Mod note: Blast from the Past - "Best of Eddie." This was originally posted in October 2011.
Time for a little econ history lesson, guys. Niall Ferguson gave this great Ted talk in July explaining how and why the West holds all the power in the world despite being a fairly meager portion of the global population. He breaks it down into six "apps": Competition, the Scientific Revolution, Property Rights, Modern Medicine, the Consumer Society, and the Work Ethic. It's pretty interesting to see the divergence in average global incomes from 1500 to today. This might be a little too theoretical for some of you, but he makes some solid points. Now the question is: How do we stay on top when everyone has access to the same formula?
Will give this a view tonight and post my thoughts. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent points. Especially shooting down the arguments of how the West has used imperialism and basically taken from poorer countries to get where it is today. Countless empires have done the same without experiencing the economic, technological, and societal growth of today. He did leave out a couple points which I think can also explain the reason for divergence: individual versus collectivism and democracy. There are exceptions, but these are definitely useful ingredients. And a smaller reason, but since this is on Wall Street Oasis, is the banking system, connecting those than want to save and those that want to borrow
This was a very good watch. Perfect way to start my day!
Dr. Ferguson is amazing. His book, the ascent of money is an eye opener.
Unless the OWS and Tea Party extremist types win out and burn the country to the ground. Then, yeah, a lot of other countries will catch up and surpass us.
You're forgetting the key ingredient to America's success. 400 years of slavery. It's pretty easy to get ahead when you have an army of slaves at your disposal.
Every European nation had slavery. We fought a civil war, in large part, because of it. Whatever benefit slavery provided it was ate up in the civil war and subsequent years.
Last I checked, Europe is also part of the Western world. The West is where it is because historically it has exploited and usurped the rest of the world. That is the only point I'm trying to make, and only a fool would think otherwise.
You mentioned America specifically. And yes, most likely we have benefited from exploitation. Such is life though.
Slavery has absolutely cost this country more than it benefited from it.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please enlighten me.
LOL
dude, you are truly the Hamburger Helper of threads -- turning good into awesome
in all seriousness: cheap/free labor retards economic progress. look at china vs west for past 500 years. coolie labor economics = no incentive for mechanization. the south's weakness was revealed in the civil war: an 18th century agrarian power fighting a 19th century industrial one.
I've always been a fan of Niall Ferguson, His book Empire is the dope shit.
Please, slaves had no incentive to work. They often left their plantations for weeks on end. Productivity was far greater in the North, where the Protestant work ethic kept workers in the fields and factories 16 hours a day, 7 days a week.
In fact, the entire Abolotionist movement was based on the idea that slaves should be exposed to the same work ethic and morality as whites. You aren't taught this today, but it is the truth. Slaves were known to not marry, to dance (which used to be a big deal), and to enthusiastically fornicate with one another. White Protestants were forbirdden from doing any of those things, and were ostracized from their communities if they engaged in those activities. White Protestants wanted to Christianize slaves, and instill a new work ethic and morality. Sure, they were ahead of their time because they believed that slaves and free men were equals. But the real reasons they believed in abolotion were far from promoting equality, but were instead to instill their own moral agenda.
The only reason the south desparetely hung on to the system was because it would not be economical any other way for it to exist. Slaves weren't productive at all, but it would be unprofitable completely to hire white workers to do the same work. Thus, plantation owners tolerated slavery because it was the only way to make their businesses work ecnomically.
Slavery did cost this country, in terms of opportunity cost, because if those slaves had been free Christians, instilled with the Protestant work ethic, they would have been considerably more productive.
I'm sure if these slaves were allowed to take 3 week vacations and be unproductive while still getting their food and shelter paid for, I doubt freedom would have been so sought after. Get real dude.
A staggering amount of American history revolves around morally zealous initiatives: LIBOR, do you have any documentation for this? I'm a fan of history and have never heard of this, can you help verify?
Please explain how Brazil, a former Portuguese colony where tens of thousands of slaves were brought ~40 years before the first slave shipment to the US, and where slavery was still legal ~25 years after the abolition of slavery in the US, has nothing to show for this "economic propeller". No question the American slave system was more economically efficient, but South America and the West Indies are still seriously lagging behind many Western and Asian nations.
I don't think it's fair to say slavery is solely responsible for the position that the US, Canada, UK and other western nations enjoy today.
No comment, but my statement stands on its own. If I could go back in time I would of killed every southern slave owner myself.
Why ? Most slaves were happy with their lives. They had a great life style.
I would go back in time and save them from you.
In before LIBOR lowers the boom...
@manbearpig Check yourself before you wreck yourself, brother:
A Renegade History of the United States
Slavery is/was many things, including one of the few truly objective evils in the world, but a productive business model it is not.
@UFO Insider - I'm guessing the link I posted is the documentation LIBOR is referring to, since it was he who tipped me off to it a couple months ago.
There's a pretty famous book that I've heard mentioned a few times on the economics of slavery: Time on the Cross. I haven't had time to read it yet, but one of the authors, Fogel, ended up winning a Nobel prize in economics, so it can't be too bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_on_the_Cross:_The_Economics_of_Americ… Time on the Cross: The Economics of American Slavery
manbearpig, you're missing the point. slavery isn't some unique "killer app" that the west used to get ahead, but a fact of history. throughout long periods of history people enslaved each other all around the world. "exploiting others" is something everyone tried to do. and yet the west ended up on top... why? well i think niall ferguson makes a pretty good case.
A guy named Pol Pot of Khmer Rouge enslaved a whole country quite recently - in late 1970s, but somehow it did not work out that great economically.
I'm sure there was an Arab Niall Ferguson in the 12th century writing book such as "The Caliphate: Why The Good Times will Last Forever"
Except there is unprecedented divergence (which is now converging). Ferguson showed the chart in the beginning of the per capita income ratios between US/China and UK/India. They were pretty much flat until 1500, and then the west soared. The differences by a factor of 10, 20, etc between incomes had never happened in world history.
Yeah thanks chief i watched the rest when i got home
ivoteforthatguy, you obviously didn't watch the video.
actually i did but i stopped right in the middle. what makes you think i didn't watch the video?
@Eddie, thanks for the backup. That is exactly the documentation I was referring to
As for ivoteforthatguy's comment, I'd like to see a chart of the West vs. Muslim world as well during Islamic golden age. Might prove to be interesting.
I would recommend this article to anyone with an interest in globalization and income disparity over the last 500 years. Its pretty long, but it is absoultely incredible.
if you look at any civilization at its apex you can without too much trouble find plenty of its scholars proclaiming that its system is awesome and the only way. NF is saying that taking any leg out from this 6 legged stool will not let it stand. i don't know about that.
Where can i get my 20 minutes back?
Start by not posting useless pithy comments
niall is a boss last time i got pretty angry at my gf was when we were watching ascent of money and she said it was boring
God bless America, Land that I love
Great presentation with excellent insights, but did anyone else notice the guy's tight-ass pants? His package was on display as much as his ideas. Fantastically euro.
Laws based on reason... that's a point that definitely resonated. The U.S./Europe have increasingly strayed from this tenant by adopting welfare state/socialist policies (social security, medicare, endless unemployment benefits etc.) which violate property rights decreasing the incentive to work/get ahead. Reason behind the West's decline, or not a chance?
Another interesting take on a similar topic is "Guns, Germs and Steel"
Personally, contrary to what UFOinsider said, I don't think that the west has such a massive advantage: or rather, I think we have it, but it is smaller than we think. Considering the rate at which China invests in some fields of technology, I can easily see them overtaking us in the long term - I am speaking 30-40 years.
That being said...step down from the pedestal, all. This thread has become yet another excuse for the conservative portion of the website to drum up the "god bless america and capitalism, europe and socialism are bad and the left is evil". (the scandinavian countries are neatly ignored in such arguments, of course)
America became A world power thanks to a free, capitalist society and AMAZING, incredible natural resources. But it became THE world power thanks to 2 world wars which completely wiped out the infrastructure and working population of all the other contenders except for one - the soviets.
There will always be nations (France) that take every chance they can to take some flaw and use it as a case to cut us down, but being intellectually honest is the simple remedy.
Preserving what we have in the long run is dependant upon imparting our way of life to our youth and the incoming waves of immigrants. I'm not so sure the current generation of leaders is doing that, so it's a reminder that our success is not guaranteed.....
The Sovjets lost more people in WW2 than any other nation...
1) Every thread is an excuse to urinate on socialism and praise the country of manifest destiny, America.
2) Two world wars that the Europeans caused themselves. We also rebuilt Europe after WWII and protected them, free of charge, from Soviet occupation.
To all the socialist people of Europe, you are welcome.
Why do you guys care so much about how the West or the US can stay on top? If China or some other country emerges as a new superpower, guess what I will do - Pack my stuff and get a job over there. Most people on this forum (or atleast a few) are highly intelligent, have a first class education and already gained some quality work experience. There is no reason why they would not be successful in other countries.
Well, one thing that I've been hearing from european professors is that while Europeans tend to "accept" immigrants, the US used to be great in "transforming" immigrants. Meaning, rather than respecting/disrespecting them, it used to have them accept the American culture over their original culture, and their original culture remained only as a subculture. Not sure whether this is still true.
Also, the "american" influence on culture seems in decline to me - while famouse movies etc are still 90% US produced, there's some sort of backlash against the symbols of US cultura influence: mcdonalds, jeans etc.
Last, the US are seen as a bully. Plain and simple. Which is hilarious, because you were far more of a bully earlier this century, and have actually calmed down in the last 20 years...but I guess that newer generations just cannot accept realpolitiks.
Now, I am not denying the overwhelming superiority of the US army, which is not likely to change over the next 20-30 years. What I am curious about is whether the US economy will be able to sustain this dominance.
Let's be honest: your politicans are doing a terrible job. Left, right, it doesn't matter: rather than coming up with solutions, they are squabbling like spoiled brats. Some repubblicans actually hope for another 4 years of a president and congress locked against each other, doing nothing. They squabble against 100 millions of discretionary spending, when they should be planning on how to cover 100s billion dollars of unfunded liabilities.
In short: you don't seem to have a plan, and are unlikely to come up with one shortly. That's what worries me. Because with all the fun I like to poke at the american's expenses, I still prefer America (or any other western democracy) as the dominating world power - and not the Chinese.
For what it's worth, I think it was Churchill who said, "Americans tend to do the right thing....but only after they have tried everything else."
**
One other side note about slavery: there's a LOT written about the fall of this, that, and the other empire and I would directly attribute slavery/rampant exploitation and abuse of power to the collapse of those civilizations. There are a LOT of factors that contribute to a powerful/great civilization [resources, population, location, etc] but slavery and exploitation seem to be very effective at undermining what should be an otherwise successful enterprise. The current political climate in America revolves around this concept more than anything else at the moment, and we're dealing with something alltogether new in the American story: legacy wealth/power capable of challenging the state......but that's another discussion completely.
Our political system is perfectly fine. It was supposed to be like this.
And the USA isn't a bully. It is just the most powerful nation looking out for itself.
But you make a good point about new immigrants, mainly the illegal kind, are not assimilating. I think it is also why you are seeing such a backlash. It might have something to do with geography also. Harder to let go of your home country when it is so close.
America will continue to dominate as long as it keeps innovating. More Elon Musk types. Other countries will never be able to catch up, the US has too much of a headstart.
The law of diminishing marginal utility/returns. Competitors will eventually catch up. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow--but eventually all great power centers shift. For the world's sake, I hope that power center isn't China ruled by the Communist Party (not necessarily communists, but certainly not benevolent) or Russia ruled by oligarchs. I think the U.S. and Western Europe have another solid century of dominance, however--they are just so overwhelmingly rich and powerful and they are allied with Japan and South Korea, Asia's dominant and rich nations.
I think it's great that other countries are attempting to challenge the U.S. and its European and Canadian counterparts in technology, science, innovation, etc. A Chinese cure for cancer wouldn't just be good for the Chinese the same way that the U.S. information technology boom over the last 30+ years hasn't just been good for the U.S.
The key ingredient that separates the west from the rest of the world is the weather: It's cold.
Elsewhere on the planet, your brain will literally fry if you stay too long outside. Thus you'll be hard pressed to accomplish any grueling, disciplined intellectual work.
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