So what happens if I didnt get a return offer

Situation: Interned freshman summer at small IB, but didnt get return offer, probably because I sucked ass. For junior SA recruiting, if they ask why I didn't return to that bank for sophomore summer, should I say I didnt get a return offer b/c it was my first business internship ever so i made mistakes? Or should I lie and say they weren't interested in hiring an intern for the next summer?

also for background checks, will banks ever contact my old bank and ask about my performance if I don't list them as a reference?

 

Jesus. They don't care about return offer when you are in Freshman. Rejected Return Offers are significant when you are in your Junior year and you haven't secured that final full time offer. They will realize that something's not quite right during your crucial Junior internship. For Freshman and Sophomore rejected offer (I didn't know they even did these offers), admit that you made mistakes but then learned from your mistakes to become a better analyst, etc. Better yet, just say they didn't have any space or capacity for interns because that's a lot of case for most boutiques.

 

"Better yet, just say they didn't have any space or capacity for interns because that's a lot of case for most boutiques."

I was going to go with this, but I was worried if they called up my bank, they would find out the real reason I didn't return. Maybe I am just overthinking this lol.

 

I don't have many job ideas since I worked on mostly sales desks and it sounds like you were a quant. The main point to get across is to keep an open mind about where you apply and who you network with. I ended up in a completely unrelated field from S&T and really enjoy it.

Now that I think about it, some big asset managers / insurance companies have investment grade fixed income analysts who do statistical analysis on bond portfolios along with fundamental corporate bond research, and it sounds like your background could be a match for that. Very good pay and probably better hours since you're on the buy side. Look at Prudential, TIAA, metlife, nuveen etc

Array
 

If what you're doing right now isn't working, then you should change something. Change your story, change your resume, change your angle of attack, etc. Just change something. If you saying you didn't get a return offer is the ONLY thing holding you back from getting another job, then just lie. Say you turned it down because you didn't like the culture, or some bullshit or that you got the return offer but want to explore other opportunities.

This reads like your whole life you've never even heard the word 'No' and now that you finally have the world around you is falling apart because you can't fathom someone saying no to you.

make it hard to spot the general by working like a soldier
 
Skinnayyy:

If what you're doing right now isn't working, then you should change something. Change your story, change your resume, change your angle of attack, etc. Just change something. If you saying you didn't get a return offer is the ONLY thing holding you back from getting another job, then just lie. Say you turned it down because you didn't like the culture, or some bullshit or that you got the return offer but want to explore other opportunities.

This reads like your whole life you've never even heard the word 'No' and now that you finally have the world around you is falling apart because you can't fathom someone saying no to you.

Gonna go ahead and say lying is a bad idea.

 

I would definitely explore Big 4/Boutique Management Consulting since that is a real possibility without a return offer and your story would make even more sense in that context. For FT IBD recruiting, I would cast a wider net beyond BB/EBs. As I'm sure you have, you need to think about it from their perspective: why would a similar level/better firm want to hire you if you could not convert your SA stint? Keep the grind on and I'm sure you will end up fine.

 

Why didn't you receive a return offer? What type of feedback did you receive? Do you think the analysts and associates you worked with would give you a favorable recommendation (not just some nonsense HR "recommendation")?

I was in the same situation years ago and found it VERY difficult to spin into any type of acceptable answer, even if you have mitigating circumstances. You will be asked if you received a return offer almost immediately by any interviewer. If you answer truthfully you will be auto dinged by most interviewers, that's just the reality.

I disagree that you should lie: most people in the industry know each other, or have mutual contacts, and they will learn the truth. Search for the Jeff Chiang story if you want to see how that strategy can go off the rails.

Really need more info to give better advice. Personally it worked out very well for my career that I skipped out on IBD, though it sure didn't seem like it at the time.

 

you're overthinking it. just mention how you had other things planned your sophomore summer that further reinforced your decision to pursue banking. whether it was another job, summer school, etc...

don't tell them unless they ask.

 

Experience always matters more than grades in my experience, but employers might wonder about your potential if you haven't converted an internship and have mediocre academics to back it up.

That said, everyone is feeling the squeeze of hiring freezes and will not judge you for not being hired on that. It wasn't up to you.

It's probably too late to improve your GPA though, so I'm not sure what sort of response you're looking for on that front.

 

There's a 90% chance you should 100% ignore your fucking peers. Unless you're trying to pass off a 1 week internship as solid experience or your dad owns a bank and got you a job delivering coffee, your experience looks good, and high quality experience is superior to grades. Like most kids in university, they are highly insecure about their position in life and are trying to justify everything they've done.

Never take life or career advice from a 21 or 22 year-old.

 
Gangster Putin:
Never take life or career advice from a 21 or 22 year-old.

That would make 75% of the WSO forum content irrelevant.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 
I'm an AI bot trained on the most helpful WSO content across 17+ years.
 

Sure - just be able to talk around it. Maybe you can BS it regarding products (ie if you were on a rates desk that you liked bonds or fx more) or something like that. Talk around it, convincingly and see where it goes. Not the end of the world. Good Luck

I used to do Asia-Pacific PE (kind of like FoF). Now I do something else but happy to try and answer questions on that stuff.
 

I've bumped into a few kids at top schools who did SA'2011 at BB/EB/top MMs and didn't receive a return offer, and are STILL looking for work. Probably not entirely there fault, just a shitty hiring environment and economy.

But the majority i see end up going through formal OCR for FT and end up at comparable or even better shops. I've also seen people say screw banking and do something else finance related if they didn't receive a return offer.

In the end most find their way, even if it means doing a MSF..

 

The kids that do have one summer of banking experience at least have a leg up on those that do not, and they also likely have the credentials as far as school, GPA, etc. as they were able to land a summer offer. I'd guess that most that want it are able to land at other banks, while some find that it isn't a good fit and pursue other options.

 

This year coming off a SA without FT offer was tough, at least at my target -- especially S&T. Some did land FT at other top firms, but many had to trade down in terms of role or firm, at least compared to their SA gigs. This year is a crummy year to be looking, some BB SA classes only hired sub 50% in certain divisions ... certainly not a slam dunk, although they do seem to put that image out there until the very end.

In short, you can not get a return offer and still get the same job somewhere else, but it isn't easy. You're still certainly better off than someone who didn't have an SA.

 

Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

 
Bernankey:
Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

That doesn't really seem sleazy to me. If they don't have the spots available they can't give an offer

 

youll have to explain why youre not returning. just say the culture wasn't for you, or if youre going up say u wanted the experience of a bulge

 

I also didn't receive an offer, but I interned in S&T. I really wanted to make the transition from Sales to Trading, but they weren't flexible. Due to their desk-specific placements, I didn't get an offer.

I think you should be fine. As long as you have a good reason and have a good resume and experience, i'm sure you'll be fine.

 

Just make sure to be extremely enthusiastic about the industry. You are going to have to prove that it wasn't a lack of interest that held you back at your last job.

 

I had a freind who interned with JPM IBD as a summer analyst, he did not receive an offer. One of the first questions he was asked in every IBD interview was why he didn't get an offer to return to IBD. He didn't end up receiving a banking offer and now works in the Corporate Treasury of another BB.

 

I met a few traders who interned at other places, didn't get offers, but still really wanted to do trading and got a job.

It depends. are you still trying to stay in ibanking or capital markets? If so, you'll hopeuflly have agood reason as to why you didn't get an offer. If you are trying to change 'professions', it might not be as difficult because you want to explore other options.

 

Yea I think if you don't get the offer with them after the internship you are done. I know of one person who was called back for a FT superday AFTER finishing the summer internship, but that doesn't make any sense to me. What are they going to learn about you in an 3 hours of interviews that they didn't find out over the course of 10, 80-hour weeks?

NEVER lose your BlackBerry www.conveniencesoftware.com

 

Only thing I can think of is if you don't get an offer in your group b/c either they don't want/need anyone or b/c you didn't perform well enough as an intern. Is it possible, then, that they would bring you back for FT interviews in a different group/area?

"I'm not sure what the four 9's do, but the ace, I think, is pretty high."
 
BlueHorseShoe:
Only thing I can think of is if you don't get an offer in your group b/c either they don't want/need anyone or b/c you didn't perform well enough as an intern. Is it possible, then, that they would bring you back for FT interviews in a different group/area?
If you don't get the offer because your group has no headcount, it is possible that you may be called back by another group in the same firm for additional interviews.

If you don't get the offer because you didn't perform well, other groups will not call you back for interview either. Or even if they do, they will soon find out that you are not a good performer, then you are done.

 
bugatti:
Barclays and MS are pretty good. GS isn't.

So why even intern at GS if your chances of getting called backed are so slim? Why not just wait until your senior year and apply?

1) Even though your chances of getting an FT offer from your SA job are slim at Goldman relative to other banks, your chances of getting an FT offer at Goldman after being an SA are greater than your chances of getting an FT offer at Goldman without having been an SA.

2) Even if you don't get an offer with Goldman after being an SA, you often stand a good chance of getting an FT offer from another bank.

www.gottamentor.com

 

A friend (analyst at a BB) told me that SAs without FT offers are likely to be seen as "damaged goods" when they apply to other banks for FT. (Caveat: this is based on his experience with BB IB analyst recruiting -- not PE)

Not sure if this is true, but I can see the logic. I hope this helps.

 

It happens man. Just gotta keep your head up and try to interview well. Get a few people to go to bat for you if you can as well. Unless you are absolutely a terrible summer you should be fine.

I know a ton of people who didn't get offers back but still landed on their feet.

 

that interned at top Houston BB (GS, MS, LEH, ML), didn't recieve an offer and ended up with a full-time offer with UBS in NYC.. It's hard and you have to answer why you didn't get an offer. He mad final rounds with GS in Houston and offers also from Bear Stearns, Jefferies, and another middle-market. However, he was basically blacklisted by Leh and Citi. It's totally random and was a very good interviewer with great social and communication skills.

 

life without an offer is a living hell.. your reputation is so badly damaged...you will see people around you with crap resumee, skills and personality getting offers everywhere but you , you are rejected everywhere..

Seanc " I know a broad that interned with UBS through SEO, she didn't get an offer from them and she got rejected by every BB and Top-tier MM as far as I know."

I know these interns in New York ... they worked so hard in all those years to make it happen and succeeded by receiving a summer offer, but it was ruined... and after that they got rejected by every single bank... they were threated like dogshit... bank employees talk to each other at other banks to screw you.. you will not get any job in New York City anymore..you are blacklisted..

The only way to succeed is to change division... if you don't get an offer from IBD change to apply for markets e.g. fixed income sales/trading/structuring...

 

It's a simple concept, most Banks will assume that you're simply not good enough for Banking. After all, if they didn't come to that conclusion, what they would be accepting is that while you're not good enough to work at a BB, you are good enough to work for them since the work required is generally of lower quality.

I doubt very many of them are willing to make that admission.

 

As everyone else is saying, you're pretty much up shit's creek with no paddle.

Two buddies of mine didn't get offers, and one went to law school and the other went to consulting. Usually places outside of banking will not ask whether or not you got an offer.

To the person who said you might as well not get a banking internship, that's not the answer. I think the answer would be to do your research and question the bank that has a 30% Summer --> FT rate. Although you have GS on your resume, there's not too many places to move but down. So heavily consider a place that has a 80-90% rate, even though it might be #5 bank and not #1. I'm not saying to turn down GS or MS, just saying to size up your competition, and determine whether or not you can be a top analyst.

 

are way way overstating the implications of not getting an offer. does it make things a little more difficult, yea sure. but is it the end of the world? not by any stretch of the imagination. It really just comes down to how you sell yourself. I.e. if someone asks in an interview why you didn't get an offer, you don't say that your feedback was that you didn't have the requisite analytic skills or whatever HR might've told you at the end of the summer. You say, "Well, I really wasn't passionate about the industry I was assigned to, so ultimately I told the MD that I'd be more interested in switching into M&A or whatever blah blah blah..." Just because you didn't get an offer from one internship does not mean your life's over. Chill.

 

It didn't dawn upon me until recently, but my concern now is that I'm set to summer at a 1st tier BB who has been quoted many times on this board as taking well below half (some said as low as 30%!) of their summer class.

So statistically speaking, and if FT is the goal, my chances would be greater to do something else in the financial services industry this summer, study up for the full-time interviews, and knock them out of the park come fall.

 

No 1st tier BB will hire less than half of their SA class. Don't worry about it too much; it's not as tough to get an offer as you may think, and if you do well, you'll get one fairly easily. The kids who don't get asked back generally didn't deserve to be there to begin with (strong contacts, SEO, random slip though the cracks, etc.), and are surprisingly incompetent considering they actually made it through the hiring process in the first place.

You'll know which SAs are questionable within the first few weeks or so of working with them.

 
Prescott Moncrief III:
No 1st tier BB will hire less than half of their SA class. Don't worry about it too much; it's not as tough to get an offer as you may think, and if you do well, you'll get one fairly easily. The kids who don't get asked back generally didn't deserve to be there to begin with (strong contacts, SEO, random slip though the cracks, etc.), and are surprisingly incompetent considering they actually made it through the hiring process in the first place.

You'll know which SAs are questionable within the first few weeks or so of working with them.

agreed. getting an offer isn't that difficult if you want one. you'll have cases where qualified candidates are rejected (fit isn't a match) but from what i've seen, those are rare.

as an analyst, by the end of your second full week, we have a pretty good idea which interns we are going to give offers out to.

 

It's really not hard at all to be offered a position, all you have to do is prove you're not retarded, have a half-decent personality, speak english and be the last one to leave the office.

When I interned at a MM this summer, I slept in the office Monday through Friday. Needless to say, I was the first one notified that I'd be called back.

 

In London it seems to be very easy to get a FT at a similar or slightly worse bank after not getting the SA Offer at your BB bank. At least that's what i've heard, and I know of at least one guy who did this. Surely banks will prefer people with experience who clearly know why they want to go into banking over students who didn't do an internship at all. There must be enough interns who don't get an offer based on personal fit, or at least thats what you can tell the other bank.

 

hmmmmm here's one for the board elders anyone else who might care to weigh in. I'm from a top target and am going to be a SA at a mid-range (LB, Citi, ML , JPM, etc.) BB this summer.

On my resume, my "cumulative GPA" includes credits transferred from my previous college, which bumps it up a about .07, and I didn't list that previous college on my rez, as I was told it wasn't necessary. Also, I had just started an internship when I applied so that was on my rez, and I switched a few days after I applied to another one (I sent them an update a few days ago, because technically I didnt really work there as I switched within a week) On one of my previous jobs, the date is extended slightly.

Will the HR folks ding me so much for this as to preclude me from the FT offer regardless of my performance? Should I tell them about it now? Should I not chance it, opt out now while I'm ahead (cite some BS reason of course) and do something else this summer, as they talked about above, and just focus on "knocking the FT interviews out of the park" this fall? Would love to know what you all think/would do! Gracias!

 

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