2/11/11

Never in my life did I believe this day would come, a stalwart of tyranny came crashing down today - President Hosni Mubarak bowed to the will of the people and resigned. This gives me great hope for the future of the Muslim world, hopefully democracy will follow in all of these surrounding countries.

Though there are a few complications that were brought about by his resignation - such as the fact that they cannot change the constitution that heavily favors the government - I think all these issues will be resolved. God willing, Egypt will become a beacon for democracy in the Arab world in the manner Bush hoped Iraq to be. I am a Muslim and strongly believe that Islam, democracy, human rights, and the rule of law are very compatible. I just hope that the rest of the Muslim world embraces that truth.

Without a doubt, this is the happiest day in my life so far. I have hope for a region that I love so much, but have seen oppressed for far too long.

Comments (75)

2/11/11

Finally been waiting for him to give up, lets hope that now Egypt doesn't go into chaos

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2/11/11

2/11/11

Nothing has changed yet. He has many people behind him.

2/11/11

I'm totally stoked about this. Hoping it causes a domino effect throughout the ME.

2/11/11
Edmundo Braverman:

I'm totally stoked about this. Hoping it causes a domino effect throughout the ME.

Would love it if that happened, although that would probably mean things for us get bad in the short-term at least

2/11/11
loki276:
Edmundo Braverman:

I'm totally stoked about this. Hoping it causes a domino effect throughout the ME.

Would love it if that happened, although that would probably mean things for us get bad in the short-term at least

When you say us, do you mean us Americans ? I can't see how this could possibly be bad at all. Especially since the Muslim brotherhood is not nearly as radical as fox news would have you believe. There will be democracy, rule of law, and freedom of worship in Egypt. I say that with conviction, the people will accept nothing less; not after all the deaths, not after all that they have been through and this country was put through.

2/11/11
monyet:
loki276:
Edmundo Braverman:

I'm totally stoked about this. Hoping it causes a domino effect throughout the ME.

Would love it if that happened, although that would probably mean things for us get bad in the short-term at least

When you say us, do you mean us Americans ? I can't see how this could possibly be bad at all. Especially since the Muslim brotherhood is not nearly as radical as fox news would have you believe. There will be democracy, rule of law, and freedom of worship in Egypt. I say that with conviction, the people will accept nothing less; not after all the deaths, not after all that they have been through and this country was put through.

I'll start off by saying that I'm happy that dickless dictator is gone.

2/11/11

The protests have already echoed around the Middle East, with several of the region's autocratic rulers making pre-emptive gestures of democratic reform to avert their own protest movements. The lesson many took: If it could happen in three weeks in Egypt, where Mubarak's lock on power had appeared unshakable, it could happen anywhere.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt

2/11/11

I get the feeling that a lot of my friends and I will be extending our long vacation in the middle east

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

2/11/11

Hopefully Suleiman doesn't get the job. He's a bad man. Hopefully they get a young, secular, business-type that's looking to modernize the country.

2/11/11

arab governments must be shaking in their boots

2/11/11

The headline should truly read "Egypt is now open for Islamist militants to gain control"

Best Response
2/11/11
IamObama:

The headline should truly read "Egypt is now open for Islamist militants to gain control"

That's just foolish. Are the people of Egypt religious? Yes. Does the muslim brotherhood identify strongly with Islam? Yes. Does that mean that there will be an Islamic take over of Egypt? No, obviously not. Here is why:

1. Even if we assume the Muslim brotherhood is as fundamentalist as you imply, they are not, they would not be able to impose an Islamic state in Egypt as the military would never stand for that. The military receives $ 2 billion in US aid, they aren't going to do anything that would jeopardize that. Though they military is very religious, they are also secular, the two are not mutually exclusive.

2. The Muslim brotherhood itself does not want to make an Iranian styled Islamic state. Much the same way American politicians, including our own president, claim to be guided by judeo-christian values, values that Islam shares, members of the Muslim brotherhood are also influenced by their religion, and there is nothing to be ashamed of with that. They do not want to make the state into a theocracy, but they do believe that Islamic principles can help guide their policy decisions. They themselves have stated that they would not allow any religious authority to have power over parliament, it will remain secular. The Muslim brotherhood renounced violence and, in line with true islamic tradition passed down from the prophet - a tradition that is sadly not followed in the muslim world, is seeking democratic elections. They have towed that line faithfully for 30 years, I doubt they will change. In fact, Al Qaeda and Hamas etc, hate the Muslim brotherhood because it proves them wrong. This Egyptian revolution proves them wrong. It achieved in 18 days with non-violent means what 40 years of terrorist attacks could not. Al Qaeda has lost all credibility thanks to this. The fact of the matter is, the Mubarak regime purposefully portrayed the Muslim brotherhood as some terrorist organization just to gain support from gullible westerners, this is not accurate.

For the past 30 years their most notable acts have been helping the poor through social programs - ooohh, so scary. What makes them scary is that they are not afraid to identify themselves as Muslims, that does not make them bad people. There are many principles in Islam that I hold dear as an American. Democracy and Islam are absolutely compatible. In fact, I would go further and suggest that Islam advocates it. Do a little reading and take your heads out of the gutter, Islam is not some evil concoction that some bigots may believe it to be. If Islamic principles are understood and applied correctly, something that many muslims fail to do, and almost every single muslim government also fails to do, then I think it is a tremendous force for good. I am proud to call myself a muslim and an American. I love this country every bit as much as you all do. In my purview, Islam as practiced in Saudi and like countries in not true islam at all, cultural prejudices have been fed into it and the whole thing has been unfairly blanketed as islam. Where in islam does it refuse women to drive for instance when the prophet's own wife was also his boss and drove caravans? And females rode horses? before you criticize islam, do a little research on it.

3. The Muslim brotherhood, though formidable, is just one of many players in a powerful opposition. They have accepted this and have said so themselves. To govern, they will necessarily have to collaborate with secularists, and copts. So that will temper any radicalism, radicalism that I believe does not exist.

If I had a vote, would I vote for the brotherhood? No. my personal choice would be Amr Moussa or Wael Ghonim - the face of this revolution and the "young, secular, business type" you want. The guy heads up Google's middle east marketing branch.

2/11/11
monyet:
IamObama:

The headline should truly read "Egypt is now open for Islamist militants to gain control"

That's just foolish. Are the people of Egypt religious? Yes. Does the muslim brotherhood identify strongly with Islam? Yes. Does that mean that there will be an Islamic take over of Egypt? No, obviously not. Here is why:

1. Even if we assume the Muslim brotherhood is as fundamentalist as you imply, they are not, they would not be able to impose an Islamic state in Egypt as the military would never stand for that. The military receives $ 2 billion in US aid, they aren't going to do anything that would jeopardize that. Though they military is very religious, they are also secular, the two are not mutually exclusive.

2. The Muslim brotherhood itself does not want to make an Iranian styled Islamic state. Much the same way American politicians, including our own president, claim to be guided by judeo-christian values, values that Islam shares, members of the Muslim brotherhood are also influenced by their religion, and there is nothing to be ashamed of with that. They do not want to make the state into a theocracy, but they do believe that Islamic principles can help guide their policy decisions. They themselves have stated that they would not allow any religious authority to have power over parliament, it will remain secular. The Muslim brotherhood renounced violence and, in line with true islamic tradition passed down from the prophet - a tradition that is sadly not followed in the muslim world, is seeking democratic elections. They have towed that line faithfully for 30 years, I doubt they will change. In fact, Al Qaeda and Hamas etc, hate the Muslim brotherhood because it proves them wrong. This Egyptian revolution proves them wrong. It achieved in 18 days with non-violent means what 40 years of terrorist attacks could not. Al Qaeda has lost all credibility thanks to this. The fact of the matter is, the Mubarak regime purposefully portrayed the Muslim brotherhood as some terrorist organization just to gain support from gullible westerners, this is not accurate.

For the past 30 years their most notable acts have been helping the poor through social programs - ooohh, so scary. What makes them scary is that they are not afraid to identify themselves as Muslims, that does not make them bad people. There are many principles in Islam that I hold dear as an American. Democracy and Islam are absolutely compatible. In fact, I would go further and suggest that Islam advocates it. Do a little reading and take your heads out of the gutter, Islam is not some evil concoction that some bigots may believe it to be. If Islamic principles are understood and applied correctly, something that many muslims fail to do, and almost every single muslim government also fails to do, then I think it is a tremendous force for good. I am proud to call myself a muslim and an American. I love this country every bit as much as you all do. In my purview, Islam as practiced in Saudi and like countries in not true islam at all, cultural prejudices have been fed into it and the whole thing has been unfairly blanketed as islam. Where in islam does it refuse women to drive for instance when the prophet's own wife was also his boss and drove caravans? And females rode horses? before you criticize islam, do a little research on it.

3. The Muslim brotherhood, though formidable, is just one of many players in a powerful opposition. They have accepted this and have said so themselves. To govern, they will necessarily have to collaborate with secularists, and copts. So that will temper any radicalism, radicalism that I believe does not exist.

If I had a vote, would I vote for the brotherhood? No. my personal choice would be Amr Moussa or Wael Ghonim - the face of this revolution and the "young, secular, business type" you want. The guy heads up Google's middle east marketing branch.

It sounds to like you are trying to make the Muslim Brotherhood come off as some organization that is built on peace. Who did they assassinate in 1948 and then try again in 1954? What factions branched off from the brotherhood and are now well know terrorist cells? Please don't try to sell us that they are some community organizing peaceful organization. I have nothing against Islam, I have friends that are Muslims.

2/12/11
monyet:

2. The Muslim brotherhood itself does not want to make an Iranian styled Islamic state. Much the same way American politicians, including our own president, claim to be guided by judeo-christian values, values that Islam shares, members of the Muslim brotherhood are also influenced by their religion, and there is nothing to be ashamed of with that. They do not want to make the state into a theocracy, but they do believe that Islamic principles can help guide their policy decisions. They themselves have stated that they would not allow any religious authority to have power over parliament, it will remain secular. The Muslim brotherhood renounced violence and, in line with true islamic tradition passed down from the prophet - a tradition that is sadly not followed in the muslim world, is seeking democratic elections. They have towed that line faithfully for 30 years, I doubt they will change. In fact, Al Qaeda and Hamas etc, hate the Muslim brotherhood because it proves them wrong. This Egyptian revolution proves them wrong. It achieved in 18 days with non-violent means what 40 years of terrorist attacks could not. Al Qaeda has lost all credibility thanks to this. The fact of the matter is, the Mubarak regime purposefully portrayed the Muslim brotherhood as some terrorist organization just to gain support from gullible westerners, this is not accurate

Noted.

Get busy living

2/11/11

with all this change in the middle east soon israel will be the only country in the region that's not a democracy

2/11/11
arden:

with all this change in the middle east soon israel will be the only country in the region that's not a democracy

I assume that this is some thinly veiled anti-Israel nonsense, since Israel is a parliamentary republic...like Germany for example

Reality hits you hard, bro...

2/12/11
MMBinNC:
arden:

with all this change in the middle east soon israel will be the only country in the region that's not a democracy

I assume that this is some thinly veiled anti-Israel nonsense, since Israel is a parliamentary republic...like Germany for example

half of the people in the area israel is sovereign over aren't given a right to vote and are routinely murdered, oppressed, and treated like animals. a democracy is where everyone can vote. and no, discriminatorily labeling half the people in your sovereign territory as "non-citizens" and yet continuing to control their land for no apparent reason does not make it any better

2/12/11
arden:

with all this change in the middle east soon israel will be the only country in the region that's not a democracy

You are disgusting. Seriously, cancel your account. I don't wish to see comments from you here.

2/11/11

My friends, I guess you won't be that happy if the brotherhood somehow slips his feet in some of the shoes.

2/11/11

no one will want freedom as bad as this man.

2/11/11

Finally! This is some of the best news to come out of the region since the Lebanese kicked out the Syrian army in the Cedar Revolution. The dominoes are falling! Let freedom ring!

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

2/11/11
Pfalzer:

Finally! This is some of the best news to come out

of the region since the Lebanese kicked out the Syrian army in the Cedar Revolution. The dominoes are falling! Let freedom ring!

I agree. I bet some of these kings and dicators are shitting their pants in the middle east right now.

2/11/11
txjustin:
Pfalzer:

Finally! This is some of the best news to come out

of the region since the Lebanese kicked out the Syrian army in the Cedar Revolution. The dominoes are falling! Let freedom ring!

I agree. I bet some of these kings and dicators are shitting their pants in the middle east right now.

Another interesting question is...who's gonna be next? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Even Iran? Oh man...that would be magnificent.

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

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2/11/11

I'm like 98% for this. If Obama didn't pussy out and be like...do what you want I'm neutral I'd be much happier. Either back Mubarak or back the protestors, now we're on bad (or at least not good) terms with the new administration that will come in in September. That is if the military doesn't just form a junta and rule, I mean Mubarak was a commander or captain or some shit in the Air Force, I'm amazed that Egyptians are so elated that the military is taking over.

Reality hits you hard, bro...

2/12/11

I never said that the muslim brotherhood was always peaceful, nor do I support them. I'm a secularist, but I do believe that islamic values can help inform politicians, precisely in the same way the judeo-christian values, which are the same as islamic values, inform our politicians in America. What the brotherhood did 60 years ago is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is for the past 30 years they have renounced violence and have stuck to that. they have also been engaged in social work for the past 30 years, just as I said. The German government committed the holocaust 70 years ago, that does not discredit the current German government that has nothing to do with that as they renounced that evil act. Personally, I think that they have a somewhat misguided perception of Islam, but by and large they are innocuous - that's just my opinion though.

The fact that well known terrorist cells branched off of them supports my argument, why do you think they branched off ? Because the Muslim brotherhood refused to use violence and kill innocent civilians. Why do you think Al Qaeda hates them so much and considers them traitors? The Muslim brotherhood has won the argument with the terrorists. The peaceful route worked, terrorism didn't. That alone will do more to severely damage al qaeda than anything we could do.

2/12/11

Deleted. I realized talking about a certain country might not be that smart on my part considering my circumstances.

I definitely think that Jordan, Yemen, Bahrain (very likely, corrupt Sunni leader - Shia population), Morocco, and Algeria are ripe for revolutions. I doubt we will see anything in the rest of the UAE or the gulf (if anything, it would be in the poorer emirates and Kuwait). It will not happen in Syria, Assad is pretty popular there.

MMBINC, love your display picture, you've got taste.

2/12/11
monyet:

I definitely think that Jordan, Yemen, Bahrain (very likely, corrupt Sunni leader - Shia population), Morocco, and Algeria are ripe for revolutions.

This is just FYI, but Algeria has more or less been on lockdown since Mubarak resigned. I'm thinking they're next (which is kinda surprising to me, because most Algerians I know are generally satisfied with their lot in life). I happen to live around the corner from the Algerian consulate here in Paris, and the bomb squad has been out here twice a day checking parked cars for the past week or so.

2/12/11

I see your point. But then again, Mubarak looked unbeatable as recently as three weeks ago. If something happens in Saudi Arabia, even Obama will have to do something.

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

2/13/11
Pfalzer:

I see your point. But then again, Mubarak looked unbeatable as recently as three weeks ago. If something happens in Saudi Arabia, even Obama will have to do something.

Not on my watch lol too much on the line Pfalzer, for people like me and a handful of others

Government here is amazing, only point the majority doesnt like is the emphasis they place on their version of this religion, yet many of the royals are stumbling in following islam correctly. The "islam" here is not like it should be (women not driving is not a law in Sharia! Neither is forcing all the women to wear abayas and hijabs... as the Quran states:"To you your faith, and to me mine"! So it's pretty skewed stuff here)

The economy here is good. People are living, people are happy. The king is very nice. Definitely NOT what comes to mind when you think of a typical Saudi king (King Fahd, King Khaled, etc.)... rather modern and actively engaged in rapidly developing higher education and technology to international standards since he started his reign in 2005... LOTS of things changed since then, and all for the better.

If you really knew the Saudi youth (the majority of the country is under 23), you'll love them. Fun-loving people. The image people have of Saudi Arabia is palaces filled with 1000s of women or a barren desert...not true! Ask any Saudi living in the United States and he'll tell you its a great country and its changing really really fast, just give it time!

Egypt is really chaotic and poor. People worked to find their next meal, pretty much scraps (been to Cairo and Sharm el-Sheikh before) :( Thank god Hosni Mubarak is gone

Greed is Good.

2/12/11

This explains our relation with guys like Mubarak nicely:

The Cyclops, or the Ministers of Terror
Explained of Base Court Officers

Francis Bacon

It is related that the Cyclops, for their savageness and cruelty, were by Jupiter first thrown into Tartarus, and there condemned to perpetual imprisonment: but that afterwards, Tellus persuaded Jupiter it would be for his service to release them, and employ them in forging thunderbolts. This he accordingly did; and they, with unwearied pains and diligence, hammered out his bolts, and other instruments of terror, with a frightful and continual din of the anvil.

It happened long after, that Jupiter was displeased with AEsculapius, the son of Apollo, for having, by the art of medicine, restored a dead man to life: but concealing his indignation, because the action in itself was pious and illustrious, he secretly incensed the Cyclops against him, who, without remorse, presently slew him with their thunderbolts: in revenge whereof, Apollo, with Jupiter's connivance, shot them all dead with his arrows.
Explanation

This fable seems to point at the behaviour of princes, who, having cruel, bloody, and oppressive ministers, first punish and displace them; but afterwards, by the advice of Tellus, that is, some earthly-minded and ignoble person, employ them again, to serve a turn, when there is occasion for cruelty in execution, or severity in exaction: but these ministers being base in their nature, whet by their former disgrace, and well aware of what is expected from them, use double diligence in their office; till, proceeding unwarily, and over-eager to gain favour, they sometimes, from the private nods, and ambiguous orders of their prince, perform some odious or execrable action. When princes, to decline the envy themselves, and knowing they shall never want such tools at their back, drop them, and give them up to the friends and followers of the injured person; thus exposing them, as sacrifices to revenge and popular odium: whence with great applause, acclamations, and good wishes to the prince, these miscreants at last meet with their desert.

2/12/11

My money is on fundamentalists taking control.

2/12/11

US backed regime change is nothing new. Just hope that if there is a domino effect, the dictators go quietly and don't put up a fight. Oil prices will probably spike if it becomes a regional issue.

2/12/11

Honestly, I think the American fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is embarrassing for the masses and dishonest for those smart enough to know better. How can anyone complain about the supposed fundamentalism/radicalism of the muslim brotherhood when it is current policy for America to supports the most virulent sect of Islam, Whabism, in Saudia Arabia and Pakistan. We give billions to the Saudi family as they pilfer their countries tax coffers and spread their terribly conservative brand of Islam around the region. We give billions to Pakistan even though we know that their intelligence service trains and equips the Taliban. Where is the outrage?

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

2/12/11
eokpar02:

Honestly, I think the American fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is embarrassing for the masses and dishonest for those smart enough to know better. How can anyone complain about the supposed fundamentalism/radicalism of the muslim brotherhood when it is current policy for America to supports the most virulent sect of Islam, Whabism, in Saudia Arabia and Pakistan. We give billions to the Saudi family as they pilfer their countries tax coffers and spread their terribly conservative brand of Islam around the region. We give billions to Pakistan even though we know that their intelligence service trains and equips the Taliban. Where is the outrage?

I'm personally hoping come election time we get a President with some balls. The kind of balls it takes to say fuck the rest of the world and stop giving them "aid" aka money.

2/12/11

Really enjoying your comments monyet. It's nice to see a well thought out analysis of the situation. +1 to you sir.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

2/12/11

I was as glad as all the egyptians when I heard about this resignation. I was also very happy when the dictator Ben Ali flew from Tunisia last month. I am a Tunisian born living in France and I always dreamt of democracy in Tunisia and of democracy in all the arab world. I hope that the same thing will happen in Algeria, Marocco, Lybia with their dumb president Khadafi and so on.

2/12/11

Thanks ilini.

The thing that always upsets me about people that hate on islam is their gross incompetence on the subject. They merely repeat things that others have said and do no research of their own from the source itself. Like I could run circles around the fitna video and refute every single line in it, but I am pretty sure 99% of you were shocked by it and agreed with the message it was sending, but almost none of you went to the quran to read the actual context of the verse in question - sometimes reading just the very next line makes his argument seem totally stupid. If you want to insult islam, go ahead, but at least do it with a little bit more intellectual integrity than that.

I have posted the original fitna video and a refutation of it below (you can just watch the refutation as it includes clips from the original video), the lack of intellectual rigor in these haters of islam is outstanding. Sometimes I think they are purposefully stupid. It takes time and effort, but once you peel back the lies spewed against islam, you'll see that what the detractors say is not true at all. Do your own research and do not take anything on face value. Same thing goes for the Muslim brotherhood. I don't agree with them as I said, and some of the criticism of them is valid, but go to the source. See what they say about themselves, don't just take what you read from haters on face value, you will get a totally distorted view of the truth.


Original fitna movie


Fitna movie refutation

Here is some reading on the topic of the brotherhood:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/02/10/d...

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2011/0128_egypt_...

2/12/11

I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

2/12/11
mxc:

Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

Wrong. You need to see Waco - The Rules of Engagement. The Branch Davidian compound (and the children inside) burned because Janet Reno unleashed paramilitary troops in clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. Don't even get me started on this one.

2/12/11
mxc:

I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 children died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggressive than their official message suggested.

What does that have to do with anything ? If Islam's message is not to blame, then islam has nothing to do with their actions. Hitler was a catholic, and even if you argue he was not, many of the top Nazi leaders were. The IRA was catholic, the KKK is a deeply christian organization that uses the bible to support their actions.
I could go on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism The serbs that massacred Chechnya's people.

If you tally up the numbers killed by christian terrorists and muslim terrorists up to this point, you still have us beat. But this is not a competition between which side has less baddies, my point is that people committed these acts in-spite of their religion not because of it. They are terrorists who happen to be muslim not because they are muslim. If you look back at Islamic history, muslim countries enjoyed many of the same freedoms/ rights/ that our modern countries had when all of europe was in the dark ages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia It is sad that that is no longer the case, but it is not because of islam that that is so. Muslims and jews lived in peace when all of Europe was persecuting them.

Islam has nothing to do with any of this. Furthermore, the reason we have so many muslim terrorists is because we refuse to examine what drives them to become terrorists. They are wrong, obviously, to kill civilians, but why do they do that ? We prop up dictators in their countries that steal their wealth. They don't see growth in their countries, they see muslims children getting massacred in palestine with america weapons and muslim kids' skins getting burned with American white phosphorous. Their acts are not justified, but we as Americans have to address these injustices or we will not see an end to this. 80 years ago there were no suicide bombers or Islamic terrorists. The thing with islam is that there is this brotherhood that transcends nationality. So when muslims see muslims in another country getting killed / invaded it is as if you have invaded their own country. If a muslim child is killed, it is as if you have killed a child from their own family. That makes it very easy for people like bin laden to exploit that and get them angry enough to go kill innocent civilians, even though that contradicts the teachings of islam. Suicide, for whatever reason, is forbidden in islam - many scholars suggest it is a direct ticket to hell unless the person is mentally unstable etc. So all suicide bombers know that they are going against the teachings of islam, but do it anyways. Ditto for killing civilians.

2/12/11
mxc:

I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

Islam in its self is a peaceful religion. However, a good percentage of the people who follow the religion see violence as their number one weapon of spreading their message. I have a lot of close muslim friends, and I don't judge them on their religion or ever discriminate any muslim man..hell I am Indian and my brother in law is pakistani, thats how little my family cares about what your religion or culture is...but the fact is throughout history islam has used violence constantly to spread its message.

but then again, what religion hasn't. this is why religion is the most pointless thing in the world. I hope their is a god, would give life a much better meaning..but religion in its self is the most pointless thing in this world and does more harm than good..humans are irrational human beings that can't learn to accept anything except what has been drilled into their mind since the day of their birth

2/12/11
IamObama:
mxc:

I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

Islam in its self is a peaceful religion. However, a good percentage of the people who follow the religion see violence as their number one weapon of spreading their message. I have a lot of close muslim friends, and I don't judge them on their religion or ever discriminate any muslim man..hell I am Indian and my brother in law is pakistani, thats how little my family cares about what your religion or culture is...but the fact is throughout history islam has used violence constantly to spread its message.

That's not true, but I'm not going to write a 20 page response on the topic. It is a very complex history, but people were not forced to convert to islam. That may be true in a few rare incidents that I do not know about,but if it did occur, then it went against the teachings of islam. Surah 2:56 clearly states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion." In the vast majority of cases it is not true. To quickly refute your point, Indonesia, the most populous muslim country on earth, never had a single muslim army on its shores.

In muslim countries and in countries conquered by muslim armies( mostly because the people were being oppressed by their leaders there or they posed a threat to muslims) the local people were allowed to practice their faith, something that few people realize. The quran itself enshrines the principle of religious freedom.

Most converts to islam came through the extensive trade links between the arab countries and african and asain countries. there are many many books on this topic, don't be lazy and go read them if you actually want to know the truth on the matter. Why do you think that jews who were persecuted in europe came to live in muslim lands ? Why are they still jews in iran and yemen ? And copts in egypt ? It is only very very recently that muslims have failed to live up to the principle of true religious freedom, but islam itself guarantees it.

Are you just repeating that line that you heard somewhere or did you actually go to the source and read about how it was spread from both sides of the story?

i have not even read the wiki article to see if it contains a muslim perspective on the issue, but it will probably shed at least some light on the actual facts i am assuming:

For those of you that do not like reading, this video very quickly sums up the main argument against that contention. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAJjHa6aCtw

This article breaks it down region by region. It is on the longer side. http://islamicinsights.com/religion/clergy-corner/...

This is a shorter article that just quickly goes over the misconception. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/677/

Have not read this article, but it looks pretty detailed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam

2/12/11
mxc:

I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

There are plenty of Christian terrorists coming from Uganda, and so called "Lord's Resistance Army" goes around and does their massacres once every few years.

My great-grand father and his crew killed civilians that were deemed as Nazi collaborators during the 1940s.. Can that be viewed as an act of terrorism? Yes. But guess what, Wikipedia lists his actions as "French Resistance Movement"

There are plenty of Chinese and Koreans that threw bombs into building that were occupied by the Japanese in 1920s, and of course they were tried as terrorists and subsequently executed. But again, 80 years later, they are part of their countries' independence movement.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that it's not religion per se that causes these actions. It's more of an attitude of "you fucked with us, we will fuck you." Look at Indian-Pakistani conflicts, Russian-Caucasia conflicts and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. It's always that logic.

2/12/11

What about Libya, they have a fairly similar situation to Egypt circa 18 days ago....

2/12/11

Monyet,

I understand your deep love for your faith, but don't let that blind you. The supposed minority is making the supposed majority look bad in the case of Islam right now. You can't dispute what many radical muslims are doing right now. It's terrorism. Did they just misinterpret the Quran? What is the reason for their actions? I have not read the entire Quran. I will tell you that what i've read can be easily misinterpreted. Just my opinion. Again, I have nothing against Islam so don't take it as such.

2/12/11

I'm not disputing it at all, what I am saying is that the terrorist are wrong to say that they do what they do in the name of islam, because islam itself clearly repudiates that. The Quran repudiates it. Geert Widlers just showed you how easy it is to take verses out of the quran out of context - just watch that refutation I showed you, it destroys him on every single verse he brought up and makes him seem extremely disingenuous. If your only exposure to islam and the quran is from hater sites that isolate verses (many times just half of a verse) to prove their point when the entire verse contradicts it, then obviously they do not represent islam. Of course the terrorists are wrong. What type of religion would accept the beheading of a journalist ? Or the killing of 2 year old Israeli children who were too young to even know that they were Israeli, but were killed solely because they were israeli? Ditto for the Palestinians. None. That is what I am trying to drive across.

In the same way that I would not say you cannot deny that Hitler and his armies, the IRA, Uganda's Lord's Resistance Army, or the KKK is deeply influenced by the bible, that does not prove that the bible got them to do what they did or instructs them to do what they did. Their actions have nothing to do with christianity, even though these men may have referenced scripture incorrectly to justify their actions. Ditto for Islam and the terrorists today. I can show you refutation after refutation of the supposed verses that muslim haters use to say the quran supports violence, when you examine them in detail, they simply do not exist.

Islamic terrorism is a very recent phenomenon. The reasons it has taken hold are for precisely the same reasons I described above, a lack of opportunity, their countries being invaded, muslims being persecuted, and the Palestinian situation. Muslims, as I explained above, see the muslim community as a whole so they do not differentiate between muslims being oppressed in their own countries and outside of their countries. The mistake they make is to resort to violence and murder of innocent civilians, something the quran utterly condemns, to achieve their goals. We have to resolve the situation in the middle east, once adequately resolved, and all the puppet dictators in the region are removed in favor of democracy (hopefully, but unlikely secular democracy) we will see a change in the muslim world and they will no longer feel the need to commit acts of terrorism. This was true before when muslims, christians, and jews lived in peace in spain and israel/Palestine and other parts of the muslim world, it can be true again.

Geert Wilders took 5 of the most commonly used verses in the Quran that supposedly support violence. If the only thing you watched was his video you would agree with him, but if you do even a little bit of research you will find his claims ludicrous. Watch this:


Fitna movie refutation

After watching that, I think you can see why I think the Quran in no way supports terrorism, despite of the attempts of some to make it seem that way.

I suppose my main point is that the values I hold as an American and the values I hold as a Muslim are one and the same. Hopefully the Muslim world will get rid of their dictators and embrace American styled democracy / rule of law / religious freedom - something that I think islam agrees with.

2/12/11
looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
2/13/11

Monyet is pretty much on the dot when it comes to the middle east

I think a silver banana is in order for your accuracy...but I'm banana broke haha

Greed is Good.

2/13/11

There are many ape-shit crazy Christians around that want to impose a Christian theocracy in the U.S. I don't see many people making those people out to be the representatives of Christianity. Some ignorance being spewed on this board.

2/13/11
prinmemo:

There are many ape-shit crazy Christians around that want to impose a Christian theocracy in the U.S. I don't see many people making those people out to be the representatives of Christianity. Some ignorance being spewed on this board.

Those Christians are going around blowing up motherfuckers to bits.

2/13/11

They did the equivalent before - the KKK lynched thousands of black people.

2/13/11
prinmemo:

They did the equivalent before - the KKK lynched thousands of black people.

Hell if you want to bring up old shit let's bring up the Crusades. I'm specifically speaking of recent events. I realize lots of religions have sects of people who are extreme. Right now that religion just happens to be Islam.

2/13/11
txjustin:
prinmemo:

They did the equivalent before - the KKK lynched thousands of black people.

Hell if you want to bring up old shit let's bring up the Crusades. I'm specifically speaking of recent events. I realize lots of religions have sects of people who are extreme. Right now that religion just happens to be Islam.

And don't try to turn this into Christianity versus Islam or vice versa. Also, you are sounding like you are trying to justify what these extremists are doing.

2/13/11
txjustin:
txjustin:
prinmemo:

They did the equivalent before - the KKK lynched thousands of black people.

Hell if you want to bring up old shit let's bring up the Crusades. I'm specifically speaking of recent events. I realize lots of religions have sects of people who are extreme. Right now that religion just happens to be Islam.

And don't try to turn this into Christianity versus Islam or vice versa. Also, you are sounding like you are trying to justify what these extremists are doing.

How the fuck did you get that I am justifying what these extremists are doing? I am 100% behind secular government and despise violent acts in the name of any religion.

2/13/11

They are in Europe. In 2009 0.34 percent of all terrorist attacks in europe were related to islam. All the others were not, you just don't hear about them on the news.

2/13/11
monyet:

They are in Europe. In 2009 0.34 percent of all terrorist attacks in europe were related to islam. All the others were not, you just don't hear about them on the news.

Not doubting you, but please post a link to that if you are going to post statistics.

2/13/11

Yawm. Military has just suspended the constitution and will hold elections in 6 months. Welcome to a military dictatorship Egypt. Honestly, probably a good thing. Mubarak was weak and didn't have the military support. We fund the military and have close relationships with most of these guys. They should be able to run the country better and more American leaning than Mubarak ever could.

2/13/11

ANT, you're an American, why in the world would you support a military dictatorship ? It goes against American values. Wish for other people what you wish for yourself mate.

I'm pretty certain that the military cannot afford to stage a coup. The older generals know that the people will not accept that and the protests will continue if the military seems to change its course towards more of an authoritarian regime. They would not be able to stop them, the young soldiers and mid-level officers would never shoot on the civilian population.

The older generals would not risk having their mid level officers refuse their command.Plus, the generals are not willing to risk losing American funding. Things have changed in Egypt for the better I think. Democracy will certainly come.

2/13/11

Stephen Walt, A Harvard prof, quoted Europol, which is the European union agency that collects data on this stuff:
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/

Trying to inject reason and evidence into this sort of debate is usually futile, but I do wish to report some good news. Remember the avalanche of Muslim-based terrorism that was about to descend upon the West? Well, according to the EU's 2010 Terrorism Situation and Trend Report, the total number of terrorist incidents in Europe declined in 2009. Even more important, the overwhelming majority of these incidents had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

The report is produced by Europol, which is the criminal intelligence agency of the European Union. In 2009, there were fewer than 300 terrorist incidents in Europe, a 33 percent decline from the previous year. The vast majority of these incidents (237 out of 294) were conducted by indigenous European separatist groups, with another forty or so attributed to leftists and/or anarchists. According to the report, a grand total of one (1) attack was conducted by Islamists. Put differently, Islamist groups were responsible for a whopping 0.34 percent of all terrorist incidents in Europe in 2009. In addition, the report notes, "the number of arrests relating to Islamist terrorism (110) decreased by 41 percent compared to 2008, which continues the trend of a steady decrease since 2006."

2/13/11
monyet:

Stephen Walt, A Harvard prof, quoted Europol, which is the European union agency that collects data on this stuff:
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/

Trying to inject reason and evidence into this sort of debate is usually futile, but I do wish to report some good news. Remember the avalanche of Muslim-based terrorism that was about to descend upon the West? Well, according to the EU's 2010 Terrorism Situation and Trend Report, the total number of terrorist incidents in Europe declined in 2009. Even more important, the overwhelming majority of these incidents had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

The report is produced by Europol, which is the criminal intelligence agency of the European Union. In 2009, there were fewer than 300 terrorist incidents in Europe, a 33 percent decline from the previous year. The vast majority of these incidents (237 out of 294) were conducted by indigenous European separatist groups, with another forty or so attributed to leftists and/or anarchists. According to the report, a grand total of one (1) attack was conducted by Islamists. Put differently, Islamist groups were responsible for a whopping 0.34 percent of all terrorist incidents in Europe in 2009. In addition, the report notes, "the number of arrests relating to Islamist terrorism (110) decreased by 41 percent compared to 2008, which continues the trend of a steady decrease since 2006."

Thanks for the link and insight. That's just what people, like me, need to look at all angles.

2/13/11

For the record, I'm against all terrorism/extremism no matter the religion.

2/13/11

Who said I was supporting it. It was just in the NYtimes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/13/egypt-mil...

One dictator for another.

I'll believe in Democracy when I see it. Currently, only Israel has American style Democracy. When Egypt creates a Bill of Rights where minority views are protected and free elections are held, then I will believe it.

What I think will happen will be either a military run government or something more extreme than we had. Democracy does not have roots in this region and the whole protest situation was not with a desire for freedom.

People are unemployed and hungry. They don't give a fuck about being free. If Mubarak didn't have his head up his ass and wasn't such a greedy fuck, he would have done more to keep unemployment lower and kept food prices more stable. People never would have revolted.

Everyone is pointing to Egypt as some sort of miracle. Time and time again, history has shown, that when people are hungry and out of work, they will revolt. This is no different. The military could have stopped these protests, but Mubarak did not have their support. Now the military is under control and we will see if they step down in 6 months. Once power is taken it is hard to give it back.

Yes, I am an American and I love freedom. I would love nothing more than to see the entire world free. Problem is I do not support pure Democracy. We are a limited Democracy with a constitution and bill of rights to keep the tyranny of the people in check. We also have a strong separation between church and state. When I see middle eastern countries moving towards this type of Democracy I will support it. But as an American I am cognizant of American interests. The last thing I want or the rest of the world wants is an Egypt that is more fundamental and more radical. For all the posturing, this is a possibility now. The last thing the world needs is another Iran.

Time will tell. I hope I am proven wrong. Doubt it.

2/13/11
ANT:

Currently, only Israel has American style Democracy.

.

LOOOOOOOL

Thankfully, the U.S. doesnt take half the original population (palestinians in this case) and label them as "non-citizens". What a democracy!

Greed is Good.

2/13/11

http://www.uam.es/otroscentros/medina/egypt/egypol...

Egyptian Constitution. Socialist part blows, but some good stuff there.

2/13/11

It sounded like you were saying since the KKK(Christians) lynched blacks and recent Middle Eastern extremists(Muslims) are blowing people up that they are justified since the Christians did it. My mistake for misunderstanding you.

2/13/11

I think what he was saying is that this is not only a muslim phenomenon. If we limit ourselves to the past 30 years, on the Christian side you have the Serbs massacre of a million people in Chechneya and the IRA's murder of thousands, massacres of thousands in Nigeria on both sides, massacres thousands of muslims in Thailand and the philipenes. The fact that you have never heard of half of these incidents just shows you that our media is very selective in what it chooses to cover.

On the Muslim side you have the thousands killed on 9/11 by Al Qaeda, the hundreds killed in the spain bombing, the hundreds killed in Indonesia, those killed in the london bombings, a few hostage situations which amount to a few hundred / thousand in total, and a hamas which probably killed a few hundred / thousand israeli's in total. On judaism's side you have several thousands of civilians killed in palestine.

Even the Hindus got in on it, with the massacre of thousands on both sides with muslim indians.

The point being, portraying terrorism as solely a Muslim problem that Christianity and judaism got over is false, all three religions still suffer from terrorism in recent memory - all of this was done in our generation. The point being that all are equally wrong, and all these religions do not advocate these terrorist acts. I did not want to bring up numbers because that demeans the dead and makes them mere figures in a tally, but I felt it was necessary to make that point.

Just because we do not hear about the acts of terrorism committed by other religions on the news, that does not mean they do not happen, they do. Islam is not alone in this, but islam is not to blame, just as Christianity and Judaism are not to blame. We have to deal with the root of the problem, or I fear that this will just be a never ending cycle. We should be able to live together in peace, I just hope that day comes sooner rather than later.

Obviously no one supports terrorism and the killing of innocent civilians, no one on this board is justifying that.

2/13/11

I was gonna come in and defend Islam but it looks like moneyet has it covered.

Also @moneyet I meant it more economically rather than politically, unrest in middle east-> oil up, recovery already weak gets even weaker

2/13/11

My point was that the bodies of organized religions such as the Catholic Church tend to strongly distance themselves from acts of terrorism perpetrated in their name. This cannot be said of Islam (while I agree that it is more loosely organized - but then the argument is valid for schools of Islam).

In plain English, you and your fellow Muslims should state clearly that terrorists are sick motherfuckers and are not worthy of the Muslim epithet. You don't. Terrorists get plenty of support throughout Islam. I don't care how peaceful your holy book is.

Similarly, and to emphasize my point, >99.99% of Catholics think pedophile priests are sick motherfuckers. That is one reason why there is never any confusion between being a Catholic and being a pedophile.

2/13/11
mxc:

My point was that the bodies of organized religions such as the Catholic Church tend to strongly distance themselves from acts of terrorism perpetrated in their name. This cannot be said of Islam (while I agree that it is more loosely organized - but then the argument is valid for schools of Islam).

In plain English, you and your fellow Muslims should state clearly that terrorists are sick motherfuckers and are not worthy of the Muslim epithet. You don't. Terrorists get plenty of support throughout Islam. I don't care how peaceful your holy book is.

Similarly, and to emphasize my point, >99.99% of Catholics think pedophile priests are sick motherfuckers. That is one reason why there is never any confusion between being a Catholic and being a pedophile.

Wrong again. I could show you fatwa after fatwa after fatwa by the imam of the main mosque in makkah, which is as close as we get to a religious authority, and by many muslim scholars and organizations everywhere that utterly condemn terrorism. Essentially every single major Muslim organisation in America, Asia, Africa and Europe has condemned terrorism. I can show you many more around the world that have done likewise. You've just seen me and other muslims on this board condemn it.

We do speak out, we just don't get put on CNN. Just because CNN does not cover it, does not mean it is not true or that it does not happen.

What do you want us to do? Organize a million man march to DC against terrorism ? Oh wait, we are already doing that. Hopefully it will work. Open your eyes, muslims are condemning this left and right. I am tired of hearing that old lie.

I don't see you condemning the killings in Nigeria, have not seen the pope condemn them. I don't see you condemning the killings in Thailand or the Philippines. I don't see you condemning the killing of innocents in Palestine. I don't see you condemning the Ugandan Christians that are murdering gays. I didn't see you condemn the murder of a MILLION people in Chechnya. The fact of the matter is we do condemn all of these acts, but at the same time we do not see those people as a part of our faith and we do not think we have anything to do with them. We are not part of them and have nothing to do with them. So for the same reasons you have not condemned a single thing I mentioned above (i'm almost positive) is why you should not expect us to do the same. But we do anyways, we go the extra mile just to show that we distance ourselves from them and show that what they are doing has nothing to do with islam.

What it seems like to Muslims is that you are asking us to prove our loyalty to America. That's bullshit, we have nothing to prove. Of course we are just as loyal to this country as you are. We love it just as much as you do. We should not be looked on with suspicion and asked to walk around with t-shirts that say "I am not a terrorist" on them. That should be obvious. We are fully muslim and fully American. We have nothing to prove, but we prove it over and over and over day in and day out anyways. And then people like you come say we are not doing anything about it. And CNN / fox / bbc loves putting on radical scholars that boost their ratings to say bat-shit crazy stuff about islam, but somehow rarely find the time to put on people who condemn terrorism.

So yes, we condemn those that claim to be acting in the name of islam, but we dont think they are muslim. That is the point.

2/13/11
mxc:

My point was that the bodies of organized religions such as the Catholic Church tend to strongly distance themselves from acts of terrorism perpetrated in their name. This cannot be said of Islam (while I agree that it is more loosely organized - but then the argument is valid for schools of Islam).

In plain English, you and your fellow Muslims should state clearly that terrorists are sick motherfuckers and are not worthy of the Muslim epithet. You don't. Terrorists get plenty of support throughout Islam. I don't care how peaceful your holy book is.

Similarly, and to emphasize my point, >99.99% of Catholics think pedophile priests are sick motherfuckers. That is one reason why there is never any confusion between being a Catholic and being a pedophile.

You've officially been made to look like a fool. See the posts above.

2/13/11
2/13/11

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

2/13/11
2/14/11

Greed is Good.

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