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I always hear that at Wharton, Harvard and Princeton it's super hard and competitive to land an ibanking job as there're many students fighting for limited spots. If this was the case, then why would these same banks recruit at Semi-Targets such as Stern, Ross and Northwestern? If they want the best talent possible and they think that the best talent are at the top Ivy's, why wont they just recruit there...ONLY? If you don't understand what im staying, I'll put it like this...
Goldman Sachs has 200 spots open for potential 1st year analyst.
Wharton, Harvard and Princeton altogether has about 2000 students who want these spots at Goldman. But instead of filling these spots up with just "the big 3", they only sign up about 100 from these schools and go recruit at the "Tier 2" schools such as Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia, Stanford, Yale and MIT. At these schools, they sign up about 65 or 70 in total and move on the the "Tier 3" schools such as Ross, Stern, UVA,etc and take about 25 to 30 kids. And the rest are filled with people from schools such as U of T, UCLA, KU and other NON TARGET SCHOOL cold callers.
I was wondering why don't they just recruit at the 3 main schools if they think that they're the best talent and they want only the best?

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Comments (107)

  • In reply to kendall
    chubbybunny's picture

    kendall:
    brotherbear:
    Here's the real answer to your question.

    One day, when you're a bit older, you'll take a course on logic, and you'll learn that to defeat an argument, you must either attack the predicates or the logic itself. Your logic is reasonable, but I reject your predicates.

    One of your main assumptions is that Goldman believes kids from H/P/W (by the way, Yale is certainly a top target in the States) are better than kids from all other schools. That's simply untrue. If they thought that way, then they would recruit almost exclusively from those schools. But Goldman doesn't recruit solely from those schools. And it's for all of the reasons people highlighted above.

    I live with two GS traders. Neither of them went to HYPWS. In London, that list would look like: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL (since undergrads cannot attend LBS). Even at Lazard (who bums pedigree more than just about anyone), about half of the analyst class came from outside of those schools.

    The quality of your education is only an indicator of your intelligence, but you don't have to be particularly clever to be an investment banker. You have to be willing to work VERY long hours doing exceedingly remedial accounting, spreadsheet work, and powerpoint presentations (pitch books). Moreover, at a senior level, you're eventually going to have to be able to convince C-level executives at major corporations to go through with a deal (that's how you get paid in investment banking--it's based on deal flow). That's the real reason there is a skew toward HYPWS kids on Wall Street. In 20 years, those kids will--in all likelihood--know a larger number of high-level executives than kids that go to SUNY.

    Just about anyone that graduates with a 3.75+ GPA from a top 100 school can do the work of an investment banking analyst or associate. But there is a serious difference between doing the job of an analyst and doing the job of a director or MD. You'll never make it to MD based on your spectacular Excel skills. You need to know people, and be generally likeable (in the end, you're selling the exact same product every other I-banker is selling). That's why you need to relax and go hang out with your friends. Your 15-years-old for Christ's sake! I currently do business with people I knew when I was 15, and I didn't know anything about I-banking until my senior year in college.

    And I did my undergrad at a 'tier 2' target, and I still got better offers than just about anyone on this board. And I went to a MUCH worse high school than you do. That's why I can guess why Duke is your first choice--they are the best school that offers merit scholarships. But that shouldn't matter for you based on how poor you claim to be. With a 3.8 at Bronx Science, if you get a 2300+ SAT, and do some solid extracurriculars, you'll get into a top Ivy, and you won't have to pay for it (it's called financial aid). Moreover, if you live in the projects (apologies for the generalization), I suspect there is a good chance you are an ethnic minority (think African-American or Hispanic). If that's the case, you'll get in everywhere. If it's not, and you happen to be a poor white kid living in the projects, you do need to work harder than minorities in your situation. Affirmative action really blows for socioeconomically disadvantaged Caucasians.

    Either way, you need to work hard, relax a bit, and focus on having a good time in high school and getting into a good college. And one day, many years from now, maybe you'll sit across the table from me, and I'll ask you why you want to be a trader, and why I should pick you over all of the other kids from HYPWS. And you'll tell me that you're hungrier than they are, and I'll believe you.


    great post, I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm black(which makes me a URM). Ima print out that post and hang it up, really inspirational.

    You're black? Focus more of your efforts on becoming on getting recruited by the NBA, than wall street. Either that or jail haha

  • In reply to chubbybunny
    kendall's picture

    chubbybunny:
    kendall:
    brotherbear:
    Here's the real answer to your question.

    One day, when you're a bit older, you'll take a course on logic, and you'll learn that to defeat an argument, you must either attack the predicates or the logic itself. Your logic is reasonable, but I reject your predicates.

    One of your main assumptions is that Goldman believes kids from H/P/W (by the way, Yale is certainly a top target in the States) are better than kids from all other schools. That's simply untrue. If they thought that way, then they would recruit almost exclusively from those schools. But Goldman doesn't recruit solely from those schools. And it's for all of the reasons people highlighted above.

    I live with two GS traders. Neither of them went to HYPWS. In London, that list would look like: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL (since undergrads cannot attend LBS). Even at Lazard (who bums pedigree more than just about anyone), about half of the analyst class came from outside of those schools.

    The quality of your education is only an indicator of your intelligence, but you don't have to be particularly clever to be an investment banker. You have to be willing to work VERY long hours doing exceedingly remedial accounting, spreadsheet work, and powerpoint presentations (pitch books). Moreover, at a senior level, you're eventually going to have to be able to convince C-level executives at major corporations to go through with a deal (that's how you get paid in investment banking--it's based on deal flow). That's the real reason there is a skew toward HYPWS kids on Wall Street. In 20 years, those kids will--in all likelihood--know a larger number of high-level executives than kids that go to SUNY.

    Just about anyone that graduates with a 3.75+ GPA from a top 100 school can do the work of an investment banking analyst or associate. But there is a serious difference between doing the job of an analyst and doing the job of a director or MD. You'll never make it to MD based on your spectacular Excel skills. You need to know people, and be generally likeable (in the end, you're selling the exact same product every other I-banker is selling). That's why you need to relax and go hang out with your friends. Your 15-years-old for Christ's sake! I currently do business with people I knew when I was 15, and I didn't know anything about I-banking until my senior year in college.

    And I did my undergrad at a 'tier 2' target, and I still got better offers than just about anyone on this board. And I went to a MUCH worse high school than you do. That's why I can guess why Duke is your first choice--they are the best school that offers merit scholarships. But that shouldn't matter for you based on how poor you claim to be. With a 3.8 at Bronx Science, if you get a 2300+ SAT, and do some solid extracurriculars, you'll get into a top Ivy, and you won't have to pay for it (it's called financial aid). Moreover, if you live in the projects (apologies for the generalization), I suspect there is a good chance you are an ethnic minority (think African-American or Hispanic). If that's the case, you'll get in everywhere. If it's not, and you happen to be a poor white kid living in the projects, you do need to work harder than minorities in your situation. Affirmative action really blows for socioeconomically disadvantaged Caucasians.

    Either way, you need to work hard, relax a bit, and focus on having a good time in high school and getting into a good college. And one day, many years from now, maybe you'll sit across the table from me, and I'll ask you why you want to be a trader, and why I should pick you over all of the other kids from HYPWS. And you'll tell me that you're hungrier than they are, and I'll believe you.


    great post, I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm black(which makes me a URM). Ima print out that post and hang it up, really inspirational.

    You're black? Focus more of your efforts on becoming on getting recruited by the NBA, than wall street. Either that or jail haha

    You're racist? Focus more of your time learning how to write a correct sentence instead of trying to be funny.

  • futuretrader1999's picture

    so i go to lehigh and got offers from 3 bb's
    in front office
    so much for your theory

    IVY for Life

  • In reply to HarvardOrBust
    chubbybunny's picture

    HarvardOrBust:
    futuretrader1999:
    so i go to lehigh and got offers from 3 bb's
    in front office
    so much for your theory

    What's lehigh?

    I think it's some restaurant... not too sure but I think it is

  • Malakari's picture

    There was a post up there that was great, it went along the lines of:

    Why would HYP accept kids from Tier 6 schools like Bronx Science while it can accept Tier 1 schools like Collegiate, Andover, Choate?

  • In reply to Steelo
    Warhead's picture

    Steelo:
    kendall, I don't know why everyone is hating on your thread. I think you bring up a great point that I've always wondered myself. I always hear that top colleges such as Harvard, Princeton, and Yale are very competitive and difficult to get into. If this is the case, then why do they accept students from Tier 2 high schools such as Bronx Science? If they want the best talent possible, and they believe the best talent is at Tier 1 high schools such as Stuyvesant, why won't they just accept students from there ONLY?

    Not to mention it would be a stretch to even call Bronx Science a tier 2. I'd say stuy, hchs, dalton, etc. would be more tier w/ Exeter, Andover a step above

    Oh god hs tiers... what have i unleashed upon this world :P

  • kendall's picture

    well if st. pauls would give enough finacial aid, i could be there instead of bx sci....and @futuretrader1999, i never said my opinion on college tiers and never said a school is better than another.

  • chubbybunny's picture

    this kid thinks he's going to get in HYP with a 3.8 from Bronx Science haha. In about 3 years we'll see him upload a "NON-TARGET RESUME FOR PWM" in the resume section and watch it get shitted on by forum members LOL

  • MrV's picture

    I don't know about this tier system of High Schools, but Bronx and Stuy are about the same. Tons of intelligent kids that are on the same academic level as kids from Andover.

    Banking.

  • Solidarity's picture

    kids from Stuyvesant and Bronx are smarter than the vast majority of Andover/Exeter kids I've met

    A majority of those prep school kids are system smart i.e. they are brought up in an environment that made them read Thoreau and Tennyson. Any fucking kid can do that

    Math and tech schools blow them out of the water in terms of intelligence but not in terms of overall well-roundedness and social grace

  • In reply to chubbybunny
    kendall's picture

    chubbybunny:
    this kid thinks he's going to get in HYP with a 3.8 from Bronx Science haha. In about 3 years we'll see him upload a "NON-TARGET RESUME FOR PWM" in the resume section and watch it get shitted on by forum members LOL

    What's your problem?What have I done to you? I never said anything bad about any college or anything good about any college. I didn't post my gpa to brag as I'm not even in the top 20% at my school. You haven't contributed to the thread, but you continue to try and make me feel bad. Why are you hating on someone 10 years older than you for asking a simple question. I dont even want to go to Harvard or any other "fancy" Ivy League school. I want to go to Duke, so obviously im not trying to say Ivy is better than the rest and Im NOT trying to say that Banks should ONLY recruit at Wharton, Harvard and Princeton. But I can garantee you that I'm a better student than you and that I'll be a better banker than you. You seem like the person who doesn't work for anything and made it to where you are today by a well connected parent. Kudos dude, you can hold ur own against a freshman in HS...

  • KevinNYC's picture

    Frankly I feel bad for any 15 year old who knows what investment banking is. Go practice for your drivers license test and play grab ass in the back of a movie theater

  • In reply to KevinNYC
    thunderfan118's picture

    KevinNYC:
    Frankly I feel bad for any 15 year old who knows what investment banking is. Go practice for your drivers license test and play grab ass in the back of a movie theater

    +1

  • In reply to chubbybunny
    futuretrader1999's picture

    chubbybunny:
    HarvardOrBust:
    futuretrader1999:
    so i go to lehigh and got offers from 3 bb's
    in front office
    so much for your theory

    What's lehigh?

    I think it's some restaurant... not too sure but I think it is

    its a restaurant that pays 150k to a kid that just turned 20

    guess the food tastes pretty damn good

    IVY for Life

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  • TheKing's picture

    Did he died?

  • In reply to KevinNYC
    thedose's picture

    KevinNYC:
    Frankly I feel bad for any 15 year old who knows what investment banking is. Go practice for your drivers license test and play grab ass in the back of a movie theater

    That's what i've been thinking since the start of this fail thread!

    "I am Shiva the god of death"

  • freroht's picture

    Because the big banks can choose people from other schools. Come on, they are not here to hire for fun, they have a business to run. Go to sleep.

  • In reply to MrV
    Steelo's picture

    MrV:
    I don't know about this tier system of High Schools, but Bronx and Stuy are about the same. Tons of intelligent kids that are on the same academic level as kids from Andover.

    Quite untrue - you'd be surprised what an extra 30 points on the Specialized Science High Schools Admissions Test means about your intelligence. Stuy >>>> Bx Sci

  • Amphibia's picture

    HYPWMS, 3.8+ GPA - they are overrated, of course, but in the end, these names and stats will make it MUCH easier to get hired after college. When it comes to being fired, all kinds of other reasons will come into play - personality, performance issues, drive, etc.

    From experience, the stereotype I have of 4.0 students, particularly those from math/science intensive schools is that they tend to think of the problems and solutions in terms of being right/wrong, like what you are used from textbook cases - solve the problem, lookup answer in back page, compare, if right move to another problem, if wrong, check again. In reality, especially in business/economics sciences, there are no right/wrong answers, there are only solutions that are slightly better or worse, and that too depends more on what you do - action, people you know know and similar things, rather than how complicated is the math you used to work out the problem. For example, a simpler solution can be much more effective because you can pitch/explain/put to action that to a higher number or people, while some smart looking model based on dozens of derivative equations will fail because no-one understands it, or has any inclination to spend time trying to understand it. If you go quant/academia path, creativity is factor that will start to play later on. Excellent grades do not really imply creativity, and if you burn out, that will seriously impact your drive and creativity.

    For a thought, look at the profiles of senior people at GS or KKR, the % of people there that are graduates from target schools is much lower at senior levels when compared to analyst/associate classes. That tells something.

  • In reply to Steelo
    MrV's picture

    Steelo:
    MrV:
    I don't know about this tier system of High Schools, but Bronx and Stuy are about the same. Tons of intelligent kids that are on the same academic level as kids from Andover.

    Quite untrue - you'd be surprised what an extra 30 points on the Specialized Science High Schools Admissions Test means about your intelligence. Stuy >>>> Bx Sci

    I disagree, Those 30 points are indicative of your intelligence in 8th grade(when the test is administered), which is hardly a reliable measure when you're talking long-term. Stuy-Bklyn Tech is the case I would say there is enough spread to see a difference. Stuy == Bx > Tech(100points). I'm going to stop with this. Feel like this thread has deviated enough from the original topic.

    Banking.

  • booyakasha's picture

    What 15 year old knows who Lloyd Blankfien is? Sounds fishy. I'm 27, and I just recently learned who he is after becoming more interested in finance careers. Frankly, I'm not even sure I spelled his name correctly. I had probably heard of him before from reading the newspaper, but certainly wasn't making any references to on message boards.

  • mike55555's picture

    Did you ever think, just maybe, that a formal education is not always the key ingredient to success?

    Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions.

    -Niccolo Machiavelli

  • Ludwig Von's picture

    Something important that has not been mentioned is that people's interests change as they grow up. Don't think just because you're 15 or even 25 that you will want to be in finance your whole life, because even if you don't change, the industry will, in ways no one will expect. Doing the best you can all the time is what allows you to switch into new areas that excite you.

    Also, a lot of people are telling you to have fun in HS, but don't waste your time the way every other kid does. Be sure to be productive and constantly learning new things, and especially new methods to control yourself. Now is the only time you can experiment and get away with it, so try to do the best and don't ever care what people think, as long as you're really trying to figure out how to do better. Social skills (with adults) are very important, and limit a lot of smart people from being successful. Finally, be sure to kill all your bad habits before they become permanent parts of your character. The older people get, the harder it is to change themselves, so be sure to set yourself straight early on.

    "Alas, how many have been persecuted for the wrong of having been right?"
    -Jean-Baptiste Say

  • sayandarula's picture

    holy shit... this is the same kid who talked about jerking off to porn on my most recent forum post (which oddly had nothing to do with porn). i'm not sure if he's a troll or just has severe social retardation....

    Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

  • bfin's picture

    Kendell me and you need to have a chat.....your goals and ideas are all screwed up....

    The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

    WSO is not your personal search function.

  • someotherguy's picture

    This thread covered the main points, but an old boss had a view that I am sure is not unique on the street:

    Guys from tier 3 schools are likely to be a lot more motivated to work their ass off than the guy who has been the "favorite" his whole life from Harvard.

    I have seen my share of pompous douches with "pedigrees" show up as interns and think their last name or family connections is all they need to succeed. These are the guys that tend to show up with 10k watches on their wrist and a $3k suit that doesn't even fit right. Most of the time they can be bitch slapped a few times and then they get in line, but I have seen a few interns not get offers, and analysts that just couldn't shake their attitude get told straight out that they weren't VP material at the firm.

    Now to be fair, I have seen two guys from third tier schools that I am not sure exactly how they got an offer and didn't make it, but I have never seen a guy from a shitty school show up expecting people to get him coffee. Those guys also tend to be a lot more loyal to their managers.

    That boss in particular, would always look for entrepreneurial type guys- the guys who instead of only working excel problems from textbooks, actually created forecasts for their own businesses. If you had a 3.0 but got a business off the ground and sold it, that was worth more than a 4.0 from Wharton any day. And I agree with him- VP's and MD's always talk about wanting to hire the go-getter, and then tend to hire MBAs who have had their head in a book for the past 20 years. Doesn't really compute when you think about it.

  • In reply to kendall
    HFFBALLfan123's picture

    kendall:
    jbert112:
    Is this a serious thread?

    And how the hell are Yale, NYU, NW, and Stanford not "target schools"


    i didn't say they weren't, i just said that they were a -->step belowjudge.

    How can you suck so much at life at such a young age....give up.

  • econ's picture

    OP, you're young, so I'd recommend reading this: http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html

    If I could go back to high school, I would take this advice incredibly seriously. In fact, I'm even trying to implement some of these things now in my mid-20s, so I actually recommend all the rest of you guys read this article too.

  • DangaZone's picture

    The problem on Wall Street is people with the same mentality as you.....

    Some of the best analysts I work with are from non-targets. Granted theyre trying to prove themselves or whatever, but who cares, they work harder on average than some of the analysts from targets (myself included)

  • In reply to econ
    ModusOperandi's picture

    econ:
    OP, you're young, so I'd recommend reading this: http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html

    If I could go back to high school, I would take this advice incredibly seriously. In fact, I'm even trying to implement some of these things now in my mid-20s, so I actually recommend all the rest of you guys read this article too.

    I think Daniel Tosh's graduation speech that he highlighted in his stand up is far superior

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  • In reply to kendall
    UFOinsider's picture

    Get busy living

  • In reply to kendall
    skiboyne's picture
  • In reply to brotherbear
    Ske7ch's picture

    - Bulls make money. Bears make money. Pigs get slaughtered.
    - The harder you work, the luckier you become.
    - I believe in the "Golden Rule": the man with the gold rules.

  • TraderDaily's picture
  • In reply to TraderDaily
    UFOinsider's picture

    Get busy living

  • In reply to UFOinsider
    bfin's picture

    The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

    WSO is not your personal search function.

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