for boutiques that have decent training? There are so many boutiques out there and it seems difficult to just call every firm up
You just need to call them up. No boutique is going to have a robust training program, if they even have one. This is where the work falls on you. You will clearly get good at formatting and getting books ready, but you will have no modeling experience. This is actually the easiest to get since to get good at formatting, you really need someone checking your work, whereas building simple models by yourself is not that tough. I would suggest really going through whichever guide(s) you have and then staying late one day at work and just put together an operating model, a DCF, precedent & comps, an lbo model, and a merger model. You don't need to make them very complex.
Also, for FT recruiting, if you land in this same position again (i.e. no offers), don't discount working FT at a boutique. You will be surprised at how relatively easy it will be to get lateral interviews after six months to a year.
Any way to get around the OCR process? (Originally Posted: 05/06/2016)
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Are you at a Target? If so, it'll be hard to go through OCR unless your network is top notch with your GPA. The thing that sucks about Targets is that if you're a rock star you'll get a ton of opportunities - everyone else not so much. Where do the majority of your classmates end up after graduation, geographically speaking? That's the trick here - you want to go somewhere where they don't. For example, let's say you go to Wharton - I'm willing to bet most of your classmates are going to NYC. So if you're going around OCR, pick a city like Chicago, Atlanta, SF, Cleveland, etc. (somewhere where you can spin why you want to be in that region). The smaller firms will be willing to take a look at you since you're out of the way. Either that, or go for the EBs and BB offices that no one wants (i.e. McKinsey Cleveland) it should be a bit of easier ride since most people self select out of anything that isn't NYC, LA, Chicago, Houston. Hope that helps!
If you have OCR, use it liberally regardless of your GPA. OCR is the express lane to entering competitive fields with high barriers to entry. Incidentally, lack of OCR is one of the main barriers to entry for most students....
Network hard and you will be OK. I know a few people who had a similar GPA last semester as a non-URM/non-female, and got interviews at a lot of good firms, and ultimately were able to convert a few to offers.
When I say network hard, I mean it, though... everyone junior on the recruitment team should know your name, in a good sense, and try to get the attention of 1-2 senior people if you can. You will get interviews if you get enough people to like you, and then it's up to you to convert them into offers.
As others have stated, you need to network. This is the only way.
How to Ruin Your Self-Esteem (Reflections from OCR) (Originally Posted: 02/15/2018)
Hey everyone,
I've been a longtime lurker on this site and it's given me a lot of help navigating the financing recruiting process both in and out of school. I recently started a blog focused around competitive environments and wanted to share a post I thought was relevant to some of you: reflections on OCR
OCR was a few years ago for me but I find competition in OCR fascinating because: 1. Your competitors are your fellow students and most of them are looking for same jobs EXACTLY in the same time frame as you 2. The playing field is as even as it gets across the board. By this time in college, most students have little relevant work experience (if at all), no professional network to leverage, and have access to the same resources as everyone else (school support, career website, clubs available to join, etc.)
TLDR: How do you beat 100 other peers that are almost exactly like you? Unconventional avenues, be deep not wide, and don’t overthink the small stuff
Obviously my view is biased from my own experiences, school, etc. but hopefully it resonates with some of you.
You can view the full blog post "How to Ruin Your Self Esteem" here: https://wp.me/p9BDUt-M
I also have a separate relevant post on networking, "6 Reflections from 93 Cold Emails" here: https://wp.me/p9BDUt-W
Hey ThatOtherGuy, sorry about the delay, but are any of these useful:
Any pros willing to rescue this discussion? mikey_serbs rike7oct mittenmadman
Fingers crossed that one of those helps you.
What do you do when even OCR is too competitive? (Originally Posted: 02/03/2009)
Like many college juniors I'm waist deep in On Campus Recruiting right now. I've submitted all my applications have heard back from a few, and am still waiting for the rest. So far I have one interview request and 3 rejections.
I am at a top 15 Undergrad school with a GPA of 3.85 in Economics. I desperately want a job in consulting but I'm worried I wont get my chance in this economy. Whats happening at my school is all the would-be bankers have switched gears and have now been bombarding on campus recruiting with applications to consulting firms. This, coupled with the fewer positions available, is making me nervous. Is there anything I can do to get an edge on these other students, who are definitely qualified, but don't want it nearly as much as me? Whats the best option outside of OCR? Also, if I can't land a consulting internship this summer, whats my best hope to get one during full time recruiting in the fall?
Thanks
Network, network and network. Get yourself out there. Even though OCR is ever more competitive, you still should go talk to the people and ask good questions. I just went to a top undergrad to recruit summer analysts last week. When the resume book came today, I immediately picked the people who impressed me the most (and had to throw away a ton of other solid resumes because I had no other way of referencing them).
Your stats seem good. Just be confident and be able to articulate why you stand out.
Summer is definitely important, but don't freak out if you don't spend it in a consulting internship. Spots are much more plentiful in FT recruiting, at least they have been in the past. Out of my entering class of 15 at an MBB office, 3 spent the summer with the firm (there were 4 summer interns, one didn't get an offer).
Both points above are spot-on.
A few more thoughts:
I'd focus on differentiating your resume - would-be bankers are coming from a finance background. Highlighting consulting-type skills (in forms of people/team leadership, entrepreneurship and risk-taking, even client service if applicable) is one way to do this.
You should have a strong alumni network at a top 15. Plug into that for part-time jobs during the school year, references during OCR for summer and FT.
If you don't get a summer, you MUST DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE. Generic internships like on-campus research, retail management, etc aren't going to cut it. Try to start a company.
Start a consulting group on campus during the year. This helps build your network, your resume, and provides you a taste of what the job will be like anyway.
Hope that helps.
Kevin www.managementconsulted.com
Bypassing traditional on-campus recruiting (Originally Posted: 06/21/2011)
Hey everyone,
I am interested in applying for a Full-Time S&O Analyst position with Deloitte Consulting after graduation in 2012 in NYC doing private sector work. However, I currently go to a school in DC in which on-campus recruiting allows us to only apply to Deloitte's Federal Practice Consulting in DC. With networking and all of those other tactics, would it be possible to bypass these traditional on-campus recruiting roadblocks and actually successfully apply to Deloitte in NYC? And if anyone has any experiences with this (doesn't necessarily have to be w/ Deloitte or Consulting in general), please feel free to share.
Thanks for all your help
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