HBS vs. Wharton for Investment Banking
This is a little premature as I am still awaiting my round 1 decision from Wharton, but I was accepted to HBS on Wednesday and am more than pumped about the chance to attend Harvard.
I am coming from a military background, and am interested in transitioning into a career in investment banking after business school.
My question is simple: is there any difference in my career prospects coming from HBS vs. Wharton in banking? I have visited both, and loved both campuses, people, etc. I know Boston > Philly, and that HBS's "brand" is hard to beat. I am not 100% confident I will end up in banking, but as of now that is what I am most interested in.
I know HBS is purely case method, and I know that is not always the most conducive in teaching fundamental principles of finance, but having talked to many veterans who have gone to banking it seems that most learn how to do the job on the job.
What do you think? Harvard Business School or Wharton?
Both are great schools and you can't go wrong with either of them. Career prospects are the same imo. It's up to you ... at the end of the day ... to generate revenue and bring in clients. Personally ... if one gets in to HBS ... one does not say no to HBS .... unless Wharton gives you generous aid. Then again, $200k could be a rounding error if you become a career banker.
For sure, and with HBS's generous need-based aid I think Wharton will be hard pressed to come close to competing on that small front.
And my thoughts are your thoughts, one doesn't say no to HBS.
First and foremost, congrats on HBS! Honestly for just getting an IB associate position you'll have an incredibly high chance of getting in at either. http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/90-conversion-rate-for-front-offi… I'm not saying ti won't require work on your part but I wouldn't be evaluating the differences between HBS vs Wharton based on your chance of getting into IB afterwards as either will get you there. I'd start asking yourself why you want to do IB and what else that motivation might lead to instead, or after IB and then possibly compare HBS vs Wharton on that. I'd also strongly also consider where you think you'll have more personal/professional growth at. Do you like the case method? I know you said you loved both campuses/people but I'd still drill down that line and see if there's any differences there that you find important.
Having said all of this, there may be a reason why HBS's yield is higher than Wharton's so if you truly can't decide I'd go with the momentum and go for HBS. Also while you're clearly a great candidate there are plenty of people who get into H but not W so they adcom may make your decision for you.
Thanks for the congrats, I am lucky.
Having had a small taste of both classroom experiences I definitely felt drawn the most to HBS. Hard to compete against the student engagement in the classroom.
Roger that on your last point!
That logic results in HBS's yield being higher than Wharton's because HBS's yield is higher than Wharton's.
Just posting to say congrats, awesome job. And my unqualified advice - take HBS. I'd leave word banking out of the picture as both will give you an incredibly high chance of getting a position at top banks. I'd be more greedy and explore other opportunities too. IB is a great field but it does have bunch of cons and it is not as hard to break into as some people think. Having that HBS brand on my profile I'd go for more prestigious opportunities and leave banking as a backup plan.
Thanks for the support. I am definitely thinking along those lines, PE has always been my dream with IBD as the intermediate step!
As others have said, I wouldn't worry much about IB job prospects (they'll be great from either). I'd just focus on what's better for you. For example, the case method can prepare you just fine (IB isn't rocket science anyway), but if you don't enjoy it then that could prevent you from getting the most out of your two years. Similarly, both networks are great (comparing the two would be splitting hairs), so the benefit to you will depend on your own ability to forge relationships (i.e. fit).
You seem to be leaning towards HBS and I would too, so I'm not trying to convince you. For me, it's partly because Wharton has a reputation as a finance powerhouse and I think branching out would be good for me, even if I did decide to stay in finance. That being said, there is a great article (from a better professor) about how Wharton is more than just finance. You may have already seen in, but just in case:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-grant/wharton-has-an-image-prob_b_40…
Tough choice, both are decent schools. I think H has the better apparel though. Good luck OP.
As has been said, you can't really go wrong either way. From my perspective, you can't make a wrong choice, but thinking further out to the future if you think there is a chance you ever want to do anything entrepreneurial (actual entrepreneurship, not the way the bankers think they are entrepreneurial ...) I would think Harvard is the place to go. Although Wharton is very well known by those with knowledge of b-schools / a history of interacting with business people, the Harvard brand would likely serve you better in starting a business (i.e. with attracting employees, vendors, etc.) solely on the mertis on it being more well known.
Again, my opinion is worthless, but congrats on HBS and thanks for your service. Both are very impressive
Congrats! I hope to have this problem someday. It's interesting to hear everyone's opinions, especially "one doesn't say no to HBS." It does seem like a trump card in a way.
This is basically GS vs JPM
HBS.
If one day you want to leave finance, the Harvard name will carry further than Wharton.
Deeply appreciate everyone's advice and opinions. I am definitely going to seize the opportunity to attend HBS. Thank you so much for the feedback!
get in first then worry about this crap.
both schools are great and can't go wrong w/ either. what's military background? do you have the post 9/11 GI bill?
Yes, I will have some of the post 9/11 GI bill. Like I said initially, only accepted to HBS at this point but was just curious to discuss the potential decision. With the feedback that I have received here and what my gut tells me though I have decided to accept the admissions offer from Harvard. Cheers!
send me a pm, can talk offline. went through the process myself as a veteran and have some helpful insights.
Maybe @"CompBanker" can chime in on the drawbacks of the case method.
I am a nobody, but ,my opinion is do the non traditional thing and go to Wharton. You have no Finance background and the case method might be a negative if you want to learn Finance.
Case method gets very annoying in some classes (and my school isn't full case method). Instead of "answer this accounting problem" it becomes "read this 20 page case, 19 of which is irrelevant, find and export all the data you need, and then answer this accounting problem."
Just be careful, because during class visits, the schools show Business Strategy and such, classes that work VERY well for case method - but that's not the same for all classes.
I have definitely heard that complaint from first year students, but like a few others have said, whatever the case method misses in my "fundamental skills" management, I will just have to supplement with independent study and on the job learning during my internship. Definitely cannot discount the strength of Wharton in finance, but like others have said I have never met someone who regretted attending HBS because they didn't get enough lecture time.
I should specify, I'd definitely take Harvard over Wharton...I just find it funny so many people view the case method as a positive and a reason to attend certain schools (especially Darden), when it's infact inefficient in many cases.
OP - Congrats, you're making the right decision. The only school that you should even consider taking over HBS is GSB and that really comes down to personal preference. HBS all the way here.
I guess the MBA is not really about classroom education per se. You can always pick up books and brush up on Finance skills/knowledge.
Will echo HBS. And @"animalz", what would you consider more prestigious opportunities?
If you want to go into finance, go Wharton. If you want to go into more general industry / management, go HBS
HBS all the way.
So basically if you have no finance background go to Wharton? That's the general consensus?
Harvard. Even people that didn't go to college know Harvard is the best school in the country. My parents aren't gonna know what Wharton is.
Get into Wharton first. You'd be quite surprised how many people get into HBS and dinged at Wharton. But I agree that you should pick HBS even before knowing just cause not everyone has that choice and its the best brand out there.
You say you're coming from a military background but what exactly do you know about finance? What's your undergrad/major?
I'm still an undergrad myself so take this with a grain of salt. I've heard that Wharton is much more focused on the quantitative vs. the qualitative at HBS. If I had to guess, I would say that your military background has already made a significant contribution to your qualitative traits. HBS strives to create leaders who aren't afraid to speak up in just about any setting. Wharton would aim to teach you something about finance.
Given your background, I'd go for Wharton. Forget what these guys say about prestige. People in finance know that they're on equal levels.
Also, this.
Good points for sure. My undergrad was in economics, and I did an internship in college at a fund of funds so I have a little experience. I understand where you are coming from though. I am going to stick with HBS for the previously mentioned reasons, but no doubt Wharton would be an excellent choice!
Its true that HBS sucks for finance, but the prestige and connections are more important for most people. If you really want to sacrifice some of these for the sake of learning and pushing yourself academically in this field, I'd suggest Wharton (Columbia and Booth) are the other top notch programs where you really get to learn much
Can we get @"mbavsmfin" for his thoughts on going to Columbia over Harvard?
Can someone speak to what post-MBA finance associate job roles look like in practice? IB/PE, etc. isn't rocket science, but it's definitely not child's play either. I'm struggling to understand how a firm would hire a guy with zero finance experience and minimal quantitative knowledge of finance to an associate level role that requires managing people beneath him/her and checking their work. I don't have an MBA but I've got pretty extensive finance and real estate experience (investment banking, private equity, etc.), so I'm struggling with the concept that when I was 22-24 that a guy with no material financial experience would be checking my Excel for errors.
Maybe someone can also speak to how on-campus recruiters will look at the OP's resume in relation to what they will be hiring for.
EDIT: this post isn't meant to be a critical post. I'm genuinely curious, and I think speaking to what hiring managers will be looking for from HBS MBA candidates as far as experience and knowledge would be helpful to the OP as well.
It's just standard (as I'm sure you know) and I'm assuming it's because they train you up pretty well, and in the beginning associates are only doing/checking work they can handle anyway.
I've honestly never dealt with a post-MBA associate in an employer-employee relationship. On the surface it seems like a massive misplacement of resources to hire a graduate of HBS who doesn't really know finance if you can hire an HBS graduate with relevant finance experience.
Speaking from my experience, finance is a language. Sure, it's not rocket science and you can pick up some of the basic math fairly quickly, but to understand it at a real fluent level takes years. That's why it sort of boggles the mind that an HBS graduate with a non-finance background could even hold a candle in recruiting to an HBS grad with a good finance background.
Not taken critically at all! I am curious to this exact same point. From what I have heard I know that military veterans do well in investment banking recruiting at top b-schools, but fare less well understandably in PE/VC recruiting for the reasons you mention.
Like most of us, I would love a career in PE, but I acknowledge that I need to get experience in the "language" of finance before I get ahead of myself!
HBS grads with finance experience don't go into banking
Well, that's a good explanation.
Not true at all. You may want to elaborate more on what you mean with finance experience. Is this HF/PE/IB? So it really depends. To be more precise I'd say that not many people with IB experience go into banking post-mba but some of them do if they can't get into HF/PE or other role they are aiming at. Plus, there's also the sponsored ones. But that's true in every MBA business schools ">M7 school not just HBS.
When I say finance experience, I mean knowing how to use Excel like a champion and intuitively understanding how everything works together, why the inputs are what they are, and how macro and micro factors can impact the bottom line of the analysis.
Being able to use Excel is one thing. Being able to check the work of an analyst for formula mistakes, conceptual errors, or poor analysis is a totally different animal than just knowing some IF statements that most MBA grads would know. I personally wouldn't hire an HBS grad with no finance experience who I had to train for a year before I felt comfortable that they could manage analysts and talk intelligently about the business.
Intellectual horsepower is great, but nothing beats experience in the short-term. And if I can get an experienced individual with high intellectual horsepower then why am I hiring a guy with no relevant experience? So I guess it does come down to this--if few people with high finance experience want to do IB post-MBA then maybe the pool is much smaller.
I don't think bankers get sponsored for MBAs anymore. Maybe at lower end M7s you can get some people with MO/BO work experience who go into IB but I doubt it at HBS.
Agree with your statements. And in fact, no one does. Believe me banks are willing to hire someone from Ross with relevant finance experience which you described pretty well than a career switcher from HBS. This is pretty normal and in fact the norm in Wall Street. Nothing can beat experience, not even an HBS degree. The thing is that not many people want to to banking post-MBA apart from the cases I mentioned before so where else are they going to find intellectual horsepower, highly motivated and responsible folks. MBA business schools ">M7 programs namely H\S/W\C\CH/ plus MIT and Kellogg to a larger extent if you will. Perhaps an exception are military guys who get some love because of other reasons but thats pretty much it
You can pretty easily get into IB without prior finance experience from any T15-T20 school. It's just really not that competitive anymore.
Even if you're an excel whiz coming out from HBS what are you going to answer when they ask which courses and what things have you been learning during your first year? "Well I did this case and then we also went through this other case" I mean not exactly the best place to develop hard skills that are needed at this job. Guess its good if you're going into consulting, corporate development or becoming a CEO right after school, but you really need to get your act together and learn stuff by your own, buy some books and crack some BIWS or some of that stuff if you really want to have a shot, cause unless your interviewiers are HBS alumns its gonna be an uphill battle for this type of banking career path versus other schools like Wharton, Columbia, Booth and even lower tier such as Ross that do a pretty good job training folks for the street.
I'm still interested in hearing @"mbavsmfin"'s opinion on taking Columbia over HBS.
You're delusional if you think HBS students are at a disadvantage for banking jobs vs other schools. The Ross comment was downright hilarious given that Ross at the MBA level is subpar for finance.
All the top BBs and elite boutiques ask similar questions. If you are reasonably smart and want banking badly, you will get it out of any top school even if it's general management focused such as HBS. In fact, because not too many pursue banking out of HBS, you would actually be at an advantage since you will be competing with fewer people for the first-round on-campus invite slots.
So I'm starting to see a pattern. Basically, people are agreeing that the main reason HBS grads with no finance experience are getting hired into associate-level roles in IB is because there isn't much competition? Is that basically the long and short of it? That makes intuitive sense to me since the typical finance-experienced MBA business schools ">M7 graduate is probably looking at PE or hedge funds.
Thanks for all of the thoughts and advice. Update: I got accepted to Wharton today. Still planning on going to HBS, but this dialogue has been eye-opening, thank you all!
Well done! Good luck on HBS. Please withdraw Wharton offer to be fair to others waiting.
I'm currently a first year at HBS, so my commentary will be a little bit biased. Like you, I also was interested in investment banking at this time last year when I was accepted. With that said, my career interests have taken a 180 degree turn since the beginning of this past semester. So think about which institution would be better for you if you happen to change career preferences.
On another note, I had a conversation with an MD at a bulge bracket IB this past summer and asked him how HBS grads fared in investment banking. He was clear that the Wharton and Columbia grads were better at all of the modeling work done in the first year as an associate than the HBS grads. However, he stated that he's seen that HBS grads were promoted faster and given more leadership positions in the firm over the long-term because of their ability to focus on 'the big picture.'
With all of that said, my advise would be to accept the offer to go to HBS. Most likely your career interests will change over the next year, and you'll be thankful for all the resources that HBS will give you in the career search.
see the "big picture" = we promote based on mba prestige. Wish more people were aware of this trend, I see a lot of people make the choice to get a degree from less prestigious institutions which can turn out badly for them. Nothing is meritocracy, not really - and especially post-mba jobs.
Yup. The "big picture" is a worthless cliche. In the world of post-mba finance jobs, it's all about prestige. Turning down a more prestigious program due to money or other issues is a HUGE mistake, one that you will regret for the rest of your life.
Congrats bro! This is a good problem to have so don't go losing sleep over it!
IMO - Wharton will be better for IB when you graduate, but Harvard will be better long term if you hate IB and want to kill yourself. Either way, you can't fuck up in life now!
First of all, congratulations. Both amazing schools. Since you're not 100% sold on banking, I'd go with the school that carries the most "cache", which would be HBS. Truth is, both schools will open doors to whichever avenue you decide to go down, so it's really not a tough choice. Go where you feel more at home.
Wharton has a much, much better Finance program. But coming from either school, you wont have any trouble getting into a top bank (you can learn enough to land a job by studying from guides). Evaluate schools by their culture, location, etc.. your decision will not affect your ability to become a wanker banker.
Congrats on HBS - take it and don't look back.
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