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Interesting perspective, thanks for this. I'm hoping to go to China myself in a few years and everything you listed will be an issue!
5 is on point. I am currently working in the UK, and originally from the UK before spending high school and college in the U.S. I am already ready to go back to the U.S. based on those points alone
You're saying the US has a higher standard of living than the UK?
I think the OP was talking about moving to a more 'challenging' country still in its development phase rather than fully developed western nations...
As someone who moved to the other side of the world into a totally alien culture for work and life experience I would fully recommend it, especially in your early/mid 20s.
@researchresearch I am not in London, but another major European city. I greatly miss the little things like getting a coffee on a Sunday morning before 10am, monstrous 24 hour NY Deli food that isnt a kebab/fish n chip shop, NYC girls in summer dresses, a guarenteed summer, customer service, etc. These are First World problems, no doubt, but it is the little things that make me miss the U.S.
Like you, I definitely recommend working/studying abroad to broaden your perspective. If anything, it makes you appreciate your original location in ways you never thought you would.
@onemanwolfpack
I'm curious as to what kind of ex-pat package they offered you.
I'm heading out for an international assignment in a BRIC country in a few weeks, and while I'm not a banker (strategy for a household name F500), I was very pleasantly surprised with the generosity of my package. Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not discuss here.
I wouldn't agree that the US has the best healthcare in the world...
Definitely not the point of my post. I can assure you it's 100x better than the average level of care where I'm sitting right now.
Don't know about best, but the US indubitably has the most advanced medicine in the world. All the real cutting-edge stuff is happening at places like Mayo, Cleveland and Johns Hopkins.
If I'm down with a regular cold or a small cut or something, though? There are probably hospitals in the middle of Sub-Saharan Africa that could treat those adequately, and won't charge you hundreds of dollars for it.
Anywhos. For those thinking of moving to less-developed markets - choose wisely! Beijing in particular strikes me as a terrible place to live. Unless you have somehow evolved to be able to extract nutrients from smog.
Totally agree with you about the cutting edge research stuff. I was thinking in terms of minor clinical things: as an international student from another developed country, I try and get most of my medical/dental stuff done back home, because it turns out to be more effective and often cheaper. This is only my experience, but the healthcare for simple things here is dramatically worse than it was back home. This would probably be different if I were getting treatment for something serious, and it could just be my university's healthcare.
if u r someone working on wall st with the good healthcare coverage provided then you are going to get healthcare that is just as good or better then anyone else globally.
Good post.
Moving abroad was the best decision I ever made. The book that best explains why is "Legionnaire" by Andy Murray, whilst it sounds unrelated, I think it's a must read unless you are dead set on the WSO monkey track and intend to absolutely make partner at KKR after GS and HBS MBA with no other options.
The main takeaway for me was accelerated maturity. By exposing yourself to a different, sometimes hostile environment, you will make yourself smarter, faster and more resilient; you'll also learn to abstract behavior from culture which will give you an edge back home. Another thing I noticed is that expats tend, depending on the country, to get considerably more responsibility in places with a shortage of trained talent, especially in Asia. This means a steeper learning curve and a chance to prove yourself without 15 identical monkeys sniping you and gunning for the same job. Lastly, there's more money abroad, for a similar reason; at the very least your PPP adjusted quality of life should at least double.
This being said, I'm now outsourcing work TO the US, and am so comfortable in Singapore that I wouldn't move back to a Western country even for twice the money (and more has been offered). I look at what my - PhD-holding, highly technical - contractors are living on and the costs they have to bear, and I'm not optimistic about the quality of life of young middle class professionals in America.
Special thanks for your no. 2. Moving will screw with your relationships and in most cases I've seen ends up in a break, especially if a white male from Europe or the US moves to a nation where he is considered the most desirable race. After the 15th woman the girlfriend back home usually finds out (in one case, the 15th woman called her to make sure her path would be clear). Most of the world's countries are not gender balanced like the US (I'll keep quiet as to my theories for the US); it's much tougher and more competitive for women to secure a worthwhile mate and your value goes up accordingly. Taking your example of Brazil, when I worked in consulting, the non-Brazilians coming back from Rio were usually married to a Sandrinha or Margarita.
Finally, I would really recommend experiencing a true third world country (e.g. India) as well as "mild" third world (Thailand, Brazil) and foreign first world (Singapore, Japan). As a productive member of society, not "help the starving villagers" bum.
I didn't joke about meeting mine too early. I meant it.
Thanks for this post, it's very useful to me!
May I ask- are you in Sao Paulo, Rio, or a smaller city in the South? I have some specific questions about how you made the move down there and how it's going for you. I have been pondering moving to Brazil from NYC for a few years now. I am a dual citizen of US (New Yorker) and Brazil. I just came back from a usual visit to Rio to see family and I can relate to the points made by OneManWolfPack on his 6 main points. I'm a single guy in my mid-20's with no responsibilities. The biggest concern for me is that I speak Portuguese pretty well and can get around easily, but there's no way I can do a presentation or explain accounting terms in Portuguese like I can in English. How necessary is that in the finance world to speak fluent business Portuguese? I'm mainly interested in finance-related jobs such as PE and HF. Thanks.
I'm in Sao Paulo..PM for any specific questions
As for the fluency in Portuguese, it's an absolute must to conduct business here. While there may be some exceptions across the board (I know of one bank here whose employees are instructed to communicate in English at all times) a large chunk of your clients will not speak English, so Portuguese is essential. While I may have a pass as a temporary, clearly Gringo employee, your expectations may be different if you move here permanently and "look" Brazilian.
I am actually doing the opposite. I am from Asia, working in the USA (Strategy, F500) and plotting my way back to (hopefully) an expat package to HK/Beijing/Tokyo (I am not from any of those places) once the H1B expires. The amount of money I can save if I do that should be huge, especially if I can get HK with housing covered.
Beijing sucks*. Seriously. There's something really annoying about everything being slightly sub-standard in quality. Same applies for Shanghai. I think many people have a romantic view of China that's untainted by reality, but a few days in the smog and trying to convince a taxi driver to go straight to where you want instead of via a 3x longer route should fix that.
*compared to Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo or Sydney. Relatively to those cities only.
Oh I am ethnic Chinese and speak decent Chinese (no business Chinese knowledge, although I am led to believe by others that I can pick that up pretty quickly once actually in China itself). I mention those two cities because a lot of opportunities seem to stem from those two places and I don't think I will give it up just because of the smog.
Nice, good points. +1. By any chance do you do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?
My dad works in Beijing now, and here are some takeaways that may nor may not be relevant for you all.
1) Make sure you negotiate your HR benefits (travel home, housing, etc.) clearly with your home country's HR department. Get them to confirm with the foreign country's HR that you will receive all your benefits. The way HR in the US and the way HR in China operates are like night and day. In the US, HR is very trusting of employees and any punishment requires HR to find wrongdoing. In China, HR distrusts employees and requires boatloads of tedious, time consuming documentation to get benefits.
2) In addition to obvious HR issues (see above) that you can negotiate beforehand, consider HR issues that will develop once you start work and do not have the support of your home country's HR department. This includes Visa renewals, holiday bonuses, subsidized/free lunches, reimbursable expenses/credits (business clothing interestingly enough at my dad's company), etc. The HR department refused to give my dad these benefits because 'he is not Chinese'. While one may think these are supplementary benefits that were not discussed in the original work contract, if HR constantly avoids contributing these benefits, they will try to avoid contributing more and more benefits. It's best if you can prevent these issues before the small things escalate to larger issues.
3) Consider the limitations of transaction your foreign currency into other currencies. My dad supports my mother and brothers in the US. Moving Chinese RMB to USD is extremely difficult, and there are a lot of fees/work required. If you need to transfer your wages consistently, look into the logistics.
Great points, though I think some of them would apply the other way around for people from Brazil who go to the US or the UK. That's my impression as a Brazilian, at least.
Onemanwolfpack, what do you think about setting something up here in São Paulo for members to get to know each other? PM me if you like the idea.
+1 SB. Great post!
You touched on the topic a bit, but if you don't mind me asking, what has the experience been like for your wife? How did she feel about it beforehand? Has she been able to find a group of friends or is she lonely?
I'm seriously considering going abroad but a big question is how the experience would be for my wife. She loves the idea of travel and adventure but I worry about the "adventure" novelty wearing off quickly and her being lonely.
My wife was lucky enough to find full-time employment about 4 months into our stay here, which has saved our experience. She started out teaching English (a common option for foreigners in non-English companies) which we quickly learned would not be sustainable for a few years. It's definitely been tough at times, as she has had to put her career on hold. The adventure novelty does wear off quickly, as you said, so before you make a decision, I'd make sure you two are of the right mindset who can handle adjustment for a few years while you pursue a cool opportunity.
LOL @ the US having the best infrastructure, public transit or health care in the world but the rest is on point.
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