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Never in my life did I believe this day would come, a stalwart of tyranny came crashing down today - President Hosni Mubarak bowed to the will of the people and resigned. This gives me great hope for the future of the Muslim world, hopefully democracy will follow in all of these surrounding countries.

Though there are a few complications that were brought about by his resignation - such as the fact that they cannot change the constitution that heavily favors the government - I think all these issues will be resolved. God willing, Egypt will become a beacon for democracy in the Arab world in the manner Bush hoped Iraq to be. I am a Muslim and strongly believe that Islam, democracy, human rights, and the rule of law are very compatible. I just hope that the rest of the Muslim world embraces that truth.

Without a doubt, this is the happiest day in my life so far. I have hope for a region that I love so much, but have seen oppressed for far too long.

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Comments (75)

  • loki276's picture

    Finally been waiting for him to give up, lets hope that now Egypt doesn't go into chaos

  • PIE's picture
  • Therightcoast's picture

    Nothing has changed yet. He has many people behind him.

  • Edmundo Braverman's picture

    The protests have already echoed around the Middle East, with several of the region's autocratic rulers making pre-emptive gestures of democratic reform to avert their own protest movements. The lesson many took: If it could happen in three weeks in Egypt, where Mubarak's lock on power had appeared unshakable, it could happen anywhere.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt
  • In reply to Edmundo Braverman
    loki276's picture

    Edmundo Braverman:
    I'm totally stoked about this. Hoping it causes a domino effect throughout the ME.

    Would love it if that happened, although that would probably mean things for us get bad in the short-term at least
  • In reply to loki276
    monyet's picture

    loki276:
    Edmundo Braverman:
    I'm totally stoked about this. Hoping it causes a domino effect throughout the ME.

    Would love it if that happened, although that would probably mean things for us get bad in the short-term at least

    When you say us, do you mean us Americans ? I can't see how this could possibly be bad at all. Especially since the Muslim brotherhood is not nearly as radical as fox news would have you believe. There will be democracy, rule of law, and freedom of worship in Egypt. I say that with conviction, the people will accept nothing less; not after all the deaths, not after all that they have been through and this country was put through.

  • happypantsmcgee's picture

    I get the feeling that a lot of my friends and I will be extending our long vacation in the middle east

    If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

  • ThaVanBurenBoyz's picture

    Hopefully Suleiman doesn't get the job. He's a bad man. Hopefully they get a young, secular, business-type that's looking to modernize the country.

  • Barry Allen's picture

    arab governments must be shaking in their boots

  • IamObama's picture

    The headline should truly read "Egypt is now open for Islamist militants to gain control"

  • arden's picture

    with all this change in the middle east soon israel will be the only country in the region that's not a democracy

  • In reply to IamObama
    monyet's picture

    IamObama:
    The headline should truly read "Egypt is now open for Islamist militants to gain control"

    That's just foolish. Are the people of Egypt religious? Yes. Does the muslim brotherhood identify strongly with Islam? Yes. Does that mean that there will be an Islamic take over of Egypt? No, obviously not. Here is why:

    1. Even if we assume the Muslim brotherhood is as fundamentalist as you imply, they are not, they would not be able to impose an Islamic state in Egypt as the military would never stand for that. The military receives $ 2 billion in US aid, they aren't going to do anything that would jeopardize that. Though they military is very religious, they are also secular, the two are not mutually exclusive.

    2. The Muslim brotherhood itself does not want to make an Iranian styled Islamic state. Much the same way American politicians, including our own president, claim to be guided by judeo-christian values, values that Islam shares, members of the Muslim brotherhood are also influenced by their religion, and there is nothing to be ashamed of with that. They do not want to make the state into a theocracy, but they do believe that Islamic principles can help guide their policy decisions. They themselves have stated that they would not allow any religious authority to have power over parliament, it will remain secular. The Muslim brotherhood renounced violence and, in line with true islamic tradition passed down from the prophet - a tradition that is sadly not followed in the muslim world, is seeking democratic elections. They have towed that line faithfully for 30 years, I doubt they will change. In fact, Al Qaeda and Hamas etc, hate the Muslim brotherhood because it proves them wrong. This Egyptian revolution proves them wrong. It achieved in 18 days with non-violent means what 40 years of terrorist attacks could not. Al Qaeda has lost all credibility thanks to this. The fact of the matter is, the Mubarak regime purposefully portrayed the Muslim brotherhood as some terrorist organization just to gain support from gullible westerners, this is not accurate.

    For the past 30 years their most notable acts have been helping the poor through social programs - ooohh, so scary. What makes them scary is that they are not afraid to identify themselves as Muslims, that does not make them bad people. There are many principles in Islam that I hold dear as an American. Democracy and Islam are absolutely compatible. In fact, I would go further and suggest that Islam advocates it. Do a little reading and take your heads out of the gutter, Islam is not some evil concoction that some bigots may believe it to be. If Islamic principles are understood and applied correctly, something that many muslims fail to do, and almost every single muslim government also fails to do, then I think it is a tremendous force for good. I am proud to call myself a muslim and an American. I love this country every bit as much as you all do. In my purview, Islam as practiced in Saudi and like countries in not true islam at all, cultural prejudices have been fed into it and the whole thing has been unfairly blanketed as islam. Where in islam does it refuse women to drive for instance when the prophet's own wife was also his boss and drove caravans? And females rode horses? before you criticize islam, do a little research on it.

    3. The Muslim brotherhood, though formidable, is just one of many players in a powerful opposition. They have accepted this and have said so themselves. To govern, they will necessarily have to collaborate with secularists, and copts. So that will temper any radicalism, radicalism that I believe does not exist.

    If I had a vote, would I vote for the brotherhood? No. my personal choice would be Amr Moussa or Wael Ghonim - the face of this revolution and the "young, secular, business type" you want. The guy heads up Google's middle east marketing branch.

  • levelworm's picture

    My friends, I guess you won't be that happy if the brotherhood somehow slips his feet in some of the shoes.

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  • blastoise's picture

    no one will want freedom as bad as this man.

  • In reply to monyet
    txjustin's picture

    monyet:
    loki276:
    Edmundo Braverman:
    I'm totally stoked about this. Hoping it causes a domino effect throughout the ME.

    Would love it if that happened, although that would probably mean things for us get bad in the short-term at least

    When you say us, do you mean us Americans ? I can't see how this could possibly be bad at all. Especially since the Muslim brotherhood is not nearly as radical as fox news would have you believe. There will be democracy, rule of law, and freedom of worship in Egypt. I say that with conviction, the people will accept nothing less; not after all the deaths, not after all that they have been through and this country was put through.

    I'll start off by saying that I'm happy that dickless dictator is gone.

  • In The Flesh's picture

    Finally! This is some of the best news to come out of the region since the Lebanese kicked out the Syrian army in the Cedar Revolution. The dominoes are falling! Let freedom ring!

    Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

  • MMBinNC's picture

    I'm like 98% for this. If Obama didn't pussy out and be like...do what you want I'm neutral I'd be much happier. Either back Mubarak or back the protestors, now we're on bad (or at least not good) terms with the new administration that will come in in September. That is if the military doesn't just form a junta and rule, I mean Mubarak was a commander or captain or some shit in the Air Force, I'm amazed that Egyptians are so elated that the military is taking over.

    Reality hits you hard, bro...

  • In reply to monyet
    txjustin's picture

    monyet:
    IamObama:
    The headline should truly read "Egypt is now open for Islamist militants to gain control"

    That's just foolish. Are the people of Egypt religious? Yes. Does the muslim brotherhood identify strongly with Islam? Yes. Does that mean that there will be an Islamic take over of Egypt? No, obviously not. Here is why:

    1. Even if we assume the Muslim brotherhood is as fundamentalist as you imply, they are not, they would not be able to impose an Islamic state in Egypt as the military would never stand for that. The military receives $ 2 billion in US aid, they aren't going to do anything that would jeopardize that. Though they military is very religious, they are also secular, the two are not mutually exclusive.

    2. The Muslim brotherhood itself does not want to make an Iranian styled Islamic state. Much the same way American politicians, including our own president, claim to be guided by judeo-christian values, values that Islam shares, members of the Muslim brotherhood are also influenced by their religion, and there is nothing to be ashamed of with that. They do not want to make the state into a theocracy, but they do believe that Islamic principles can help guide their policy decisions. They themselves have stated that they would not allow any religious authority to have power over parliament, it will remain secular. The Muslim brotherhood renounced violence and, in line with true islamic tradition passed down from the prophet - a tradition that is sadly not followed in the muslim world, is seeking democratic elections. They have towed that line faithfully for 30 years, I doubt they will change. In fact, Al Qaeda and Hamas etc, hate the Muslim brotherhood because it proves them wrong. This Egyptian revolution proves them wrong. It achieved in 18 days with non-violent means what 40 years of terrorist attacks could not. Al Qaeda has lost all credibility thanks to this. The fact of the matter is, the Mubarak regime purposefully portrayed the Muslim brotherhood as some terrorist organization just to gain support from gullible westerners, this is not accurate.

    For the past 30 years their most notable acts have been helping the poor through social programs - ooohh, so scary. What makes them scary is that they are not afraid to identify themselves as Muslims, that does not make them bad people. There are many principles in Islam that I hold dear as an American. Democracy and Islam are absolutely compatible. In fact, I would go further and suggest that Islam advocates it. Do a little reading and take your heads out of the gutter, Islam is not some evil concoction that some bigots may believe it to be. If Islamic principles are understood and applied correctly, something that many muslims fail to do, and almost every single muslim government also fails to do, then I think it is a tremendous force for good. I am proud to call myself a muslim and an American. I love this country every bit as much as you all do. In my purview, Islam as practiced in Saudi and like countries in not true islam at all, cultural prejudices have been fed into it and the whole thing has been unfairly blanketed as islam. Where in islam does it refuse women to drive for instance when the prophet's own wife was also his boss and drove caravans? And females rode horses? before you criticize islam, do a little research on it.

    3. The Muslim brotherhood, though formidable, is just one of many players in a powerful opposition. They have accepted this and have said so themselves. To govern, they will necessarily have to collaborate with secularists, and copts. So that will temper any radicalism, radicalism that I believe does not exist.

    If I had a vote, would I vote for the brotherhood? No. my personal choice would be Amr Moussa or Wael Ghonim - the face of this revolution and the "young, secular, business type" you want. The guy heads up Google's middle east marketing branch.

    It sounds to like you are trying to make the Muslim Brotherhood come off as some organization that is built on peace. Who did they assassinate in 1948 and then try again in 1954? What factions branched off from the brotherhood and are now well know terrorist cells? Please don't try to sell us that they are some community organizing peaceful organization. I have nothing against Islam, I have friends that are Muslims.

  • In reply to arden
    MMBinNC's picture

    arden:
    with all this change in the middle east soon israel will be the only country in the region that's not a democracy

    I assume that this is some thinly veiled anti-Israel nonsense, since Israel is a parliamentary republic...like Germany for example

    Reality hits you hard, bro...

  • In reply to In The Flesh
    txjustin's picture

    Pfalzer:
    Finally! This is some of the best news to come out

    of the region since the Lebanese kicked out the Syrian army in the Cedar Revolution. The dominoes are falling! Let freedom ring!

    I agree. I bet some of these kings and dicators are shitting their pants in the middle east right now.

  • monyet's picture

    I never said that the muslim brotherhood was always peaceful, nor do I support them. I'm a secularist, but I do believe that islamic values can help inform politicians, precisely in the same way the judeo-christian values, which are the same as islamic values, inform our politicians in America. What the brotherhood did 60 years ago is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is for the past 30 years they have renounced violence and have stuck to that. they have also been engaged in social work for the past 30 years, just as I said. The German government committed the holocaust 70 years ago, that does not discredit the current German government that has nothing to do with that as they renounced that evil act. Personally, I think that they have a somewhat misguided perception of Islam, but by and large they are innocuous - that's just my opinion though.

    The fact that well known terrorist cells branched off of them supports my argument, why do you think they branched off ? Because the Muslim brotherhood refused to use violence and kill innocent civilians. Why do you think Al Qaeda hates them so much and considers them traitors? The Muslim brotherhood has won the argument with the terrorists. The peaceful route worked, terrorism didn't. That alone will do more to severely damage al qaeda than anything we could do.

  • In reply to txjustin
    In The Flesh's picture

    txjustin:
    Pfalzer:
    Finally! This is some of the best news to come out

    of the region since the Lebanese kicked out the Syrian army in the Cedar Revolution. The dominoes are falling! Let freedom ring!

    I agree. I bet some of these kings and dicators are shitting their pants in the middle east right now.

    Another interesting question is...who's gonna be next? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Even Iran? Oh man...that would be magnificent.

    Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

  • monyet's picture

    Deleted. I realized talking about a certain country might not be that smart on my part considering my circumstances.

    I definitely think that Jordan, Yemen, Bahrain (very likely, corrupt Sunni leader - Shia population), Morocco, and Algeria are ripe for revolutions. I doubt we will see anything in the rest of the UAE or the gulf (if anything, it would be in the poorer emirates and Kuwait). It will not happen in Syria, Assad is pretty popular there.

    MMBINC, love your display picture, you've got taste.

  • In The Flesh's picture

    I see your point. But then again, Mubarak looked unbeatable as recently as three weeks ago. If something happens in Saudi Arabia, even Obama will have to do something.

    Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

  • ivoteforthatguy's picture

    This explains our relation with guys like Mubarak nicely:

    The Cyclops, or the Ministers of Terror
    Explained of Base Court Officers

    Francis Bacon

    It is related that the Cyclops, for their savageness and cruelty, were by Jupiter first thrown into Tartarus, and there condemned to perpetual imprisonment: but that afterwards, Tellus persuaded Jupiter it would be for his service to release them, and employ them in forging thunderbolts. This he accordingly did; and they, with unwearied pains and diligence, hammered out his bolts, and other instruments of terror, with a frightful and continual din of the anvil.

    It happened long after, that Jupiter was displeased with AEsculapius, the son of Apollo, for having, by the art of medicine, restored a dead man to life: but concealing his indignation, because the action in itself was pious and illustrious, he secretly incensed the Cyclops against him, who, without remorse, presently slew him with their thunderbolts: in revenge whereof, Apollo, with Jupiter's connivance, shot them all dead with his arrows.
    Explanation

    This fable seems to point at the behaviour of princes, who, having cruel, bloody, and oppressive ministers, first punish and displace them; but afterwards, by the advice of Tellus, that is, some earthly-minded and ignoble person, employ them again, to serve a turn, when there is occasion for cruelty in execution, or severity in exaction: but these ministers being base in their nature, whet by their former disgrace, and well aware of what is expected from them, use double diligence in their office; till, proceeding unwarily, and over-eager to gain favour, they sometimes, from the private nods, and ambiguous orders of their prince, perform some odious or execrable action. When princes, to decline the envy themselves, and knowing they shall never want such tools at their back, drop them, and give them up to the friends and followers of the injured person; thus exposing them, as sacrifices to revenge and popular odium: whence with great applause, acclamations, and good wishes to the prince, these miscreants at last meet with their desert.

  • mxc's picture

    My money is on fundamentalists taking control.

  • In reply to arden
    Saccard's picture

    arden:
    with all this change in the middle east soon israel will be the only country in the region that's not a democracy

    You are disgusting. Seriously, cancel your account. I don't wish to see comments from you here.

  • Capitalist's picture

    US backed regime change is nothing new. Just hope that if there is a domino effect, the dictators go quietly and don't put up a fight. Oil prices will probably spike if it becomes a regional issue.

  • eokpar02's picture

    Honestly, I think the American fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is embarrassing for the masses and dishonest for those smart enough to know better. How can anyone complain about the supposed fundamentalism/radicalism of the muslim brotherhood when it is current policy for America to supports the most virulent sect of Islam, Whabism, in Saudia Arabia and Pakistan. We give billions to the Saudi family as they pilfer their countries tax coffers and spread their terribly conservative brand of Islam around the region. We give billions to Pakistan even though we know that their intelligence service trains and equips the Taliban. Where is the outrage?

    I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
    -Styles P

  • illiniPride's picture

    Really enjoying your comments monyet. It's nice to see a well thought out analysis of the situation. +1 to you sir.

    Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

  • In reply to eokpar02
    txjustin's picture

    eokpar02:
    Honestly, I think the American fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is embarrassing for the masses and dishonest for those smart enough to know better. How can anyone complain about the supposed fundamentalism/radicalism of the muslim brotherhood when it is current policy for America to supports the most virulent sect of Islam, Whabism, in Saudia Arabia and Pakistan. We give billions to the Saudi family as they pilfer their countries tax coffers and spread their terribly conservative brand of Islam around the region. We give billions to Pakistan even though we know that their intelligence service trains and equips the Taliban. Where is the outrage?

    I'm personally hoping come election time we get a President with some balls. The kind of balls it takes to say fuck the rest of the world and stop giving them "aid" aka money.

  • FabulousFab's picture

    I was as glad as all the egyptians when I heard about this resignation. I was also very happy when the dictator Ben Ali flew from Tunisia last month. I am a Tunisian born living in France and I always dreamt of democracy in Tunisia and of democracy in all the arab world. I hope that the same thing will happen in Algeria, Marocco, Lybia with their dumb president Khadafi and so on.

  • monyet's picture

    Thanks ilini.

    The thing that always upsets me about people that hate on islam is their gross incompetence on the subject. They merely repeat things that others have said and do no research of their own from the source itself. Like I could run circles around the fitna video and refute every single line in it, but I am pretty sure 99% of you were shocked by it and agreed with the message it was sending, but almost none of you went to the quran to read the actual context of the verse in question - sometimes reading just the very next line makes his argument seem totally stupid. If you want to insult islam, go ahead, but at least do it with a little bit more intellectual integrity than that.

    I have posted the original fitna video and a refutation of it below (you can just watch the refutation as it includes clips from the original video), the lack of intellectual rigor in these haters of islam is outstanding. Sometimes I think they are purposefully stupid. It takes time and effort, but once you peel back the lies spewed against islam, you'll see that what the detractors say is not true at all. Do your own research and do not take anything on face value. Same thing goes for the Muslim brotherhood. I don't agree with them as I said, and some of the criticism of them is valid, but go to the source. See what they say about themselves, don't just take what you read from haters on face value, you will get a totally distorted view of the truth.


    Original fitna movie


    Fitna movie refutation

    Here is some reading on the topic of the brotherhood:
    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/02/10/d...

    http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2011/0128_egypt_...

  • In reply to monyet
    Edmundo Braverman's picture

    monyet:
    I definitely think that Jordan, Yemen, Bahrain (very likely, corrupt Sunni leader - Shia population), Morocco, and Algeria are ripe for revolutions.

    This is just FYI, but Algeria has more or less been on lockdown since Mubarak resigned. I'm thinking they're next (which is kinda surprising to me, because most Algerians I know are generally satisfied with their lot in life). I happen to live around the corner from the Algerian consulate here in Paris, and the bomb squad has been out here twice a day checking parked cars for the past week or so.

  • mxc's picture

    I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

    Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

  • monkeymark's picture

    What about Libya, they have a fairly similar situation to Egypt circa 18 days ago....

  • In reply to mxc
    Edmundo Braverman's picture

    mxc:
    Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

    Wrong. You need to see Waco - The Rules of Engagement. The Branch Davidian compound (and the children inside) burned because Janet Reno unleashed paramilitary troops in clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. Don't even get me started on this one.

  • In reply to mxc
    monyet's picture

    mxc:
    I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

    Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 children died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggressive than their official message suggested.

    What does that have to do with anything ? If Islam's message is not to blame, then islam has nothing to do with their actions. Hitler was a catholic, and even if you argue he was not, many of the top Nazi leaders were. The IRA was catholic, the KKK is a deeply christian organization that uses the bible to support their actions.
    I could go on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism The serbs that massacred Chechnya's people.

    If you tally up the numbers killed by christian terrorists and muslim terrorists up to this point, you still have us beat. But this is not a competition between which side has less baddies, my point is that people committed these acts in-spite of their religion not because of it. They are terrorists who happen to be muslim not because they are muslim. If you look back at Islamic history, muslim countries enjoyed many of the same freedoms/ rights/ that our modern countries had when all of europe was in the dark ages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia It is sad that that is no longer the case, but it is not because of islam that that is so. Muslims and jews lived in peace when all of Europe was persecuting them.

    Islam has nothing to do with any of this. Furthermore, the reason we have so many muslim terrorists is because we refuse to examine what drives them to become terrorists. They are wrong, obviously, to kill civilians, but why do they do that ? We prop up dictators in their countries that steal their wealth. They don't see growth in their countries, they see muslims children getting massacred in palestine with america weapons and muslim kids' skins getting burned with American white phosphorous. Their acts are not justified, but we as Americans have to address these injustices or we will not see an end to this. 80 years ago there were no suicide bombers or Islamic terrorists. The thing with islam is that there is this brotherhood that transcends nationality. So when muslims see muslims in another country getting killed / invaded it is as if you have invaded their own country. If a muslim child is killed, it is as if you have killed a child from their own family. That makes it very easy for people like bin laden to exploit that and get them angry enough to go kill innocent civilians, even though that contradicts the teachings of islam. Suicide, for whatever reason, is forbidden in islam - many scholars suggest it is a direct ticket to hell unless the person is mentally unstable etc. So all suicide bombers know that they are going against the teachings of islam, but do it anyways. Ditto for killing civilians.

  • In reply to mxc
    IamObama's picture

    mxc:
    I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

    Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

    Islam in its self is a peaceful religion. However, a good percentage of the people who follow the religion see violence as their number one weapon of spreading their message. I have a lot of close muslim friends, and I don't judge them on their religion or ever discriminate any muslim man..hell I am Indian and my brother in law is pakistani, thats how little my family cares about what your religion or culture is...but the fact is throughout history islam has used violence constantly to spread its message.

    but then again, what religion hasn't. this is why religion is the most pointless thing in the world. I hope their is a god, would give life a much better meaning..but religion in its self is the most pointless thing in this world and does more harm than good..humans are irrational human beings that can't learn to accept anything except what has been drilled into their mind since the day of their birth

  • In reply to IamObama
    monyet's picture

    IamObama:
    mxc:
    I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

    Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

    Islam in its self is a peaceful religion. However, a good percentage of the people who follow the religion see violence as their number one weapon of spreading their message. I have a lot of close muslim friends, and I don't judge them on their religion or ever discriminate any muslim man..hell I am Indian and my brother in law is pakistani, thats how little my family cares about what your religion or culture is...but the fact is throughout history islam has used violence constantly to spread its message.

    That's not true, but I'm not going to write a 20 page response on the topic. It is a very complex history, but people were not forced to convert to islam. That may be true in a few rare incidents that I do not know about,but if it did occur, then it went against the teachings of islam. Surah 2:56 clearly states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion." In the vast majority of cases it is not true. To quickly refute your point, Indonesia, the most populous muslim country on earth, never had a single muslim army on its shores.

    In muslim countries and in countries conquered by muslim armies( mostly because the people were being oppressed by their leaders there or they posed a threat to muslims) the local people were allowed to practice their faith, something that few people realize. The quran itself enshrines the principle of religious freedom.

    Most converts to islam came through the extensive trade links between the arab countries and african and asain countries. there are many many books on this topic, don't be lazy and go read them if you actually want to know the truth on the matter. Why do you think that jews who were persecuted in europe came to live in muslim lands ? Why are they still jews in iran and yemen ? And copts in egypt ? It is only very very recently that muslims have failed to live up to the principle of true religious freedom, but islam itself guarantees it.

    Are you just repeating that line that you heard somewhere or did you actually go to the source and read about how it was spread from both sides of the story?

    i have not even read the wiki article to see if it contains a muslim perspective on the issue, but it will probably shed at least some light on the actual facts i am assuming:

    For those of you that do not like reading, this video very quickly sums up the main argument against that contention. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAJjHa6aCtw

    This article breaks it down region by region. It is on the longer side. http://islamicinsights.com/religion/clergy-corner/...

    This is a shorter article that just quickly goes over the misconception. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/677/

    Have not read this article, but it looks pretty detailed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam

  • txjustin's picture

    Monyet,

    I understand your deep love for your faith, but don't let that blind you. The supposed minority is making the supposed majority look bad in the case of Islam right now. You can't dispute what many radical muslims are doing right now. It's terrorism. Did they just misinterpret the Quran? What is the reason for their actions? I have not read the entire Quran. I will tell you that what i've read can be easily misinterpreted. Just my opinion. Again, I have nothing against Islam so don't take it as such.

  • monyet's picture

    I'm not disputing it at all, what I am saying is that the terrorist are wrong to say that they do what they do in the name of islam, because islam itself clearly repudiates that. The Quran repudiates it. Geert Widlers just showed you how easy it is to take verses out of the quran out of context - just watch that refutation I showed you, it destroys him on every single verse he brought up and makes him seem extremely disingenuous. If your only exposure to islam and the quran is from hater sites that isolate verses (many times just half of a verse) to prove their point when the entire verse contradicts it, then obviously they do not represent islam. Of course the terrorists are wrong. What type of religion would accept the beheading of a journalist ? Or the killing of 2 year old Israeli children who were too young to even know that they were Israeli, but were killed solely because they were israeli? Ditto for the Palestinians. None. That is what I am trying to drive across.

    In the same way that I would not say you cannot deny that Hitler and his armies, the IRA, Uganda's Lord's Resistance Army, or the KKK is deeply influenced by the bible, that does not prove that the bible got them to do what they did or instructs them to do what they did. Their actions have nothing to do with christianity, even though these men may have referenced scripture incorrectly to justify their actions. Ditto for Islam and the terrorists today. I can show you refutation after refutation of the supposed verses that muslim haters use to say the quran supports violence, when you examine them in detail, they simply do not exist.

    Islamic terrorism is a very recent phenomenon. The reasons it has taken hold are for precisely the same reasons I described above, a lack of opportunity, their countries being invaded, muslims being persecuted, and the Palestinian situation. Muslims, as I explained above, see the muslim community as a whole so they do not differentiate between muslims being oppressed in their own countries and outside of their countries. The mistake they make is to resort to violence and murder of innocent civilians, something the quran utterly condemns, to achieve their goals. We have to resolve the situation in the middle east, once adequately resolved, and all the puppet dictators in the region are removed in favor of democracy (hopefully, but unlikely secular democracy) we will see a change in the muslim world and they will no longer feel the need to commit acts of terrorism. This was true before when muslims, christians, and jews lived in peace in spain and israel/Palestine and other parts of the muslim world, it can be true again.

    Geert Wilders took 5 of the most commonly used verses in the Quran that supposedly support violence. If the only thing you watched was his video you would agree with him, but if you do even a little bit of research you will find his claims ludicrous. Watch this:


    Fitna movie refutation

    After watching that, I think you can see why I think the Quran in no way supports terrorism, despite of the attempts of some to make it seem that way.

    I suppose my main point is that the values I hold as an American and the values I hold as a Muslim are one and the same. Hopefully the Muslim world will get rid of their dictators and embrace American styled democracy / rule of law / religious freedom - something that I think islam agrees with.

  • In reply to mxc
    midnightoil's picture

    mxc:
    I don't care if the Quran's message is peaceful. Most terrorists today call themselves Muslim. A religion is more than its founding scripture. The Old Testament is extremely violent, yet I know of few Christian terrorists.

    Branch Davidians had a peaceful message. Yet 20 chilrdren died in the Waco siege, because the fucking loonies were more aggresive than their official message suggested.

    There are plenty of Christian terrorists coming from Uganda, and so called "Lord's Resistance Army" goes around and does their massacres once every few years.

    My great-grand father and his crew killed civilians that were deemed as Nazi collaborators during the 1940s.. Can that be viewed as an act of terrorism? Yes. But guess what, Wikipedia lists his actions as "French Resistance Movement"

    There are plenty of Chinese and Koreans that threw bombs into building that were occupied by the Japanese in 1920s, and of course they were tried as terrorists and subsequently executed. But again, 80 years later, they are part of their countries' independence movement.

    I guess the point I am trying to make is that it's not religion per se that causes these actions. It's more of an attitude of "you fucked with us, we will fuck you." Look at Indian-Pakistani conflicts, Russian-Caucasia conflicts and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. It's always that logic.

  • In reply to MMBinNC
    arden's picture

    MMBinNC:
    arden:
    with all this change in the middle east soon israel will be the only country in the region that's not a democracy

    I assume that this is some thinly veiled anti-Israel nonsense, since Israel is a parliamentary republic...like Germany for example

    half of the people in the area israel is sovereign over aren't given a right to vote and are routinely murdered, oppressed, and treated like animals. a democracy is where everyone can vote. and no, discriminatorily labeling half the people in your sovereign territory as "non-citizens" and yet continuing to control their land for no apparent reason does not make it any better

  • In reply to monyet
    UFOinsider's picture

    monyet:
    2. The Muslim brotherhood itself does not want to make an Iranian styled Islamic state. Much the same way American politicians, including our own president, claim to be guided by judeo-christian values, values that Islam shares, members of the Muslim brotherhood are also influenced by their religion, and there is nothing to be ashamed of with that. They do not want to make the state into a theocracy, but they do believe that Islamic principles can help guide their policy decisions. They themselves have stated that they would not allow any religious authority to have power over parliament, it will remain secular. The Muslim brotherhood renounced violence and, in line with true islamic tradition passed down from the prophet - a tradition that is sadly not followed in the muslim world, is seeking democratic elections. They have towed that line faithfully for 30 years, I doubt they will change. In fact, Al Qaeda and Hamas etc, hate the Muslim brotherhood because it proves them wrong. This Egyptian revolution proves them wrong. It achieved in 18 days with non-violent means what 40 years of terrorist attacks could not. Al Qaeda has lost all credibility thanks to this. The fact of the matter is, the Mubarak regime purposefully portrayed the Muslim brotherhood as some terrorist organization just to gain support from gullible westerners, this is not accurate

    Noted.

    Get busy living

  • In reply to In The Flesh
    konig's picture

    Pfalzer:
    I see your point. But then again, Mubarak looked unbeatable as recently as three weeks ago. If something happens in Saudi Arabia, even Obama will have to do something.

    Not on my watch lol too much on the line Pfalzer, for people like me and a handful of others

    Government here is amazing, only point the majority doesnt like is the emphasis they place on their version of this religion, yet many of the royals are stumbling in following islam correctly. The "islam" here is not like it should be (women not driving is not a law in Sharia! Neither is forcing all the women to wear abayas and hijabs... as the Quran states:"To you your faith, and to me mine"! So it's pretty skewed stuff here)

    The economy here is good. People are living, people are happy. The king is very nice. Definitely NOT what comes to mind when you think of a typical Saudi king (King Fahd, King Khaled, etc.)... rather modern and actively engaged in rapidly developing higher education and technology to international standards since he started his reign in 2005... LOTS of things changed since then, and all for the better.

    If you really knew the Saudi youth (the majority of the country is under 23), you'll love them. Fun-loving people. The image people have of Saudi Arabia is palaces filled with 1000s of women or a barren desert...not true! Ask any Saudi living in the United States and he'll tell you its a great country and its changing really really fast, just give it time!

    Egypt is really chaotic and poor. People worked to find their next meal, pretty much scraps (been to Cairo and Sharm el-Sheikh before) :( Thank god Hosni Mubarak is gone

    Greed is Good.

  • konig's picture

    Monyet is pretty much on the dot when it comes to the middle east

    I think a silver banana is in order for your accuracy...but I'm banana broke haha

    Greed is Good.

  • prinmemo's picture

    There are many ape-shit crazy Christians around that want to impose a Christian theocracy in the U.S. I don't see many people making those people out to be the representatives of Christianity. Some ignorance being spewed on this board.

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