I'm just wondering... why aren't there as many people trying to break into medicine? The only possible road block in that path is that it's time consuming to actually get started. Price shouldn't be an issue because your various student loans are a plenty, and after you graduate, in fairly short order you're earning a steady $2-$300K with a reasonably high probability (didn't want to say guaranteed, but I haven't met many who didn't break into medicine).
A relative of mine works 4 days a week (internal medicine I believe, but I could be mistaken) and makes $200K.
Originally that was my plan, but I couldn't do the Hard Sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Biology). If I went that route, I would've got a 2.5+ GPA which wouldn't be sufficient to get into Medical School. I'm more of a math guy.
I know someone who is in his final stages of Med school and he told me "I'll be a "in debt Millionaire" before i'll really be a millionaire. No thanks.
Doctors can't get carry
Because it's being a doctor. Who on a finance forum wants to be a doctor?
As much as we like to portray finance as the hardest thing in the world to get into it pales in comparison to the sacrifice and opportunity cost of being a doctor. Get decent marks to get into a good undergrad program and have a few balls bounce your way and boom, you're in front office. Being a doctor is grinding through a million years of very expensive school for a much better lifestyle but similar comp to a third year analyst. It's almost similar to doing your undergrad, MFin., MBA and law school consecutively.
I would argue that really doesn't make a ton of sense but that seems to be the world works. In a society where we piss away money on all kinds of dumb sht it's a shame that there is any financial barriers for those who have the will and aptitude to be doctors.
Wages in medicine have been dropping, from what I understand. It obviously isn't shit pay, but with tuition rising, it's not the goldmine it once was.
And yeah, it really isn't something you should feign interest while pursuing.
A friend of mine had really bad teeth and went to a world class dentist to get them fixed up. At one of his appointments, my friend started chatting with the dentist, and the dentist told him about a 40-something year old colleague of his who still had 6 figures (!) of student loan debt. He asked this colleague of his whether the debt load has ever influenced how he treats his patients and the quality of his work, and he replies, "Yes, all the time."
It really sucks to become a doctor or dentist. All of the people who I know that went into this line of work did so because their immigrant parents practically forced them to. Also almost all doctors/dentists I know are alcoholics, prescription drug abusers, obese, and/or have cheated on their spouse.
At Lehman, when we did our drug test for job applicants, we didn't even test for marijuana, as we wouldn't be able to hire a significant proportion of qualified applicants. Of course, we didn't tell them that when they had to pee in a cup, but such is life. We just didn't want crackheads or junkies.
Doctors are a bunch of pussies trying to save lives/cure people and all of that bullshit. All these guys wearing blue unitards or whatever those things are called. Completely ridiculous. Nothing but highly educated nurses to me.
+SB. I think I speak for everyone when I say that you are an absolute machine! "Outside of 1.75 L bottle or so of Bombay Sapphire per day." Man I wish lehman was back.
Yes indeed, people in finance are plagued by the same problems that doctors struggle. But I'd much rather not have that insane debt on my head.
-Medicine is largely a noble profession (with obvious exceptions and bad people/situations). Finance is very important in the sense that functioning capital markets drive real economic growth. Economic growth improves living standards and overall wellness. That being said, the day-to-day parts of it aren't really noble and people don't get into it for the improvement of society. A lot of people go into medicine for the money/prestige, but a lot of people become doctors because they legitimately want to help sick people get better. Financiers aren't evil, but there is a large distinction in motivations.
-Getting into medicine for the money is a terrible idea. Debt loads are going up and wages are going down. All of the healthcare insurers are merging, all of the hospitals are merging, but doctors sure as hell aren't unionizing. We are only a year or two away from having 3 large private insurance companies, several small/noncompetitive ones, and the government. The big money that came from a being a specialist and having your own practice is getting more and more rare. I know orthopedists that consistently make upper six figures and a few that even make millions, but they are partners in private practice with large businesses. Specialists on staff at hospitals make 300k-500k, with the occasional rockstars going higher. The family practice doctors, pediatricians, and dentists making 150k-200k and servicing 200k of debt are effectively living on 100k in their 30s.
-I'm not going to start a pissing match about "Is it harder to be a post-MBA PE associate at Blackstone or get into an neurosurgery residency?" The former option is infinitely better when it comes to making money. A 2nd year banking analyst makes the same as a pediatrician. A lot of HF/PE associates in their mid-20s make more money than brain surgeons in their 40s. There is a reason why a lot of people hate this business.
My fiance works in medicine as a nurse and we live in a Boston where medicine is probably the biggest industry. All you have to do is talk to some of these doctors and see how the landscape is changing.
Private practices are very rare in my area now because if you are associated with a top notch hospital people may not use you as a doctor. Family practice/PCP work long hours and get paid too little for their time and new urgent cares are stealing their business.
Also as a medical professional you are dealing with the general population, which I am personally not a fan of.
I tell my fiance she should become a CRNA instead. Only 2 years of school, 100-200k income and less interaction with psychotic assholes.
Case and point is you really have to want to help people and it pays better than social work.
Mt wife is a nurse. Considered CRNA, but thought it was the most boring thing in the world. She likes interacting with patients, even thought there are a lot of aholes. People have varying interests.
I don't know what fantasy land you live in. As somebody who didn't do the family thing and go into medicine (my whole family is literally in medicine), I can tell you that you're wrong on this. While definitely a lot of different specializations don't make a ton of money, comparing some 20-year old associate to a neurosurgeon at a hospital or with a practice is a huge leap. Don't get it twisted - you can make a shitton of money (and have a higher probability of doing so) in CERTAIN areas of medicine. Yeah, it takes a lonngggg time but if you really enjoy that (and most people that go into that kind of stuff's family is in it and they do enjoy it, it's not a money thing) then you have a good shot at taking your business, opening a practice, etc. Not as easy to open your own business w your finance experience
-The only 20 year old associates I know of are at Subway -I'm referring to people that are 26/27 and have top flight jobs at large PE firms or hedge funds. Its not uncommon for these people to make 350k-600k. There are outliers on both sides of that range. -According to the AAMC, the median wage for all academic neurosurgeons is is $508k, for clinical it is $700k. If the age range for practicing neurosurgeons after their residency/fellowship is roughly 35-60, the median is probably a fair estimate for somebody in their 40s.
http://residency.wustl.edu/CHOOSING/SPECDESC/Pages/Neurosurgery.aspx
Again, I think people practicing medicine generally want to help people and have better intentions than people in finance. I'm not living in a fantasy land though.
Why not be a doctor? The answer to your question is a basic TVM/NPV calculation.
society has failed/would fail if people decide/decided on being a doctor because of the money
it's a real tragedy if people decided to be a doctor because of the money
You are really missing the opportunity cost story here.
Lifetime earnings are nowhere near as great when you have 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, 3-5 years of residency (interest on your loan will accrue during this time), and starting at $130k and reaching $220k (assuming general practice).
Those are your inputs for "Why not be a doctor? The answer to your question is a basic TVM/NPV calculation."
making $200k before malpractice insurance premiums I'm guessing.
go into medicine if you legitimately want to save lives, not for the money. the way you clean up in medicine is by owning your own practice in a specialty field and have a monopoly, for example a small down cardiac surgeon or orthopedic surgeon. big money, 100% of the market, etc.
only downside is obamacare is making it increasingly difficult for those practices to even exist, so medical groups are buying up those practices and thus docs' pay is getting cut. plus, you have some unique tax shielding strategies when you're at a small shop that vanish once you get under a big umbrella.
not to mention the debt is insane and you have a very long period of time before you break even.
my final point: this forum values instant gratification and exit opps, forget about either of those if you're a doctor. you have 3-4 years of school & rotations and 3-5 years of residency before you start making above-shit pay, so that puts you at 28-31 before you are making what a 2nd-3rd year analyst makes at a bank, and your hours still aren't great. those 4 day a week docs are sunsetting.
exit opps? forget about it. if you started as an internist but want to transition to pathology or gastroenterology, fuggedaboutit. you reap what you sow, and you're stuck like that forever. there's no IB-PE-MBA-PE-BSD path in medicine, you simply get more senior in your field, maybe get published, etc. I don't think it's a bad thing, but there's not a ton of room to move around the industry.
but yeah, you're on WSO, maybe if there was a MD Oasis, but I think you actually have to have passion to want to be a doc, unlike the kids who just want to say they broke a 6 figure W2 by age 24 having a "passion" for finance.
My sister is in her second year in med school. On top of 4 years of UG, she has to go through another 4 years of med school. To top that off, you have a few years of residency where you're making a BB back office salary. Only until after a few years of residency and a couple hundred thousands in debt are you able to make a merely 200-300k.
Not sure where everyone is getting these low figures. I have friends just finishing fellowships in things such as radiology, surgery, etc. First year post fellowship is like 300-450k in their fields. That is straight salary.
Would you mind posting their W2s with personal information blanked out? At most websites I've seen the highest median wage doesn't go much above 250k.
I don't think my friends would lie. Though here is a quick google search on radiology
http://www rsna org/NewsDetail.aspx?id=14256
Lol is this a serious question? Can you ask your friends for their w2's so you can put them up on the internet?".
As I suspected, most of this website is immature little finance groupies so go ahead and pour on the monkey shit as idgaf. "The answer to your question is a basic TVM/NPV calculation." wooooww... what a bunch of wankers. Thanks tips. Less finance theory and more comps from you.
radiology and pathology are definitely where it's at. not all docs get fellowships however, so your friends are clearly above average. surgeons have higher malpractice premiums so I'd assume that their take home isn't as good as a lab doc like a radiologist or pathologist.
your figures are not unheard of, but it depends a lot on your market, your undergrad, whether or not you're a specialist, received a fellowship, etc.
Totally agree. That said, the discussion was leaning towards comparing comp for guys in PE/HF, thus I'd argue that the comparison goes to medical gunners.
If I were to bring back the SAT I'd argue something along the lines of
HF/PE : Radiology F500 Finance : General Practitioner
Ahhh, nothing I love more than seeing the 30th "why not be a doctor" thread.
People should do what they enjoy the most. Being a doctor is a great career, but it isn't some magic ticket to wealth. Just look at the total cost vs roi.
8 years of med school plus 3-4 years of residency has a massive cost as well as opportunity cost. Shit. Thats basically 6 to 8 years of minimally earning years. Compare that with even corporate banking and your like 500-800k in the hole. Not to mention student loans that accrue interest.
Doctors make bank in a select few specialties, in a select few hospitals and when they open their own practice (aka become a business owner and not just a doctor). The flip side is you actually help people and hopefully improve lives. Plus people of all kinds respect doctors while bankers usually get confused with tellers.
Do what you want and enriches your life. This dick measuring is pathetic.
You know there was an episode of Scrubs based around this exact topic: medicine vs banking.
Aside from the fact that the path to medicine is long and super expensive (and surely not a price everyone's parents are willing to pay), it's also highly competitive: Do you think hospitals would allow someone who was in the bottom percentile of his/her class to have a medical license? This is a field where people's lives are at risk, which means only the best can be trusted.
Why not be a dragon?
Med school students will tell you: "I want to be a doctor because I want to help other people. But this is really a pretext for getting a high-paying career out of college, because I lack the initiative, leadership, or spine for any career path requiring significant independent decision-making. I can study and memorize things very well because that's all what my backwards Asian parents taught me to do. I don't really think about current trends in the healthcare industry or recent advances in medical research; that stuff is kind of boring to me. I'm really just doing this because it's the highest paying thing out of college (we don't brag about it because everyone knows). Wanna get bubble tea?"
You can get into med school from Nontargets' R' Us'.
This website really needs to have retired topics. This should be one of them.
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