So what happens if I didnt get a return offer
Situation: Interned freshman summer at small IB, but didnt get return offer, probably because I sucked ass. For junior SA recruiting, if they ask why I didn't return to that bank for sophomore summer, should I say I didnt get a return offer b/c it was my first business internship ever so i made mistakes? Or should I lie and say they weren't interested in hiring an intern for the next summer?
also for background checks, will banks ever contact my old bank and ask about my performance if I don't list them as a reference?
bump
bump
I'd say you wanted to test other industries your sophomore year (assuming you had an internship then), but discovered you really were interested in banking.
Isn't that technically lying or is that okay?
Well, would you be lying? Were you stuck on banking from your freshman year? Never wanted to intern anywhere else?
There would be a white lie / exclusion by not mentioning you didn't get a return offer. I'd also just listen to ROK_Marine's new comment.
Jesus. They don't care about return offer when you are in Freshman. Rejected Return Offers are significant when you are in your Junior year and you haven't secured that final full time offer. They will realize that something's not quite right during your crucial Junior internship. For Freshman and Sophomore rejected offer (I didn't know they even did these offers), admit that you made mistakes but then learned from your mistakes to become a better analyst, etc. Better yet, just say they didn't have any space or capacity for interns because that's a lot of case for most boutiques.
"Better yet, just say they didn't have any space or capacity for interns because that's a lot of case for most boutiques."
I was going to go with this, but I was worried if they called up my bank, they would find out the real reason I didn't return. Maybe I am just overthinking this lol.
You are seriously overthinking man. Unless you have a criminal record, they only phone the banks to check that you did work there and for how long. Best of luck.
Yea, you should probably be honest.
No return offer, what are my options? Completely at a loss (Originally Posted: 09/16/2017)
You will probably have trouble getting into any algorithm shops that are worth getting into, on account of not having a phd and not being a math / coding genius. But you could probably still do other buyside stuff. Your background would be good for trying to get a job as an economist or structured finance analyst.
I don't have many job ideas since I worked on mostly sales desks and it sounds like you were a quant. The main point to get across is to keep an open mind about where you apply and who you network with. I ended up in a completely unrelated field from S&T and really enjoy it.
Now that I think about it, some big asset managers / insurance companies have investment grade fixed income analysts who do statistical analysis on bond portfolios along with fundamental corporate bond research, and it sounds like your background could be a match for that. Very good pay and probably better hours since you're on the buy side. Look at Prudential, TIAA, metlife, nuveen etc
Great post, thanks for sharing your experience and insight.
you were a freshman.
No Offer after SA - Career in IB over? (Originally Posted: 08/19/2015)
I summered at a top tier BB and a top group and did not get a return offer. I have contacted people I networked with throughout the process before the summer and then reached out to new leads too at other BBs/EBs. I have yielded extremely negative results overall and starting to feel like I may be in such a uphill battle that this may no longer be possible. I would also mention that most people say my story for why no offer makes logical sense, it is a good explanation, and I have had a few interviews but people lose all interest after no offer situation.
What can I do? Should I try to do consulting? Post MBA banking?
If what you're doing right now isn't working, then you should change something. Change your story, change your resume, change your angle of attack, etc. Just change something. If you saying you didn't get a return offer is the ONLY thing holding you back from getting another job, then just lie. Say you turned it down because you didn't like the culture, or some bullshit or that you got the return offer but want to explore other opportunities.
This reads like your whole life you've never even heard the word 'No' and now that you finally have the world around you is falling apart because you can't fathom someone saying no to you.
Gonna go ahead and say lying is a bad idea.
Why didn't you get an offer?
I would definitely explore Big 4/Boutique Management Consulting since that is a real possibility without a return offer and your story would make even more sense in that context. For FT IBD recruiting, I would cast a wider net beyond BB/EBs. As I'm sure you have, you need to think about it from their perspective: why would a similar level/better firm want to hire you if you could not convert your SA stint? Keep the grind on and I'm sure you will end up fine.
Why didn't you receive a return offer? What type of feedback did you receive? Do you think the analysts and associates you worked with would give you a favorable recommendation (not just some nonsense HR "recommendation")?
I was in the same situation years ago and found it VERY difficult to spin into any type of acceptable answer, even if you have mitigating circumstances. You will be asked if you received a return offer almost immediately by any interviewer. If you answer truthfully you will be auto dinged by most interviewers, that's just the reality.
I disagree that you should lie: most people in the industry know each other, or have mutual contacts, and they will learn the truth. Search for the Jeff Chiang story if you want to see how that strategy can go off the rails.
Really need more info to give better advice. Personally it worked out very well for my career that I skipped out on IBD, though it sure didn't seem like it at the time.
Didn't get converted at BB SA.. what do I do, and do grades matter more or experience? (Originally Posted: 10/16/2016)
Hi everyone,
Just an IB wannabe here. I've done 1 AM and 2 IB internships before landing a BB IB SA role with a prominent US bank. However, I didn't get converted despite getting on great with the team, and doing all I thought it would take me to get converted - the bank simply had a hiring freeze in the city I was in.
I'm extremely worried that I won't be able to get an FT offer and am currently hoping someone, somewhere gives me a job. I hope that with my past 3 solid IB experiences in M&A and ECM, that I'll be able to land an FT in a BB.. What are my chances? Should I shoot for BB, MM, even AM?
On a side note, I also have better internship experiences than I do GPA.. and most of my peers (I am at a target) have a higher GPA than mine but less strong internship experiences. I've only got a 3.4 right now. Some of my peers with extremely high GPAs have commented that my internships don't count in the eyes of some recruiters. I feel really lousy about myself right now and am wondering if my hard work was a total waste, since I have still ended up with no FT offer.
Best, Rejected Monkey
you're overthinking it. just mention how you had other things planned your sophomore summer that further reinforced your decision to pursue banking. whether it was another job, summer school, etc...
don't tell them unless they ask.
Experience always matters more than grades in my experience, but employers might wonder about your potential if you haven't converted an internship and have mediocre academics to back it up.
That said, everyone is feeling the squeeze of hiring freezes and will not judge you for not being hired on that. It wasn't up to you.
It's probably too late to improve your GPA though, so I'm not sure what sort of response you're looking for on that front.
It's not all about BB or bust - expand your search and apply to all EB / MM banks & network as much as you can. You have solid experience and no headcount is an acceptable reason for not getting an offer. GPA is less relevant once you get to the interview stage - which you can also do through networking.
There's a 90% chance you should 100% ignore your fucking peers. Unless you're trying to pass off a 1 week internship as solid experience or your dad owns a bank and got you a job delivering coffee, your experience looks good, and high quality experience is superior to grades. Like most kids in university, they are highly insecure about their position in life and are trying to justify everything they've done.
Never take life or career advice from a 21 or 22 year-old.
That would make 75% of the WSO forum content irrelevant.
Happy to report that I landed an offer with a top-tier consulting firm! MBB
How often do people not get return offers from BB SA roles? (Originally Posted: 11/20/2017)
It seems like people always ask about how to get a return offer from a BB Summer Analyst position but how often do you really not get a return? And what causes that? (Tips to prevent such a case)
jonathan-wang3, bummer your thread hasn't had a response yet. Maybe one of these threads could point you in the right direction:
More suggestions...
You're welcome.
No Return Offer from BB S&T. Now What? (Originally Posted: 08/05/2014)
Rising senior at a semi-target working in S&T at a BB. Fucked up a few times, so manager hates the fuck out of me, and won't give me a return offer. Regardless, never thought S&T was the right fit for me and looking to do banking; yes, I did work in banking before, but smaller shops. Still have chances to be on the street (at other BBs/EBs)?
Yeah, get on your network and start talking to banks asap.
Sure - just be able to talk around it. Maybe you can BS it regarding products (ie if you were on a rates desk that you liked bonds or fx more) or something like that. Talk around it, convincingly and see where it goes. Not the end of the world. Good Luck
Yeah talk about why you tried S&T but decided it wasn't the right fit for you, and your banking experience showed you that's much more your style.
This is easy, you tried SnT and Banking and you prefer latter.
This. Easy story to spin.
What happens to all the SAs who don't get FT offers? (Originally Posted: 04/18/2012)
I am lucky enough to have not had a BB internship but to have been offered a FT BB position in capital markets in NYC.. I know a lot of people here shit on CM but I feel very fortunate to have any offer whatsoever. My question is regarding all the S&T and IBD SAs who don't get offers. I know that in some divisions, more than 50% don't get return offers, so what exactly do all these people do? Try to get back in through FT recuiting? Go to F500s? Go for their MBAs?
I realize it's impossible to generalize but it just seems like so many people are so thrilled to have SA positions but you don't hear about what becomes of those who don't get FT offers. It seems like it would just be depressing if 10 years down the line, someone was working in middle management of something and thought "Yeah, I worked on wall street one summer but they didn't want me so oh well," or something like that. But knowing that in some divisions, especially during bad years, more SAs don't get hired than do, I'm surprised I don't hear more about them on WSO and what their options typically are and what they end up doing most of the time. SA offers are largely seen as "slam dunk" on WSO as long as you do well, show up early, stay late, but I never see talk of what to do if the very real possibility (again, possibly over 50%) of not getting an offer actually happens.
I've bumped into a few kids at top schools who did SA'2011 at BB/EB/top MMs and didn't receive a return offer, and are STILL looking for work. Probably not entirely there fault, just a shitty hiring environment and economy.
But the majority i see end up going through formal OCR for FT and end up at comparable or even better shops. I've also seen people say screw banking and do something else finance related if they didn't receive a return offer.
In the end most find their way, even if it means doing a MSF..
The kids that do have one summer of banking experience at least have a leg up on those that do not, and they also likely have the credentials as far as school, GPA, etc. as they were able to land a summer offer. I'd guess that most that want it are able to land at other banks, while some find that it isn't a good fit and pursue other options.
This year coming off a SA without FT offer was tough, at least at my target -- especially S&T. Some did land FT at other top firms, but many had to trade down in terms of role or firm, at least compared to their SA gigs. This year is a crummy year to be looking, some BB SA classes only hired sub 50% in certain divisions ... certainly not a slam dunk, although they do seem to put that image out there until the very end.
In short, you can not get a return offer and still get the same job somewhere else, but it isn't easy. You're still certainly better off than someone who didn't have an SA.
did any of the banks do substantial FT hiring out of the intern class in s+t? i think citi hired a few
Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...
From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..
Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.
That doesn't really seem sleazy to me. If they don't have the spots available they can't give an offer
i also know someone that didn't summer there and got hired FT
I can 100% confirm that Citi did hire some people FT for S&T who were not SAs. Not many, but some. Please only post information if you actually know what you are talking about.
Can anyone confirmif BAML, MS, GS, or CS recruited for any/many FT in S&T who weren't SAs?
Chances after not receiving an offer on summer analyst stint (Originally Posted: 08/23/2006)
I did a summer analyst stint in Capital Markets at a third tier bank (think Barclays, Bear, Wachovia) and I was not extended an offer. What are my chances at landing a position at another investment bank that is at least 3rd tier? I am also very open to MM, Boutique shops. I have solid grades (3.7) and work experience. What would your strategy be for the approaching recruiting season?
youll have to explain why youre not returning. just say the culture wasn't for you, or if youre going up say u wanted the experience of a bulge
I also didn't receive an offer, but I interned in S&T. I really wanted to make the transition from Sales to Trading, but they weren't flexible. Due to their desk-specific placements, I didn't get an offer.
I think you should be fine. As long as you have a good reason and have a good resume and experience, i'm sure you'll be fine.
what were u trying to go to from S&T
Just make sure to be extremely enthusiastic about the industry. You are going to have to prove that it wasn't a lack of interest that held you back at your last job.
What do you mean? The way our internship program was structured was that if you were in S&T, you did Sales or trading. So I started as just a Sales intern but got interested in Trading..so i'm trying to go into Trading now.
I had a freind who interned with JPM IBD as a summer analyst, he did not receive an offer. One of the first questions he was asked in every IBD interview was why he didn't get an offer to return to IBD. He didn't end up receiving a banking offer and now works in the Corporate Treasury of another BB.
Thank you for your responses. Have any of you gotten fulltime offers after not receiving offers from summer analyst internships (or know any people)? And what did they do to get their jobs?
I met a few traders who interned at other places, didn't get offers, but still really wanted to do trading and got a job.
It depends. are you still trying to stay in ibanking or capital markets? If so, you'll hopeuflly have agood reason as to why you didn't get an offer. If you are trying to change 'professions', it might not be as difficult because you want to explore other options.
If you don't get an offer after interning... (Originally Posted: 06/03/2009)
If you don't get an offer after a junior year summer internship, can you still apply for a job? Does it hurt your chances that you worked at the firm but was not given an offer? What about firms like GS that don't give offers to many interns?
I think you are pretty much done with the firm. If they don't give you an offer from your SA, why would they give you an offer for FT? That does not make any sense.
i shudder to think about the possibility of not getting an offer
Yea I think if you don't get the offer with them after the internship you are done. I know of one person who was called back for a FT superday AFTER finishing the summer internship, but that doesn't make any sense to me. What are they going to learn about you in an 3 hours of interviews that they didn't find out over the course of 10, 80-hour weeks?
NEVER lose your BlackBerry www.conveniencesoftware.com
Only thing I can think of is if you don't get an offer in your group b/c either they don't want/need anyone or b/c you didn't perform well enough as an intern. Is it possible, then, that they would bring you back for FT interviews in a different group/area?
If you don't get the offer because you didn't perform well, other groups will not call you back for interview either. Or even if they do, they will soon find out that you are not a good performer, then you are done.
any info on which firms typically have a lot of their summer interns back? and firms that take a small number back?
Barclays and MS are pretty good. GS isn't.
Chase Us, Break In http://chasingconsultantsbreakingbankers.blogspot.com/
So why even intern at GS if your chances of getting called backed are so slim? Why not just wait until your senior year and apply?
If you can get their name on your resume it will open MANY doors.
1) Even though your chances of getting an FT offer from your SA job are slim at Goldman relative to other banks, your chances of getting an FT offer at Goldman after being an SA are greater than your chances of getting an FT offer at Goldman without having been an SA.
2) Even if you don't get an offer with Goldman after being an SA, you often stand a good chance of getting an FT offer from another bank.
www.gottamentor.com
No return offer-worth reapplying? (Originally Posted: 06/02/2012)
Hi all,
I did a first year internship at a second tier BB this year. I received feedback and was told that my team work skills were not up to scratch. I was told to reapply next year. However, I have heard that there is no point as they may not see me as a cultural fit. I am confused as to what to do next. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Reapply anyway it will not hurt....but move on and go for other places to get full time
What he said^
What do you lose by reapplying? Worst comes to worst your relationship with that firm stays the same and you dont have a job there.
But definitely pursue other banks as well.
re-apply and perhaps show them that you've changed and improved.
Ah kl thanks all. I shall do so!
What happens to the summers who don't get offers? (Originally Posted: 03/19/2007)
What is generally the trend for those who don't get FT offers after being SA? I know people have talked about some banks offering fewer than half of their summers FT, so does it look really bad when interviewing for FT that you didn't get the offer from your summer? Or is it relatively easy to switch after you've summered?
In the case that it's not, would it almost be better to not have an IB summer internship, than to have had one and not gotten the offer (in terms of getting an FT offer)? The reason I ask is I know a senior now who was a stud and spent his junior summer at Blackstone, but didn't get the offer, and when full-time came around, he didn't even get a job in IB. Is this a common pattern?
A friend (analyst at a BB) told me that SAs without FT offers are likely to be seen as "damaged goods" when they apply to other banks for FT. (Caveat: this is based on his experience with BB IB analyst recruiting -- not PE)
Not sure if this is true, but I can see the logic. I hope this helps.
If you don't get an offer, it's really hard to get recruited by another BB.
It happens man. Just gotta keep your head up and try to interview well. Get a few people to go to bat for you if you can as well. Unless you are absolutely a terrible summer you should be fine.
I know a ton of people who didn't get offers back but still landed on their feet.
I know a broad that interned with UBS through SEO, she didn't get an offer from them and she got rejected by every BB and Top-tier MM as far as I know.
that interned at top Houston BB (GS, MS, LEH, ML), didn't recieve an offer and ended up with a full-time offer with UBS in NYC.. It's hard and you have to answer why you didn't get an offer. He mad final rounds with GS in Houston and offers also from Bear Stearns, Jefferies, and another middle-market. However, he was basically blacklisted by Leh and Citi. It's totally random and was a very good interviewer with great social and communication skills.
I agree- think you are generally trading down a tier if you don't get an offer.
life without an offer is a living hell.. your reputation is so badly damaged...you will see people around you with crap resumee, skills and personality getting offers everywhere but you , you are rejected everywhere..
Seanc " I know a broad that interned with UBS through SEO, she didn't get an offer from them and she got rejected by every BB and Top-tier MM as far as I know."
I know these interns in New York ... they worked so hard in all those years to make it happen and succeeded by receiving a summer offer, but it was ruined... and after that they got rejected by every single bank... they were threated like dogshit... bank employees talk to each other at other banks to screw you.. you will not get any job in New York City anymore..you are blacklisted..
The only way to succeed is to change division... if you don't get an offer from IBD change to apply for markets e.g. fixed income sales/trading/structuring...
It's a simple concept, most Banks will assume that you're simply not good enough for Banking. After all, if they didn't come to that conclusion, what they would be accepting is that while you're not good enough to work at a BB, you are good enough to work for them since the work required is generally of lower quality.
I doubt very many of them are willing to make that admission.
knew a kid who did GS summer and wound up at a solid MM shop after not getting an offer, but still a trade-down.
i always feel bad for kids who didnt get offers cuss its harder for them than kids who did something else during the summer
That is so arrogant to think...
People don't get offers for various reasons... not necessarily meaning you are crap...
It might be office politics..
As everyone else is saying, you're pretty much up shit's creek with no paddle.
Two buddies of mine didn't get offers, and one went to law school and the other went to consulting. Usually places outside of banking will not ask whether or not you got an offer.
To the person who said you might as well not get a banking internship, that's not the answer. I think the answer would be to do your research and question the bank that has a 30% Summer --> FT rate. Although you have GS on your resume, there's not too many places to move but down. So heavily consider a place that has a 80-90% rate, even though it might be #5 bank and not #1. I'm not saying to turn down GS or MS, just saying to size up your competition, and determine whether or not you can be a top analyst.
What I've also heard a lot of is that HR makes more of the decision as to who gets FT offers (as opposed to the actual people in your group? Anyone know if this is true?
are way way overstating the implications of not getting an offer. does it make things a little more difficult, yea sure. but is it the end of the world? not by any stretch of the imagination. It really just comes down to how you sell yourself. I.e. if someone asks in an interview why you didn't get an offer, you don't say that your feedback was that you didn't have the requisite analytic skills or whatever HR might've told you at the end of the summer. You say, "Well, I really wasn't passionate about the industry I was assigned to, so ultimately I told the MD that I'd be more interested in switching into M&A or whatever blah blah blah..." Just because you didn't get an offer from one internship does not mean your life's over. Chill.
how do they know whether you got an offer from the bank you interned with or not?
It didn't dawn upon me until recently, but my concern now is that I'm set to summer at a 1st tier BB who has been quoted many times on this board as taking well below half (some said as low as 30%!) of their summer class.
So statistically speaking, and if FT is the goal, my chances would be greater to do something else in the financial services industry this summer, study up for the full-time interviews, and knock them out of the park come fall.
No 1st tier BB will hire less than half of their SA class. Don't worry about it too much; it's not as tough to get an offer as you may think, and if you do well, you'll get one fairly easily. The kids who don't get asked back generally didn't deserve to be there to begin with (strong contacts, SEO, random slip though the cracks, etc.), and are surprisingly incompetent considering they actually made it through the hiring process in the first place.
You'll know which SAs are questionable within the first few weeks or so of working with them.
agreed. getting an offer isn't that difficult if you want one. you'll have cases where qualified candidates are rejected (fit isn't a match) but from what i've seen, those are rare.
as an analyst, by the end of your second full week, we have a pretty good idea which interns we are going to give offers out to.
It's really not hard at all to be offered a position, all you have to do is prove you're not retarded, have a half-decent personality, speak english and be the last one to leave the office.
When I interned at a MM this summer, I slept in the office Monday through Friday. Needless to say, I was the first one notified that I'd be called back.
That's certainly a rosy portrait you're painting, but how then do you explain GS/MS offering only 50% (or in some instances substantially less) of their summer class?
I asked an analyst at GS/MS about the rumored 30% offer rates, and they mentioned the only time they've ever heard of that happening was around the 2001-2002 time period when even full-time analysts were being laid off. Other than that, they claimed it was just a silly rumor, and that offer rates are usually around 70-80%.
Exactly what I've heard as well -- no need to worry so much.
I would say at least 80%. Summered at MS IBD. Everyone in my group got asked back.
if it's no big deal why do all those above mentioned cases didn't get an offer anywhere?
In London it seems to be very easy to get a FT at a similar or slightly worse bank after not getting the SA Offer at your BB bank. At least that's what i've heard, and I know of at least one guy who did this. Surely banks will prefer people with experience who clearly know why they want to go into banking over students who didn't do an internship at all. There must be enough interns who don't get an offer based on personal fit, or at least thats what you can tell the other bank.
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hmmmmm here's one for the board elders anyone else who might care to weigh in. I'm from a top target and am going to be a SA at a mid-range (LB, Citi, ML , JPM, etc.) BB this summer.
On my resume, my "cumulative GPA" includes credits transferred from my previous college, which bumps it up a about .07, and I didn't list that previous college on my rez, as I was told it wasn't necessary. Also, I had just started an internship when I applied so that was on my rez, and I switched a few days after I applied to another one (I sent them an update a few days ago, because technically I didnt really work there as I switched within a week) On one of my previous jobs, the date is extended slightly.
Will the HR folks ding me so much for this as to preclude me from the FT offer regardless of my performance? Should I tell them about it now? Should I not chance it, opt out now while I'm ahead (cite some BS reason of course) and do something else this summer, as they talked about above, and just focus on "knocking the FT interviews out of the park" this fall? Would love to know what you all think/would do! Gracias!
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