Stuck between top 5 MBA
Dear WSO,
I have received admission to Columbia (with $) and Booth (with $$), and am waitlisted at Wharton with a high-ish confidence I'll be admitted.
I am an international applicant with M&A experience, and as such do not have much access to unbiased advice/opinions. My current order of preference is Wharton, Columbia, Booth.
Wharton with the brand name and reputation of being the best for Finance, and usually considered to be in a different league from Columbia and Booth.
Columbia with the NYC location, which is great for the social life as well as proximity to recruiters/alumni, and the strong emphasis on IB recruiting (an objective is to work at a BB after graduation)
Booth for the high quality and flexible curriculum, meaning I do not have to repeat any of the "basic" classes I would have to take at the other two schools. But also here I have the negatives of being way too far from NYC for recruiting, the daily commute to campus in the Chicago cold, and the less intensive class integration due to the lack of a core curriculum.
Given the negatives at Booth for me, up until now this order was more or less fixed in my mind. However, I have recently been speaking with Booth Alumni who insist it is a no-brainer for me to go there over the other two (an argument is Wharton's failing brand and the superiority over Columbia). Therefore my desire to obtain some unbiased opinions/insights from people in the USA, who frequently work with alumni from all these schools and can better compare the output of each one.
Obviously they are all outstanding schools and it is an awesome dilemma to have, but it is nonetheless a decision I have to take!
If you can get into Wharton off the waitlist you should definitely go there. The recent hoopla over the school's "decline" is media hype and fluff.
Now between Booth and Columbia. First, what are your specific career goals within finance? Second, do you have a strong location preference? Third, is cost of living important to you?
In my opinion, Columbia's only real advantages over Booth is the NYC location and value investing program for those who are passionate about the field (it's highly competitive to get in though). The location makes it easier to network with the NYC firms, and it also brings out a more diverse student body. I think overall though, Booth is a better business school and is rising rapidly while Columbia has been declining. Booth has done a great job of responding to the financial crisis by putting their eggs in multiple baskets. They have strengthened their programs in marketing, entrepreneurship, and tech, for instance.
Even within finance-your area of interest-more buyside firms recruit on campus at Booth than Columbia. And for sellside they are equal. Yes, Columbia's location simply makes it more convenient, but since all the firms fly out to Chicago to woo Booth students that shouldn't factor too highly into your decision making process.
Finally, Chicago is a MUCH better city to live in as a student. Great city with all the amenities of NYC but lower cost of living and higher quality of life. As a Booth student you can live in a luxury highrise apartment on $1200-1500/month. As a Columbia student you will be relegated to substandard housing in morningside heights/harlem. Your money will simply take you further in Chicago than NYC.
RottenKing, what are your career objectives out of business school? What specifically is your International M&A experience (corporation, banking, PE?) I'll give you a good write-up on the Booth experience once I know these. I can already say that some of your assumptions on Booth are off, but I'll elaborate more soon when I have time.
M&A experience at a middle market bank, going to do whatever it takes to get a BB spot in NYC.
Thanks, and by the way, Merry Christmas to all!
Getting a full time offer in Investment Banking / M&A in NYC is a big deal for me as an international applicant, so the main strength of CBS for me is that. One of the things that I think will make a difference is the close proximity to alumni - you can schedule a quick coffee chat to network, something that for me will be crucial to stand out from American applicants.
But as for the 2 years of MBA I have no real preference - I will have an amazing experience regardless of the city I'm in (even Philly, I'm sure).
Cost of living/tuition and scholarships is something that I want to leave out of the equation: in the long run the differences will be a rounding error compared to what I'll make in the future.
Value investing is interesting but it's not something that I think I'll pursue actively (I've heard it is an extremely competitive and demanding program).
Academically I think it is easier to stand out at Columbia, while still having a decent social life and going after recruiting, but at the same time I want to learn more than just finance, so if Booth is the better Business School overall then that is a point to consider.
Reading this I guess it's pretty clear I have a preference for Columbia, but I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything from the Booth picture.
You do seem to be leaning towards Columbia. Make sure to talk to both students and alums of Booth and Columbia before making a decision. Also try going to both schools' admitted students weekend if possible (you're international so this will obviously be tougher). CompBanker is a Booth student, so wait for his response. He can give you very detailed information about Booth.
If your short-term goal is NYC banking, Booth and Columbia are about equal in terms of placement strength. I have yet to see any evidence that Columbia students are at a fundamental advantage with respect to banking recruiting just because they are in NYC. It's simply more convenient to make it out to interviews, but that's about it. For what it's worth, amongst my finance friends who were faced with the same choice as you, about 70% chose Booth over Columbia. I think Booth's reputation in the business world has been skyrocketing over the past few years and will only continue to do so. Columbia is a great school obviously, but overall I consider Booth to be a stronger business school.
RottenKing,
Perhaps I can help. I'm an international, like you, and a 2nd year at Booth. I made a very drastic career switch into BB in NYC.
When it comes to getting a BB job in NYC, all three schools are identical. The most important thing are the results - all the subjective arguments for each school are fully captured in the 'market-clearing price' - ie) placement. So Wharton's prestige, Booth's analytical rigor, Columbia's NYC location advantage, bla bla bla - they all translate into tremendous job success. You will get the exact same BB job coming from any of the three schools.
In that sense, I would say that one of your key assumptions - that you need to be in NYC to differentiate yourself from American applicants - is off. Proximity to alumni is a proxy for access to alumni intellectual and emotional real estate; that itself is just a conduit to getting the offer. All I can say is that when I met other folks from other schools in New York, we took note of the networking burden; I'd say that overall, if you're at a NYC-based school, you have to do multiples more networking to get to the same spot as someone coming from Philly or Chicago, for the simple reason of EXPECTATIONS. I got the sense (just personal anecdote) that some of these folks felt the location was more of a burden than a blessing.
As a result, out of whatever reasons you have for choosing one school over the other two - do not do it based on careers, as these three schools are almost identical for BB NYC purposes. Focus on the other factors - and by the way, this is a very good problem for you to have.
In a sentence: everything CompBanker said about the Booth experience is true.
Jtb is spot on here. The NYC location is a burden; I've heard the same from Columbia and Stern students. Columbia doesn't have any distinct advantages over Booth while the latter has several advantages over Booth. And from a reputational standpoint, I have never heard anyone say that Columbia is a better school while plenty think Booth is indeed better.
rottenking; just curious where you are from, or rather, where is your international experience in?
I know this sounds cynical, but it's basically true--very few people attend business school to "learn"; the purpose of business school is to further your career via networking and on-campus recruiting. If you walk away with some useful knowledge by graduation then it's icing on the cake. I would take the curriculum entirely out of the equation and focus on what firms recruit to what locations and for what positions.
Disclaimer: I don't have an MBA and I don't plan on obtaining one, but I work in an industry littered with MBA grads, candidates, etc., so via osmosis I have a pretty good feel for what's going on in these programs.
I'll start by saying that I know very little about Columbia. While the school obviously has a fantastic reputation, almost no one I know goes there or event went there. This is probably a function of my never working in NYC. While I am pretty ignorant on Columbia, I know more than enough about Booth. To address your concerns (I apologize for the length):
Chicago Location: Make no doubt about it, the fact that Booth is in Chicago does not limit its access to the NYC banks. Every major bank recruits at Booth. With prior M&A experience you'll be at a huge advantage with all the BBs. They send SWARMS of people to the school to host everything from informational sessions to cocktail parties to "invite only" events. Events are occurring ALL the time, from breakfast sessions to lunch sessions to evening. The people pursuing banking at Booth are inundated with banking activities 24/7 and sometimes even have to choose whether to go to a Goldman event or a JP Morgan event. It is endless and extremely rigorous. The bankers even fly in from NYC to host these events. Everything is done in Chicago and students don't even need to step foot in NYC to get a job there. In addition to all this, the IB Club arranges a "bank week" trip to NYC after the end of the first quarter to enable prospective bankers to network in NYC as a group. The exposure is ridiculous -- I'm not even doing it justice.
Social Life: The social life at Booth has evolved over the last 5-10 years. Historically, many students lived in Hyde Park where there was very little to do at night. Nowadays, students all live within a 3-block radius of each other downtown in the loop. There is one building in particular that houses nearly half of the student body. People are constantly pre-gaming or throwing parties before heading out to the bars. There is never a shortage of activities to do and people are constantly organizing events and then inviting the entire class via Facebook. It ranges from beach volleyball to food crawls to sporting events. The school organizations also host tons of activities for the class, including a semi-formal, boat cruise (Dawali Party), Belgian Halloween party, cooking competition, cubs game, and more. Every week the Thursday Night Drinking Club reserves a bar or club and emails the entire class. Hundreds of people show up every Thursday night and socialize with friends or random Boothies. Trust me, there is absolutely no lack of social life at Booth. Not to belabor the point, but I know very few Boothies that hang out with friends that aren't Booth students (besides significant others). Even over Winter Break (as in right now), Booth students are taking trips to Mexico, San Francisco, LA, NYC, and others together. It is about as integrated as it gets.
Cost of Living: Rent is cheap in Chicago because they overbuilt during the recession ($1,500 will get you a nice, 800sq ft. 1bdrm in a good building). I won't go into too much detail, but the bedrock underneath Chicago enables architects to design and build massive skyscrapers --- so there are lots of 50 story high-rise residential buildings providing ample and inexpensive living. Food / parking / taxis -- you name it, it is cheaper in Chicago. That doesn't mean things aren't nice though, and there are plenty of restaurants at all price points.
Commute: This is probably the worst part and originally turned me off from the school. However, it is far less painful than it seems. Because students live downtown, they take the METRA to and from campus every day. While it is really, really, really damn cold out, you don't need to spend much time outside at all. There is an underground pathway in the loop that connects to the METRA station. Most students are about a 20 second walk to the pedway and some can get to it directly from their apartment elevator bank without every stepping outside. The METRA stops directly on campus leaving students with a six minute walk (or three minute sprint ...) to the Harper center. All classes, recruiting events, etc. are held in the Harper center, so you don't need to go outside again until you're ready to go home. The cold barely plays a factor in the commute.
I'm happy to give more details if you or anyone else have follow-up questions, but hopefully that addresses your concerns. I'm not saying Booth is a better fit for you, but make sure you make your decision based on complete and accurate information.
Is it common for students to bring their cars to Chicago? Heading there in the fall, and don't want to give up the car I recently bought... and I just love having my car around (not a huge fan of public transportation)
Not sure how common it is, but it's much easier and affordable to have a car in Chicago than in NYC. The highrise buildings where most Booth students live in that CompBanker alluded to (collectively known as "Booth Dorms:" actual building names are Millennium Plaza, Tides, Columbus Plaza, Shoreham, Aqua, all VERY nice and affordable apartments) all have parking garages where you pay a fee to park your car. Not sure how much it costs, but I think one of my Booth friends said it was an extra $100/month or so.
If the OP cares at all about quality of life, he really needs to re-examine Booth. For what he wants to do, there is no advantage that Columbia offers, and being a student in NYC sucks major league ass (unless you have ridiculous amounts of disposable cash and can afford to live somewhere nice).
CompBanker, thanks for the detailed post on Booth/Chicago. Just curious what you plan on doing after your MBA. Would you head back to PE or do something different?
Also, Booth's got a PE/VC lab course where you can do a part-time internship with participating firms I believe. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Probably going to head back into PE after I graduate. I don't have any solid plans but the more I think about it this seems like the best path forward all things considered.
I actually don't know too much about the PE/VC lab, primarily because I'm not participating in it. As someone with an extensive background in IB/PE, I feel like the lab will be less useful for me. It is a godsend for people that don't have prior PE experience and are looking to break into the industry. You get very real experience with Chicago PE firms during the school year and can still do a normal internship during the summer. I highly recommend it to bankers with no PE experience or PE professionals that didn't get as fulsome of a PE experience as they had hoped. I've heard stories of people with no PE experience breaking into PE because of the lab.
Take any opportunity you get to get the hell out of NYC for two years.
Amen. NYC is great in many ways but also overrated in other ways. It's good to take a break from NYC for a few years and live in a city where your money takes you a long way.
Compbanker / mbavsmfin,
Curious to hear your thoughts on Booth as it relates to buyside opportunities and any geographical limitations (eg Midwest only)
Thanks!
Jman, I'm at Wharton, not Booth. I know a lot about Booth though during my extensive research on b-schools, visits, and talking to students and alums. In terms of IM and HF recruiting opportunities (I don't know much about PE; this is CompBanker's expertise), the major mutual funds come to Booth to recruit but mainly for summer internships. The full-time jobs are almost always internship conversions, and they don't do as much ocr for the full-time jobs. HF recruiting is MUCH more ad hoc; a few funds do come to campus, and some others will post on the job board. By and large though, HF jobs will be an off-campus thing; this is true for all top b-schools, not just Booth.
Not limited to the Midwest. Every year, folks join PE, HF and long-only (if you consider that buyside) funds not only in the Midwest, but also New York, the West Coast, Houston/the South, London, continental Europe, Hong Kong/Greater China, etc.
First of all, the number of students looking to do PE at Booth is not as high as you may think. While the Private Equity club consists of more than 100 members, many of the members are folks that joined the club hoping to break in only to subsequently give up once their told the odds are stacked against them. Career services is very upfront and honest about whether or not you're wasting your time. Part of this is also due to the fact that Booth appears to limit the number of pre-MBA PE professionals they admit. I know of about five people from solid MM PE shops with good backgrounds that got rejected by Booth.
Second, PE recruiting is largely up to the individual. There are very few PE firms that come to campus to recruit or post job postings on the Booth portal. My understanding is that this is the case at many of the top schools as many of the MM PE firms hire on an as-needed basis and few take summer MBA interns. This isn't surprising as post-MBA hiring is typically done in conjunction with the fundraising cycle or when a spot opens up. What that means is that it is up to you to decide your own fate. You need to be proactive identifying PE shops and reaching out to them. Obviously the school gives you the tools you need to perform the search, including the ability to search through alumni in PE, but reaching out is largely up to you.
Despite point #2, there are a number of campus clubs and events designed to assist you in your search. The PE club organizes treks to San Francisco and NYC where a small group (
Thanks compbanker, very helpful
It seems like you are leaning towards Columbia. I am quite familiar with both schools and you'll have a similar experience at both (Morningside Heights, especially on the Broadway side is a lot nicer than most of the areas around Booth, but quite a few students live around the Magnificent Mile area and commute in). The University of Chicago is an amazing campus from an architectural standpoint (as is Columbia) and U of C administrators are trying to make the place more fun/balanced for undergraduates- more places to eat, lounges to relax/socialize etc. Chicago's undergrad ranking in US News (general proxy for school prestige) has soared in the last decade.
Anyway, Columbia vs. Booth, I don't think there is a clear winner there. If your goal is to get into NYC BB investment banking, I would give the nod to Columbia. I know it was pre-crisis, but I think 45 people went to Goldman Sachs from the 2007 CBS MBA class. Assuming a fair amount of those people are still there- that would be a lot of people who could advocate for you. IB recruiting is all done by school recruiting teams, so you'll be competing mostly with your peers for slots. That said, the number of slots generally available for Wharton/Columbia/Booth is a lot higher than schools further down the top 20 rankings.
Chicago's a fantastic city. Great young population and everything's very affordable. Just my 2 cents.
Congrats on the admits. Just wanted to know if you managed to get a full or partial tution reward at Booth/Columbia? Secondly, does Wharton give full/partial scholarships to international students?
Thanks! Got partial at both, but more partial at Booth. Haven't heard anything concrete from other applicants in my region, but I have no reason to believe that internationals don't get any money from Wharton.
Grew up in Chicago, completed my undergrad in Chicago, but am working at a BB in New York now.
I would recommend Columbia just because its proximity to NYC. There's value in the immediate access to NYC, and pretty much everything else - the entertainment, nightlife, the vibrancy of the city are better in NYC. Yeah, sure, it costs a few more bones to live in NYC, but hey, you gotta pay to play. And Chicago feels much more like a Midwestern city than people make it seem. You'd be surprised at how empty the place can get sometimes.
But it's not all bad, I think Chicago has better food, and the summer months are pretty close to heaven.
I think Chicago is the best U.S. city for the summer since it's not too humid, and the city just comes alive during that time. You have oak and north avenue "beaches", Cubs games, outdoor festivals, music, and just everyone out and about. The caliber of women in Chicago is also higher than NYC, although that's just my personal opinion.
I think Chicago's liability (again just my 2 cents) is that despite its size, it's still very much a Midwestern city. The city is very segregated along racial lines, and my minority friends who live there have told me that they don't quite feel as comfortable there as they do in NYC. Also, the vast majority of the young professionals are Big 10/uchicago/notre dame grads who move to the city with their college buddies, so it will be harder to fit in socially if you don't have roots to the region in some form or fashion. Finally, there aren't that many good finance jobs in Chicago.
However, very little of this matters if you are a Booth student since you'll be hanging out with your classmates, not the city at large. B-school is a very exclusive bubble.
Thanks @CompBanker. You have given some very useful insights, especially for someone who plans to apply to Booth next year.
great posts @CompBanker, why would Booth reject students with pre-MBA PE experience (assuming everything else in the application was decent)? given the competitiveness and attractiveness of the PE field that seems crazy.
In terms of rich alums, I bet most guys made their money in PE.
I don't really understand MBA admissions. If you look at who is on the committee, it tends to be female HR types with education masters. It's like me deciding who should get an engineering job at Nvidia or a research job at Amgen. I'm completely unqualified to make that assessment.
business school is more about post-mba placement (although that's certainly a part of it). programs would rather build a strong community and a well rounded class, which consists of a lot more than a bunch of bankers, consultants and pe guys
MBA admissions is very holistic and marketing oriented, in that adcom is looking to create a well-rounded class. In so doing, very qualified people will get dinged while those with less stellar resumes will get in because they come from a unique background or have some experience that adcom deems valuable. There are people in my class (albeit a minority) who struggle with basic math and stat, and I wonder how they got in. But such is MBA admissions; in many ways, it's more unpredictable than women :)
What are some of the qualities or resume experiences that adcoms look for? I'm assuming most top MBA schools get tons of people applying from the typical path of banking and such (BB IBD, Management Consulting, PE etc) and if they are looking to have a more rounded class, how can people in banking separate themselves? Extra curriculars? Community service?
Booth Grad - would do it again in a heart beat. One thing I will say is that the alumni community is immensely supportive and perhaps surprising to some, with tremendous reach. From a big picture perspective, you can't go wrong. Your experience will be what you make of it. Go where you think you have the best fit. Bust your tail. Don't look back.
I'm a second year at booth who interned at a BB and am going back full time next year. All 3 of those schools will give you great experience and opportunities at BBs in NYC. I think comp banker laid it out pretty well. Personally I would go with Booth again in a heartbeat. Also, for what it's worth, my BB had more booth interns than any other school. I think Booth is the easy choice.
Guys, your comments have been incredibly helpful (especially CompBanker, mbavsmfin and jtbb). Speaking with alumni after admission, and reading your opinions, the balance has actually shifted in favour of Booth (for now!), and I am going to the admit weekends for both schools to make a final decision.
And since Booth has gained so many points in my estimation, that brings me to my next dilemma: Booth or Wharton? haha. I think the waitlist is going to have a decent turnover, and I have some professional updates so I'm fairly confident about getting a pass from them... I realize the differences are much more subtle than Booth vs Columbia, so I guess the visit to Philly will help too. So I have a few more questions:
Chicago has a reputation for being the strongest/most competitive acadmeically: you have to study more than at peer schools, and students are more competitive for grades. Do you guys see this as a reality? Do IB recruiters care that much if you are a top x% student?
In the same spirit, what is the balance between theory and practice at Booth/Wharton? Booth has the Lab courses (can anyone comment on the PE lab?) and Wharton has the Field Application Projects, but what about normal classes (ie. day to day learning)?
For those of you who already had a background in Finance, how best do you take advantage of Booth's flexible curriculum? Do you go deeper in the subjects you already know? Do you explore new subjects, such as data-driven marketing?
Calendar: Booth classes/exams in Spring end a month later than at Wharton. How does this impact internship placements? Is there such a thing as time off between end of classes and starting work?
Recruiting assistance: How valuable are the finance/IB/PE clubs in helping with recruiting? Are the career offices of both schools on the same level?
Thank you so much for the awesome and detailed comments so far, and I hope other applicants can make use of the valuable information in this thread!
See you at Booth admit weekend! Congrats
With grade non-disclosure, don't know why you'd care so much about grades. My SO's at Booth, and he aims for passing. No impact on recruiting whatsoever.
bump
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