Hey guys, got the official figures from the CMC and investment banking club at Kellogg. Of the 51 people who recruited from IB last winter, 45 received internships. I've seen quite a few threads asking for these figures, so figured that I'd post it here.
So for anyone who is wondering, if you go to a top business school, it has been phenomenally easy to get a banking job the last few years. This might change with recent salary increases and work/life balance changes, but the competition is nothing like undergrad.
Is that 45 people who received offers or 45 offers?
45 people received offers. Also, I looked at the firms, there's a few elite MM (Moelis, Macquarie, Houlihan, Evercore, Lazard) so I've amended the title. Also looks like they are including Blackstone, but I don't think thats considered an investment bank?
Its most likely 45 people who received offers, not total offers.... So since 51 people applied, and Kellogg has a class size of about 650, that's just a little under 8% of people who went for banking jobs. Pretty dramatic change compared to pre-crisis levels.
One of the selling points they had on the slides is that there's less competition for banking here, so it's easier to get a job...That said, I've spoken to people at other M7's, and I think they mostly have 80-90% conversion rates too from what I've heard.
@compbanker do you know Booth's conversion?
Dam, I feel bad for the 6 who didn't get them, especially if they went back to school for an MBA specifically with that in mind
OpsDude, could you please give the info for AM firms??? I'm really interested in pursuing a MBA, but I don't know if the investments is worth it if I want to pursue a career in AM...
I don't have that data available, but it would be much messier anyways for two reasons; 1) ibanks recruit first, so you don't have anybody who wanted to be a banker, but got scared and accepted something else first. Not necessarily the case for AM. 2) Prior work experience is much more relevant for AM than IB, so conversion rates are far less valuable without the confounding variables.
The hardest part is actually getting into an M7. lol..
I'd say similar numbers for IB at my school. Those that didn't get it were more likely to be international. Been saying on these threads for a while now that IB is really easy to get these days from a top school. Aside from the M7, I think there are similar conversions at NYU/Duke/UVA/UM/CAL/UCLA. The recruiting process is brutal, but if you jump through the hoops you should be in good shape - assuming you are normal.
I plan to primarily recruit for consulting, but I might just throw out a few apps to top BB's without going the informal recruiting...wonder if all those hoops people jump through are necessary.
100% necessary. If you aren't 100% committed to the process don't even waste your time. I'd say its virtually impossible to even make the interview list if you don't play the game. I'd say most banks already know who they want to offer going into interviews. In my opinion a lot of the closed list interviews are just smoke and mirrors because the banks can't just interview the people they want to offer. They need to make it look like a full process. By the time interviews roll around you've likely met all the bankers on the recruiting team at preliminary on campus presentations, group trip in office presentations, phone chats, in office informational interviews, invite only dinners, on campus education presentations (ex M&A valuation), etc. You need to do all these things on a per firm basis. Firms schedule events on the say time/day to weed out "non committed" people. It's a stupid process and frankly kinda embarrassing for the industry in my opinion. Lose out on a lot of talent due to this process. A few people tried to do both but it ended up hurting both processes. Maybe a couple actually got both offers. Also, consulting final rounds are a few weeks after banks give out offers so its extremely difficult to manage that. Basically, if you are holding out for consulting with a banking offer they can't pull the offer but they will know and your group placement will likely suck.
As for the competitiveness of consulting, I'd say that that the conversion rate was substantially less, sub 50% easy. Also, despite what recruiters will say, office location plays a huge roll. NYC/SF/LA is a hell of a lot harder than ATL/DAL/DC/NJ, for example. So while banking is brutal process its easier to get in. Consulting networking isn't as bad as banking but the case prep is a colossal time suck. The problem with the case in my opinion is everything can blow up if you just make 1 or 2 minor mental math mistakes. That is also stupid in my opinion. You should choose the career path you want but just giving you some inside info.
Maybe it is too much to ask, but do you have a rough idea about conversation rate among international students? I understand some international students have culture/communication problems but not all of them do. Also do those international students have IB offer outside US like HK/London or in US?
Thanks a lot.
To preface the following, I'm not an expert and can only speak to what I observed/perceived - these are not factual statements. No idea on conversion rates but still not bad. Plenty of international get offers, probably just not at the same rate as domestic kids. For starters, some banks straight up don't sponsor internationals. As for as reasons are concerned, I'd say some of the Asian/Indian kids have a harder time making the connection. Bankers don't just want to talk about their jobs especially at these dumb events. So being able to talk about college sports, pro sports, hobbies, etc. helps. Maybe you went to the same undergrad, from the same state, etc. forming common bonds is very helpful. Not all but some of the internationals come off as stiff. Also, there seems to be a more desperate way in which they recruit/interact with recruiters because they need to job to stay in the country. I would observe some kids giving very detailed background stories that dropped numbers ("at my last job is help optimize this by zyz% saving xzy$$" as opposed to something more casual). Its just not a very conversational way of talking and is perceived as being unable to interact well in a casual setting. Too much directness is off putting. Its like dating, its a dance. You can't just ask a chick to bang you...gotta tell some jokes, listen to her stories, warm her up a bit first. Also, some peoples english isn't perfect. Some aren't dressed as sharp. This isn't meant to talk down on internationals at all - its just different culturally issues at play.
Also, as an American I don't think internationals think about it from the view point of domestic companies. Why hire an international if you can hire an American. If I move to Brazil/India/China/Argentina/etc. its going to be really hard for me to get hired over a local, so why is/should it be any different here? Its not like there aren't enough talented Americans to fill these roles. Even for consulting, what I observed is that the majority of kids that got MBB typically got them for their home region, not the US.
Similar figures at my school as well. Banking has become a dirty word, and not too many people want it. If you put in the effort, banking offers will come to you on a silver platter.
My school (top 15): 41 banking interns, 36 offers, 3 of the 5 who didn't get offers now have offers with other firms. Recruiting process is brutal, but those who stick it out almost always get an offer (only 1 or 2 that I know of last year who recruited didn't).
Are you giving the recruiting to internship conversion figure, or the internship to full time conversion figure?
36 converted from 41 internships (internship to full time). The 5 who didn't convert from internships already have offers for full time at other banks.
There seems to be a lack of information on WSO about a IB Associate Recruiting and careers. There should be a master thread on all things relating to IB Associate careers.
This post is helpful... I would also like to know how the Full-Time recruiting has been going on for schools...are banks coming on campus given that most spots are filled up by summer interns...
I've been to a few Investment Banking Groups events at Booth and it seems 99% of people who went through IB recruiting found a IB internship for the summer. Only one out of about 90 did not get an internship. The demand for banking jobs is dramatically decreasing at Booth. Most Americans received at least 3 banking summer offers.
Have the hours and such come down for post mba banking associates?
That's the important question isn't it? Are banks reacting to this by trying to at least improve the the lives of post-MBA Associates?
Because they have taken steps to improve things for the Analysts like raising the base, and at least trying to reduce the work on the weekends.
Base salary went up for post MBA offers this year (100K to 125K). Weekend rules also apply to associate and things actually look lot better than last summer. You still get crushed, just not as badly.
any idea if the increase in banking salaries will spill over to MBB starting salaries?
No idea; however, consulting salaries have been a lot higher, like 135-145, so not sure if they'd really move that needle especially given the demand.
http://www.economist.com/news/business/21623673-graduates-worlds-leadin…
At least two people in this thread had indirectly mentioned that international students have a hard time getting an IB offer - is this because they are objectively not good enough or because there are some visa issues or something like that? It used to be that M7 MBA->IB in London/NY was a typical way to emigrate for professionals from the 3rd world countries.
It's mostly a fit thing. Associates are hired with the "idea" being that they will stay on and try to make MDs. It's hard to overcome that cultural barrier and become an MD selling ideas to clients. Also, this tends to be more true for internationals from Asia who aren't always as talkative or whatever it is Americans are. Hope that didn't come off bad -- just trying to state what I've seen.
Just curious - why has banking taken such a hit, especially when compared to consulting or corporate, which are slower to advance, pay a lot less over time, and are generally far less interesting
Top 3 questions not to ask during on campus events or informational in no particular order: - What kind of training does your bank offer? - Best deal you have worked on? - Formal mentorship opportunities?
Worst move: Butt your head into the circle during a lively conversation about something totally stupid or irrelevant and ask one of the above questions. Happens every time.
Do M7 IB associates generally go to M&A or industry groups? How common is it to see them going to other product groups?
It really depends on the person. Can definitely get into M&A/ECM/DCM/LevFin if you're interested.
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