Minorities on wall street?
What do you think are the opportunities for Minorities wanting to work on Wall Street? Do you think it will be just as hard for minorities to attain work in Investment Banking compared to non-minorities?
Trending Content
| +162 | The "Not So Obvious" things that get you a return offer? | 19 | 34m | |
| +91 | Is my life over after not getting GS? | 20 | 1h | |
| +62 | Best IB group on the Street | 26 | 1h | |
| +52 | BIG FOUR ARE PARADISE | 13 | 13h | |
| +46 | Thoughts and tips on how to speak like an investment banker. | 24 | 2h | |
| +41 | Tell me one good reason why Jefferies isn’t going to be a top bank in the next 5 years | 22 | 1h | |
| +36 | UBS Outlook | 28 | 1d | |
| +35 | Georgetown Placement for 2024 and 2025 | 21 | 6d | |
| +31 | Highest Paid Bankers in Toronto? | 50 | 1d | |
| +30 | How to deal with egotistical team? | 6 | 2d |
Career Resources
You're joking right? Affirmative action galore.
Granted a moron won't get a job, but it is definitely easier.
How much easier is easier? What kind of GPA for an analyst position?
bumping...interesting topic
From what I've seen, I would say a 3.0 for a minority to get a look from a BB. I wouldnt even say that its affirmative action, its that we generally arent interested in banking, its so waspy. How many of us minorities (black kids) at ivys do you see who are majoring in business-related subjects? Pre-Med and Pre-Law and Engineering are way more common.
The BigHomie
Asians aren't considered Minorities on Wall Street, i take it
i know that at wharton they have a minority program that if you "qualify" for it, they simply place you into the top ib jobs.
that certainly is easier than for the rest of us.
know a kid. he's black ,minority program got him a summer analyst positionat GS, I swear. Granted he has alreay passed 2 of their exams.
just HIspanic/African American/American Indian that are considered minorities? somebody care to clarify
all the above
Thankfully, those who are given a fish will only eat for one day.
so true, and yet, so happy that its true.
It's a well established program that is designed to place minorities on Wall St.
Yeah, those three are UnderRepresented Minorities (URMs). Hey, I slightly understand when non-URMs complain about the "unfair advantage" and I hate how it likely makes many people automatically feel that I'm at wharton or will be at a bb firm in the future due to my race, but whatever. Even if it is an "advantage", nobody ever said that wall street is a meritocracy. A shitload of white kids get in due to connections that no black people ever had access to growing up, is that "fair"? The BigHomie
If there is one thing I learned in Econ 101 it's that open markets are driven by competition. Sure, you can put some slightly under-qualified individual in a banking position. But for the most part, reality will catch up eventually. It's science!
The white, male American is the biggest target of discrimination in today's society. Affirmative action and other diversity programs have tipped the scales too far. You mother fuckers looking for a handout sicken me.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Show me a privileged white American male who is living on welfare, because a minority took his job or place in college. All the minorities I know going into banking have great grades, a long list of ECs, and good social skills. Meanwhile I can literally think of TONS white guys from my college who used family connections or frats to get onto Wall Street, no one gives a crap about that though, huh?
Also anyone who has done SEO will notice that the majority of black people there are Africans--those kids always have high grades, they're up there with Asians. It's that immigrant thing.
Hey, don't talk shit about White Fratboys... uh, uh **thinking of a comeback...thinking of a comeback*** yeah, don't do it!.
FP175 always come up with good shit
All the minorities who got BB jobs had significantly worse grades the whites and asians. I go to a target. In fact, if I recall correctly, the percentage of minorities graduating with any kind of academic honors was much, much lower than their percentage in the student body.
Eh. Minorities and white frat boys have an advantage. Asians get screwed when applying to college and get screwed when searching for jobs, yet their numbers keep increasing. Whaddya know.
Either way, I don't care. It's not a fair, meritocratic process. Banks are looking for certain types of people to fill quotes. They can do what they want.
What's interesting is the very, very low number of minorities or frat boys at M/B/B, where frat boy connections and race mean nothing during recruiting.
I would guess the most fair way to do things would be to have everyone apply online with hidden identities, and only grades, ECs, work experience info filled out. Then everyone would be on the same playing field!
interesting. is it only ethnic or also sexual minorities (lesbian, gay, bi, trans)
i know of a tranny who works in TMT at Goldman.
LOL!!!!
Well in the UK we have to apply online, obviously they see your name though. At the end there's also some discrimination monitoring page (don't think it was called that but don't remember) which is optional, you choose your race and sex. Supposedly it is for "monitoring purposes" but I'm convinced they use it in determining who gets through, though legally they can't actually state that. I always left it blank out of principle.
fp175 you make some good OBVIOUS points...
Perfection breeds Perfection
The kid's right, the discrimination against White males is getting out of control. Don't think some of us aren't gonna fight back though. I hope to start a scholarship fund exclusively for White Males when I make it big, and my recruiting efforts are definitely gonna be biased towards them.
Yet you will be labeled a racist for doing so, while the benefactor of a scholarship aimed at minority students will be revered. Sounds fair, doesn't it?
What about white history month or white male pride parades? When will the day come that white males can stand up and be proud of their heritage without the perception of bigotry?
Dude, I don't want to stir shit up, but every month is pretty much white history month. The last time I checked we don't celebrate any non-American holidays in this country...I'm not saying we should necessarily because after all this IS America, but my point is that American history is pretty much all white male history. I mean it's pretty much all we learn up until college. The reason that people applaud scholarships for minorities is because as a whole they're worst off. I know there are plenty of poor, broke disadvantaged white guys, but compare that with the percentage of poor, broke disadvantaged minorities, and you'll see a big discrepancy.
Just my 2c.
LMAO!
Perfection breeds Perfection
Of course, a more likely explanation is that minority candidates prefer banking to consulting, at least out of undergrad.
I am just relating my experience. Anyone who's been at a M/B/B on the East coast can chime in.
most of their recruiting is for FT, the internship program is for snapping up the stronger students, which is why it is so small
The only people I know from my graduating class at M/B/B are ethnic minorities.
Plus my lover/favorite singer John Legend worked at BCG out of Penn...and this was several year ago too.
lover ? Right.....
A girl can dream...
CLEARLY...
white MALE history? LOL
Perfection breeds Perfection
White males are clearly becoming a minority. However, it's the white male who has let this happen. Just look at Congress. Affirmative action could not exist if white males voted against it.
How the fuck could anyone possibly think white males are becoming a minority? The sheer idiocy of that statement is astounding.
How come Asian are not considered as Minorities?
The percentage of college and ibank populations comprised of asians is way higher than asians' percentage of the american population. Plus, asians dont really have the same disadvantages in america as blacks and hispanics do (no need for assistance of programs). The BigHomie
What disadvantages to blacks and hispanics have vis-a-vis poor asians? Have you ever been to Flushing or Chinatown? Ever seen a NYC magnet school? There are poor immigrant families from China, Korea and the like that live there and have to make it on their own. They don't get preferential treatment for college admissions or job placement. They get discriminated against if they have even a hint of an accent. Why do blacks and hispanics deserve these opportunities more than Asians?
Either way, I don't care. They way the global economy is converging, such preferential treatment in lieu of hiring the best, most qualified, hard-working individuals will soon disappear.
Go to Seattle or San Francisco and you will realize that Asians are not a minority. Phoenix or LA and you realize hispanics are not. Everyone should nut up and quick making excuses why their race isn't as successful as the rest and go do something about the perceptions that you are perpetuating. Stop looking for a handout.
No one is looking for a handout. But as long as SEO exists, people will apply for it. Same way that as long as AKPsi or other business frats exist, people will join. Everyone wants an edge, it's not nearly the same thing as a handout. You're talking about university students with at least a 3.5 (I think that's the minimum for SEO)--hardly beggars on the street.
And for the record, I didn't use SEO or any minority programs, but am an Ivy League legacy and has a ton contacts in banking (although I didn't use them). Am I worse or better than the other minorities then?
Banking should be reserved as the sole profession of the white alpha male Elite gentleman's club.
All minorities, especially skilled asian number-crunchers should be utilized to support the White Elite' in back office operations.
Blacks and hispanics have an over 70% greater advantage over whites in entering top universities. Truly unfair.
This thread isn't going anywhere.
Minorities and Wall Street (Originally Posted: 04/20/2007)
I really hope this post doesn't get deleted, because I am not trying to simply inflame people, but want to have a real conversation about this. What percentage of minorities (non-asian) who get entry level positions in BB firms would have received the same position without relying on the color of their skin? Having met a number of minorities working in these positions, I would say 10-20% max. I guess that's just a personal opinion, but honestly I think that's as objective of an opinion as one can have. Would love to hear other thoughts on the matter if possible.
How would you really know unless you have seen the resumes and transcripts of the minorities? It's pretty screwed up that you even think about this in the first place.
What % of rich white kids with banker daddies would have gotten in without their connections?
You're right that I don't know for sure - that's why I'm asking for people's estimates. To say that's it's screwed up to even think about this is way way off base though, because I guarantee you that about ninety percent of non-connected white males trying to enter ibanking (or trying to advance up in ibanking) have thought about how much easier it would be if they weren't the race and sex that they are. In terms of rich white kids with banker daddies, I would agree that not all of them would get in if they didn't have those connections, but it would definitely be a much higher percentage. I would guess like 50-75% are qualified vs. the 10-20% of minorities who are qualified. Could be wrong though I guess....
Maybe you should give up chasing banking, and go do your PhD thesis on this idea. Why do you care, what is it to you, if the person sucks they will be fired sooner or later, there is no crappy MDs around, is there? 1mm+ hedge fun partners? You should be grateful for the path and experiences you have had in life, and not dogg the people who are given an opportunity to prove themselves.
At the end of the day, it's up to the firm to hire whoever they want. If they want to hire minorities who you (whoever YOU are) think are unqualified, surely they have a reason for it.
That having been said, I went to HYPS for undergrad and all the minorities I know who got offers had really high GPAs and most of them graduated with honors. Goldman's Scholarship for Excellence is for minorities and its a minimum GPA of 3.4--hardly unqualified if we're talking about a target.
If you are talking about qualifications based on credentials, I am way more qualified than people I know who were not minorities, and I know many people who are. Now, would many qualified minorities get jobs if banks were not forced/shamed into diversity? I don't think so. Because the bank hires through 'fit', and oh, daddy connections.
Second, I didnt get jobs through a diversity program, I went straight up. The reason it is sad minorities have to go to diversity programs to get jobs is because people normally assume you were dumber. There is also less pressure to reduce the 'fit' culture because diversity programs will fill the quota for minorities
Finally, I didn't even make the cut for SEO, even though I got a job straight up. Yes, some people might have low grades or might be from non targets, but those from targets have great credentials.
And please, try not to judge someone's intelligence by the color of their skin
Interesting post. I can't say that I agree with all of it, but I will not take the time to contest specific points. Rather, I'd like to get you personal opinion on one specific aspect of your post. You tell me not to judge people on the color of their skin. And quite frankly I try not to. But do you think there's any validity to the argument that programs such as SEO actually hurt the career prospects of a qualified minority such as yourself? Generally speaking, people will assume that if you're a minority, you got in through SEO and you're not really as qualified as a non-minority. Does that piss you off given that you didn't have to use SEO to get into a bank? I know I would be absolutely livid....
I go to a non target, public school that is heavily focused on finance in general. Due to these factors, there are a lot of students at my school who are minorities that are entering banking. From what I have seen, the candidates who receive offers are some of the smartest people, with the highest GPAs. They also have a very good work ethic due to having to overcome the slump of going to a non-target. From what I have seen, they are very well qualified. This is just my personal experience though.
Also, SEO is a very competitive program. Every single SEO student at my school also had multiple offers they obtained OUTSIDE of SEO. And the ratio of applications/offers is higher for SEO than straight up applying for my school(according to my career center).
I think the OP is clearly referring to only non-asians i.e. not Asians and Indians in his post.
Yeah...the Goldman thing I mentioned is only for black, Hispanic, and Native American students. And I was referring to black people in my post as I don't know very many Hispanic people who went for banking (for whatever reason).
I don't know why people get so defensive when this topic is brought up. Noone's trying to be racist here, he's just trying to encourage debate.
How could people not be defensive since he said only 10-20% of minorities in banking (non-Asian) deserve to be there? 80% of minorities on the Street are unqualified? That makes NO SENSE.
Yes, there are URMs (underrepresented minorities) with high GPAs from target schools who are technically qualified for banking. And I think Diamond brings up a great point that it's possible that if they're weren't diversity programs / forced affirmative action, banks would hire people who fit and inherently end up with an all white analyst class. My only problem with that suggestion is the overrepresentation of Asians and Indians in banking and especially trading - it seems that the current senior people (pretty much all of whom are white) do prefer hiring Asians and Indians more so than they'd have to in order to maintain diversity. An easy objection to this statement, though, is the differing history of Asians/Indians and blacks in this country - the history of discrimination against blacks may still prevail into negative attitudes towards blacks rather than simply negative attitutes towards minorities in general. I'm not really sure which statement is true, though, and I don't think anyone can be.
The problem is, though, that there just aren't ENOUGH technically (GPA-wise + target school) qualified minorities. This is the reason why there needs to be affirmative action in elite colleges, otherwise black (and hispanic) representation would plummet. There was a study done recently that showed that 4 out of 5 seats at elite colleges held by black students would have gone to Asian students if there was no affirmative action (I'm not sure if the 5th seat would have gone to a white student or was earned by the black student). And the problem is self-perpetuating - 18-year old minorities arrive at a college where they just cannot compete, and earn low GPAs. There have been plenty of studies showing this - that the vast majority of black law students are in the bottom half of their class, etc. So the banks obviously hire the minority of black students who are qualified (based on GPA + school) for the jobs, but that's not enough, so they have to lower their standards and hire unqualified (based on GPA + school) minorities. Just look at your resume book this summer - there will probably be 10-15% of your analyst class that is black, and about 20% of those students will actually be on par with the rest of the class GPA + school wise.
It's an unfortunate problem, especially for the minorities who actually do have the stats necessary to get the jobs without AA, since inevitably white/Asian/Indian people are going to assume that AA helped you get the job and you're inherently less qualified than your fellow analysts - sorry to say. But eliminating AA isn't really a viable solution either since banks need to keep up quotas and black analyst numbers would plummet if everyone had to be hired based on GPA + school.
If you want an easy example - just look at where banks recruit at. About 10 top schools (ivys + stanford + MIT + Duke etc.) and then Howard, Morehouse, and Spelman - the average SAT score at those HBCU schools is at or below the national average (1000 based on the 1600 scale). Now I know the banks aren't hiring the average Howard student, but if there wasn't a shortage of qualified black students there'd be no need to actually recruit at those places in the hopes of taking students in the top 10% there.
That's just a number he's putting out there for debate.
I'm trying to think about my graduating class. I know one Black kid going to GS IB, Varsity BB player, 3.2 GPA, really sociable guy and I would say he definitely deserves it.
But I'm pretty sure he's the only Black kid going to a BB from my school.
They hire Asians and Indians because they're more qualified in most cases, plain and simple.
That's a good point. My friends on SEO said the majority of black people in the program were Nigerians--either straight off the boat or their parents were.
"Straight off the boat." That sounds like something an African would say:). I'm Nigerian, btw and I can assure you that traveling by sea is a primitive mode of transportation seeing as there is a new invention that sort of looks like an "iron bird" and soars magically through the sky. Don't know what it's really called.
The thing about this industry as it seems to me (I will be interning at a BB this summer) is that its very much based on a meritocratic system. Its Darwinism in there so regardless of who the banks hire - if the person does not cut it, whether said person is white, black, yellow, green, etc. they will be weeded out.
From the earlier posts, I have seen a lot of speculative numbers thrown out there. Seriously, you cannot back that up but I guess I understand the point you guys are trying to make. One possible reason for the discrepancy in racial compositions in banks is the nature of the industry in itself. It is one that is predominantly created and run by white males. Therefore, it would naturally make the fence even higher to climb for minorities as compared to other industries. This however, does not signify that minorities are not as prepared as non-minorities. If the student is qualified, then he/she will be given an offer. I think the issue arises when banks begin to hire individuals who will not benefit the company as much as another, more qualified student, but the offer is made based on race (AA). It is true, based on pure numbers, minorities are very underrepresented but it does not justify trying to overcompensate by hiring under-qualified individuals REGARDLESS OF RACE. Perhaps quotas are too high?
I know that for the most part, minorities and non-minorities at my school all compete on a level playing field. As far as hiring minorities from a target school, I believe the effects of AA should be diluted. The opportunities are there. As for students attending non-targets, that is where banks should break the "target" nonsense and truly find diamonds in the rough. The effects of social disparities are still present and still affect individuals today. It is very possible to recruit excellent talent from these schools. Just because kids (minorities) did not have the opportunity to attend a "target" does not mean they are not qualified for work at a BB. These are the kids who struggled most of their lives to overcome barriers, whether financial, social, etc. and have succeeded. This is the true essence of AA.
Haha, I actually had straight off the boat on my post but changed it to straight from Africa. so natural for me to say so. (Only Im not nigerian)
we need affirmative action for dinosaurs.
How about kids with daddy's connection? and about frat boys with crappy gpa and skills who get in by ' fit' interviewed by fratboy interviewers... Some things seems to be unfair , just ignore it, it's a waste of energy
Guess this will get argued forever... In London at interviews I often felt a bit odd in that I was one of the few white males in a few instances when talking about a group of 20-30, yet all the interviewers themselves were white males. Sure flame me if you want, but it was so obvious at the time that I wondered what was going on.
"My only problem with that suggestion is the overrepresentation of Asians and Indians in banking and especially trading - it seems that the current senior people (pretty much all of whom are white) do prefer hiring Asians and Indians more so than they'd have to in order to maintain diversity"
what about just hiring the most qualified/best person based on whatever criteria the bank is using?
I am one of the biggest proponents of free speech, as long as it remains articulate, incorporates historical fact and is demonstrative of a higher intellectual debate that is taking place. As such, it's amazing how this post began as a generalization of minorities and quickly shifted to those opinions and comments weighing in disproportionately and offensively on AA's. - Fact.
In a perfect world, the best man or woman would be afforded the best opportunities. However we don't live in a perfect world. Although many of us have not experienced such, or are ignorant to: there are gender biases, racial inequities and scores of other forms of bigotry.
I believe that those individuals who hail from the country of India and those of Asian descent, and even direct African descent, are more readily accepted given their limited historical background in relationship to the US, their cultural understanding of the profound importance of education, and the current macro-economic business iniatives that are focused on some of these regions...
AA's and White's within this country have been engaged in a melee spanning centuries before a healthy Indian/Asian population began to settle within America. As a result, many non AA minorities don't fully understand the history behind many of the present day social disagreements within our country and consequently, may tend to agree with arguments that oppose affirmative action or related programs designed to bring a small degree of parity where the environments will never be perfect.
With that being said, as long as we have individuals that make the sweeping generalizations that I have witnessed on this thread and the bevy of racially insensitive comments that are strewn under this post, social reform will indeed be difficult to come by. However, I do think as bankers, what we do with our wealth and the opportunities we can create with such means for others who are not as privileged or may be culturally disimilar from us, are certainly steps in the right direction.
Nice ending to the topic...nychimp, can you please lock.
Minorities on the Street (Originally Posted: 07/30/2008)
I hear a lot about minorities and there advantages in getting into SA programs and Sophomore Rotationals, Is the Indian male considered a minority on Wall Street?
Just like college admissions, being an Indian male will not help you at all. It might actually hurt you if you have to compete with all the other Asian males with stereotypical characteristics (smart, competitive workhorses) for the same job. No, Asians are not considered a minority, but from my impression of Wall Street, being Asian won't hold you back as much as in other jobs/fields. It definitely will not get you in.
just remember, "diversity" means you weren't qualified to be there
holy shit, that's gotta hurt.
Well, I could be wrong, but I believe diversity is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era.
I certainly don't think Indians are considered a minority on the street. At my UG program, a good amount of aspiring bankers are Indian. Probably just as many Indians as Caucasians in our intensive IB study.
Yeah indians aren't considered minorities.
But would you really want to get in w/ a diversity stamp? I'd imagine others would look down upon you.
I don't know - just my opinion.
I am not saying that I want to get in with the Diversity stamp, just wondering where indians fit into the equation
what about korean-americans are they considered a minority in Ibanking? and how many korean-americans are represented in associaate/vp/md? Also which firms are best to work for if you are a korean-american.
Nope, Indians don't qualify as diversity (can't say why). Other Asian origin people do (Chinese, Vietnamese etc etc). In America the only people who don't get any sort of affirmative action are Indians and Caucasian males.
"just remember, "diversity" means you weren't qualified to be there"
Could not agree more with you. This same problem has plagued the Indian education system back home too.
what a joke statement. the differentiation between segments of those considered "asian" is appreciated, but south and east asians are all in the same boat in terms of not being considered underrepresented minorities. southeast asians generally are URM, technically speaking, but the actual benefit is probably minimal, given the relative ignorance of the different socioeconomic backgrounds (generally speaking, of course) of east asians and south asians as compared to those from southeast asia.
..
you racist f**ks.
Diversity is not about being given a free ride. If you have a 1000+ firm full of calcasian males, what happens when your competing for business with more diverse firms when the client identifies with a certain group?
When international firms do business in Africa/Asia but have no employees from there, do you think they stand a chance going agains another firm that does?
When a group of all white males are sitting around a table who would bring up ideas based on life experiences as a woman/asian/african?
All people who get into positions using diversity are qualified. They just get the job because the firm already has enough WHITE, MALE, IVY, 4.0 applicants. Now they are looking for a BLACK, MALE, IVY, 4.0 applicant who can bring a different perspective.
How many of you fools know anything about investing in Africa? When you guys are done with China, what do you think is next? What firm do you think would be best placed to reach that market if you only have WHITE, MALE, IVY, 4.0 employees.
I mean, ive been on this site since it started up, but now its filled with too many people licking their accomplishments....starting to smell themselves too much. Its not anyone's fault you live in a country where everyone looks like you. You want to get an advantage with Diversity? Move to Africa!
Dude, you are an ass clown! In your world the term diversity might mean all the craziness you are spewing but that would lead me to believe you aren't a white male and have never searched for scholarships for school. I understand that the concept of diversity in a corporation might fit you idealized version, but not in the real world. I don't know any IBs that hire white males because they want to know where to invest next in America, they hire them because they can run spreads and comps and work their ass to the bone. I have seen plenty of situations where "reverse racism" has occurred because it was a firm's intention to diversify in order to meet some requirements, thus leaving better qualified white males behind.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of equally (and better) qualified minorities who would do just as well at a firm that a white male could due, but what the other posters are referring too is when someone less qualified gets the position simply to meet some standards.
If you don't think "diversification" is a form of discrimination or that a person's skin color and/or gender doesn't matter, just ask yourself why a business would have "minority owned" or "female owned" plastered all over their marketing materials and why there are actually certifications for those two groups.
Lol as if the work in investment banking is rocket science.
If you can read and do middle school mathematics, you are qualified.
The self-deepthroating really needs to stop.
Should we turn this otherwise useless thread around, and go back to the mid-rant
"investing in Africa? When you guys are done with China, what do you think is next?"
My guess is India, Pakistan, Eastern Europe, Russia... In fact, I would say that Africa will only beat Antarctica in terms of future investment. While Africa is rich in natural resources, China and the West don't seem to have any problem developing those resources now. The lack of political stability in the most African countries and social problems such as corruption and lack of infrastructure mean that Africa is always going to be 'the next big thing' that never happens.
Personally, I think it's just too hot to put on a suit and tie.
Africa is so big and diverse that you can't even begin to put it in one box. Here are some countries to add to your list for now: Nigeria, South Africa and Egypt. Nigeria and Egypt are listed as part of Goldman Sachs' "Next 11", and by 2050 Nigeria is projected to have the 11th largest GDP, behind Germany and England and above the likes of France and South Korea. This is with all of the current corruption, imagine if the economy begins to be run more efficiently?
We also have to keep in mind that the oldest republics in Africa are just over 50 years, and hence these countries still have a lot of growing up to do and self determination to carry out, with that bumps in the road can be expected.
I'd also avoid the folly of painting Africa as one big war zone, there are some hot spots, but these are few and far in between, and many countries are ticking along quietly. African economies are going to be among the only ones not hit by the global slowdown, and you have places like Botswana which has been growing at roughly 9% a year since the 60s, and has had one of the fastest growth rates in per capita income since independence.
The infrastructure is there in some places, and in some it isn't. The Chinese are building a lot of infrastructure, and only 7% of this is to aid in the extraction of resources. There is also a large amount of corruption in BRIC countries, so the idea that you can't have development in the presence of corruption doesn't stand.
Africa is a very complex picture and I'll be the first to admit that it faces many challenges, but to suggest that it will come second-last to Antarctica is somewhat of an oversimplification. Then again, such ideological arrogance from the western perspective is nothing new, so I can't say I'm surprised.
"just remember, "diversity" means you weren't qualified to be there"
I bet 70% of the kids on the street wouldn't be there if they grew up poor.
Why do people think success is 100% based off merit? Lets not pretend like 300 years of high margin business didn't give the "Majority" one hell of an advantage. I'm sure we all know the power of compounded interest.
It's unfortunate that you used Nigeria as your example, because while it is the fraud and corruption capital of the world, it also happens to be the only African country that my family has lived in, so have a pretty good idea of it's cultural and political situation first hand. While Nigeria has a booming GDP (along with the price of oil), it paints my picture of natural resources being the only attractive reason to do business in Africa.
It's obvious that Nigeria is over-reliant on oil, meaning as soon as the google guys finally invent an economic source of alternative energy Nigeria will fall into the dark ages. You think the Shell guys that work there are going to stick around, considering they get kidnapped about every six months off the oil platforms?
Botswana is another prime exmaple - yes, they have an extremely strong fiscal policy, which has allowed them to develop their economy over the last few decades, but from what? Diamonds. 50% of the government revenues are attributable to one joint venture mining company alone.
I guess the other thing that boosts the African economy is tourism, but there are very few countries world wide that can use tourism alone to prop up their economies, bar the ridiculously small ones.
I guess my point is that for a continent the size of Africa, you would expect world leading industries, multinational companies, significant exports that are non-resource related, centres of excellence for medicine or technology...
You are very right in saying that Africa can't be painted with one brush, no continent can, but can you see any other continent receiving less investment than Africa as a whole? Definitely not Asia, Europe or North America. So what are you left with, South America maybe? I still back places like Brazil over Nigeria any day of the week.
And I don't think favouring one non-Western country over another is "Western arrogance"? That doesn't even make sense.
if you want to see 'Wester Arrogance' have a flick through this
http://www.petersmap.com/
It's what the world map would look like if it was done by area (i.e. not skewed by the view you get looking at a sphere side on)...
"Botswana is another prime exmaple - yes, they have an extremely strong fiscal policy, which has allowed them to develop their economy over the last few decades, but from what? Diamonds. 50% of the government revenues are attributable to one joint venture mining company alone."
Botswana also has the benefit of not having lots of warring tribes.
and bbb, dont you then think that hiring should be race-blind?
So what if you lived in Nigeria? Just because you lived there doesn't take away from the statistics, or make you more knowledgeable than research coming out of GS.
More time is the simple answer. As I said early on, many of these counties are still very young, so it is unfair to automatically declare them failures at such an early age. Look at the history of the BRIC countries, these success stories did not happen over night, they have had their fair share of mismanagement that caused suffering on a mass scale.
We can even look at the USA, Thomas Jefferson wrote the declaration of independence in 1776, but it took nearly 200 years for universal suffrage to be fully realised.
What I'm trying to show is that time is a key element, and the length of the human lifespan means that sometimes we do not truly appreciate it on the proper scale. Therefore to suggest that a 50 year old country should be achieving all these magnificent things, and if it hasn't it is forever destined for failure is rather naive, and doesn't truly acknowledge the role that time plays in the formation of a strong nation.
On this issue of over reliance on natural resources, you are right. I would say however, that the world's dependence on oil is not going to end soon, and even if alternative energy sources are tamed, it will be many decades before this technology can trickle to every corner of the planet. The developed world might make the change quickly, but the developing world shall be burning oil for many more years to come. So I do not think Nigeria has anything to worry about in that regard.
We are starting to see gradual reform in many places in Africa, as many governments see the trend, and know they can't rely on natural resources forever. South Africa is now a world leader in the manufacturing of mining equipment and machinery and synthetic fuels, just from memory. The Nigerian government since 2003 has been deregulating the country and opening it up to privatization - moves that take time to bear fruit. They ignored their manufacturing and agricultural sectors in the 80s, but are now beginning to pay more attention to these areas.
If I had to sum up Africa in one sentence, I would say 2 steps forward, 1 step back. The media likes to focus on the 1 step back most of the time. This idea that there is nothing but minerals in Africa is incorrect, and some investors are willing to put their money where their mouth is.
One area that is expanding is telecommunications, since 2000 Africa has been the fastest growing mobile phone market in the world. This year they just had the largest IPO in Sub Saharan Africa’s history for Kenya's Safaricom, a mobile network. There is also MTN Group in South Africa, another telecommunications company, operating in Africa and the Middle East - 21 countries altogether. Bharti Airtel in India just tried to buy a 51% stake for $19 billion, which would have been the largest overseas acquisition ever by an Indian firm.
On the issue of kidnappings, nothing new there. You are just as likely to get kidnapped in Mexico City or Rio. Many developing nations have dangerous cities. That's what happens when you have many people living in poverty.
I've gone on long enough, but quickly on this issue of arrogance: You have this old paternalistic view of Africa being nothing but a mining ground, and once those natural resources are exhausted the Western messiah shall depart from Africa with all its money, leaving it to fall into a "dark age". That doesn't seem arrogant to you?
South Africa was never the "typical" african country, and it continues to sink further and further into disrepair and anarchy. how does 6 hours a day of now power sound to you, forecast to last through 2014. believe me, it ain't fun. and if that doesnt get you, the carjacking and murder will. And in africa, never underestimate the tribalism.
These countries may be young in the sense of "nationhood" but it's quite different from the US back in the 1700s. They're young in the same way the middle east is young, with various tribes who have lived and fought each other for centuries but are only recently identified as belonging to such and such political state.
Nigeria is the world leader in internet scams. A bunch of thieves, in general. And if you dont believe me, speak to a south african....there is opportunity in Africa, but tremendous hurdles that a westerner is simply not used to.
Well firstly, it's the chinese who will do most of the digging there in the future, so it would be 'Eastern Messiah'. And anyways, we can agree to disagree and I guess see who is right in 50 years (let's just hope this thread never gets deleted!).
I agree on the telecoms things though - prime example of technological leapfrogging, although most third world countries are going straight to cell phones these days. Pretty sure Carlos' $50bn fortune from Mexico's airwaves is more significant, although surely no one here can proclaim Mexico is going to have the GDP of Germany!?
Anyways, there will always be exceptions to the rule, but my initial comment was about development/investment in Africa lagging every other continent bar antarctica. And who knows, maybe they will find oil reserves in the ice and prove us all wrong!
I knew this thread would turn into a rant but whatever, I need to sound off. Look, affirmative action sounds somewhat acceptable in theory but the way it is applied is grossly inappropriate. First off, it helps out way too many Nigerians and 1st or 2nd generation Africans living in America. If the point of AA is to help blacks whose ancestors were enslaved, then it fails. I'm not saying that these guys (Africans in America as opposed to African-Americans) are the majority but they are still present. And, diversity recruiting at Ivies? If you're at an Ivy, you should be assumed to have enough skills and grit to make it through on your own merit. Also, a black kid from the ghetto...who works hard...who makes it into ibanking (w/ some AA help) -> that is totally acceptable in my opinion. But, you fucking idiot, this guy will know as much shit about Eritrea as the white guy next to him. He doesn't represent the firm to the locals.
And I only know about Eritrea b/c I was the nerdy kid in quizbowl.
It is all well and good to speak of merit, and to single out diversity recruiting, but please let's not act as if the everyone else attained these jobs due to their intellectual capabilities.
I do not have enough fingers to count the number of wealthy kids or frat brothers that I know who secured full-time investment banking jobs due to who they or their parents know despite the fact that their "qualifications" were not up to par.
That is the nature of the game. Deal with it.
Absolutely. Heres to hoping that Iran doesn't bomb us to bits before then and that WSO will still be alive and kicking.
I forgot to add: Funny you should mention Mexico, coz it's also included in the "Next 11" and by 2050 it is projected to be ranking 5th in terms of GDP, just below Brazil, and above Russia. Germany will apparently be sitting well below Mexico at no.10. Th highest ranked European country will be UK at 9.
As with any forecasts you have to take with a pinch of salt, but interesting times we live in nonetheless. I don't think there has ever been a time when the top 5 was devoid of a European country. I guess by then the Eurozone will be a well oiled machine anyways.
Source: http://www.chicagogsb.edu/alumni/clubs/pakistan/docs/next11dream-march%…
Minorities in S&T (Originally Posted: 02/08/2007)
As an Indian American (NOT American Indian) thinking of Sales and Trading after MBA (at Cornell), what are some firms that you see more minorities on the floor? And sorry, when I say minority, I don't mean Black or Female. I ask because at the Bank I am right now, most of the people I see on the floor are white or white-jewish. I am not stereotyping, just my observation.
Also, what are firms with good Emerging Market groups?
Oh I see, you want to know how many Indians are on the floor? Just title your post that b/c you've just named a bunch of minority groups (Black, female, jewish) and specifically excluded them which is bizarre.
it's probably pretty similar firm to firm. amongst 'minorities' i'd say indians are better represented than either blacks or females.
Jimbo, thanks for the input. Also, to clarify, I excluded them because I feel there are already provisions for them. When I meant minority, I meant Indian (like you noted), Hispanic, and other Asians. Perhaps this is wrong but this is where I was coming from. Next time Ill choose my words more carefully :-)
Huh? Indians are not well-represented at the higher levels (it's still mostly white males) but this is slowly changing. At the place I interned at last summer, the trading group next to mine was run by a 30-something Indian guy.
Indians are very well represented at the analyst and associate level at pretty much every bank I've seen..I'm really surpirsed to hear that you don't think so. It's true, though, that white Jewish males are really, really, really overrepresented and blacks and hispanics are still underrepresented. But think about it - banks have all sorts of affirmative action programs (SEO, recruiting at historically black schools with subpar academics relative to the normal ivy target schools, preferentially hiring blacks and hispanics with lower grades and from worse schools) but they do none of this for Indians. There is a really problem with getting black, hispanic, and Native American employees into banks and the banks make huge efforts to correct this. But they make no such efforts to recruit Indians. That tells me that Indians are represented just fine.
According to Wikipedia, 75% of the US population is white. Would you say more than 3/4 of your peers are white?
rickets, you make a good point.
cervantes, i still don't get your point. there are no affirmative action type programs for jews and asians. are you asking if any firm has such a program? or just which have a lot of indians? i haven't worked at many places, but there are definitely a bunch of indians here. very smart guys. also a fair number of jews (though other shops probably are more 'jewish' than mine). also very smart guys.
I'm pretty sure Indians can do SEO...
yeah fp they can
At my bank white American males probably represent less than 1/2 the population. At the trading floors that focus more on derivatives and hire alot of MBAs you'll see a huge number of Asians and Indians, and a lot of people who are white, but non-US (Easter European in particular). Look at MBA programs these days--the top schools are almost 1/2 international, of which a huge chunk is Indian.
Rerum cum excepturi enim magnam qui non molestiae. Illum impedit corporis omnis molestiae nulla totam quia dolores. Minima minus est fugit. Asperiores fugiat ullam eius error sint vel. Voluptatem repudiandae architecto iusto totam velit vero minus vel.
Illum assumenda cupiditate ullam laboriosam aut praesentium ullam. Fugit nihil molestiae sapiente ut quae rerum. Non architecto repellat quia quia eum. Similique optio aut non odit omnis excepturi atque. Ut nesciunt in veritatis commodi sunt id quibusdam assumenda. A eum sint sit nulla neque.
Quod dolorum iste est ipsum. Nulla fugiat enim et iste dolorum. Rerum minus assumenda aliquid dolore et voluptas.
Placeat id voluptate dolorum eum quis et. Ut et alias quod et soluta vel. Nisi similique labore voluptate.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Quidem animi omnis eos nesciunt et dicta. Sapiente non molestiae quisquam ut laborum laudantium repellendus. Sint numquam blanditiis et voluptas accusamus cum esse.
Culpa alias ullam excepturi. Dignissimos assumenda et modi eligendi. Iusto ipsam rem repudiandae sit et est doloremque. Provident ut ipsam est quos. Nihil dolores tempora neque laboriosam suscipit.
Esse molestiae quia magnam rerum dolores. Fuga consequuntur nobis incidunt unde. Corporis omnis nulla sunt voluptatem sit.
Deleniti sint perspiciatis perspiciatis ut velit. Aliquam rerum nulla rerum et voluptatem cum omnis.
Est cumque qui aperiam quaerat. Ducimus vel rem enim a deleniti numquam. Error sunt natus doloribus fugit. Nobis iusto magni voluptatem et nobis soluta quibusdam.
Omnis nam sint voluptatem. Et dolor aut voluptate voluptatem deleniti quae. Quo rerum minima maxime nostrum esse enim. Et aut totam possimus quisquam voluptates deleniti omnis. Quod accusamus quas occaecati.
Sit itaque temporibus voluptatem voluptatem odit error sint. Harum dolorum omnis dolor quibusdam. Qui quia enim cum illum ullam ea. Non eum consequatur non sint.
Aut enim ipsa ratione voluptatem libero ut incidunt. Voluptatem odio officiis corporis eligendi. Quo sint autem ipsam numquam molestiae modi aut. Est rerum magni modi adipisci rem repudiandae eius. Iusto consectetur error omnis quia hic deserunt.
Ipsam eos ipsum explicabo est cum ullam non reiciendis. Esse aliquam sequi quisquam ut. Saepe nemo sed vel sint. Impedit animi ut libero qui nulla hic.
Voluptatem aut neque eum culpa. Est excepturi rem et voluptates cum in. Ratione nulla officiis molestiae et.
Doloremque consectetur quasi perspiciatis et unde ut doloribus mollitia. Commodi totam delectus sed ea consequuntur excepturi. Molestias explicabo asperiores veritatis voluptatem quis iure. Dignissimos aut velit deserunt. Ut sit quo aspernatur sed quis illo ullam laudantium. Ipsum et magnam sapiente dolorem tempore tempore.