Advice for College Senior w/ No Internship Experience
Hello! I'm a rising senior and wish to break into front office finance opportunities yet I unfortunately have little relevant experience.
Backstory:
Initially I went to college with the intent of pursuing medicine, then flipped to economics toward the end of sophomore year. (I didn't like the idea of being broke until 35 with $400K+ in debt @ 7% interest, and was increasing becoming lukewarm on the career.) However, I didn't have a clear idea of what I wanted to do in life yet after this change of heart.
It wasn't until the latter part of my junior year that I became familiar with the full range of opportunities available in the finance industry. However, by that point, summer recruiting was already past. It wasn't until this summer that I began networking and looking to break into the industry. Now, in the process of looking for jobs, I have no front office finance work on my resume.
I have, however, been trading since before college, done a significant amount of freelance work and skills-based volunteering regarding forex, options, and binary options trading. I also have my own business I founded (i.e., web-based e-business) geared toward finance and data analytics.
However, I feel entirely unqualified for entry-level positions given my resume doesn't fit the mold with absolutely zero experience. I know some finance guys who have had successful careers without internships, but they were hired in a less competitive era and many had ample connections in the first place.
My resume shows I have various applicable technical skills (financial modeling, statistical analysis, etc.), but without the work experience. Hence I would be considered a "high-risk" hire.
What would be the best option in your estimation?
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Hyper-apply to various first-year analyst positions (throw enough mud at the wall and hope that something sticks)
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Try to break in through mid/back office work (I'm also willing to go all the way down the prestige ladder to private wealth management if need be)
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Consider internships off the bat and eventually have this lead into a full-time analyst position (don't know if they would go for this, given I will be graduated by next summer)
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Other
Also, I really, really don't want to go the MBA/furthering education route. While this would buy me more time to satisfy the internship checkmark, I would be getting older, drive myself further in debt, and would maybe break in by the time I should already be at the associate level.
Summary:
- Rising college senior
- Became interested in front office finance jobs junior year
- No internships
- Seeking advice
I'd be very grateful for anybody's insight. Thanks!
what city are you in?
I'm currently in Los Angeles.
Not too familiar with the boutique culture in LA, but, you should try to network/land an internship (unpaid/paid doesnt matter) at a boutique during the semester, just to boost your resume. These shops tend to be very responsive to young guys who show a lot of passion/interest. I am in NY and have seen my buddies go this route.
Thanks for the advice. I have considered fall internships to a small extent even if it's not ideal. But it would be tough to balance with academics, athletics, applying to jobs, and running my business at the same time. I'm also at the eastern outskirts of the greater metropolitan area, so commuting into LA regularly would be almost impossible.
I've had friends who've done internships during the school year without actually needing to physically be there and saves a ton of time accordingly (for lower prestige finance positions). But from what I understand it's just basically telecommuting grunt work. As a result I essentially feel like my resume won't change between now and when I graduate aside from the responsibilities added and results derived from my current engagements.
Rising Senior; no internship; need HELP! (Originally Posted: 07/15/2014)
Here's the deal: I'll be a senior in college in the Fall. I go to a non-target in the Southeast, but a handful of alumni work on Wall Street and several others in other areas. I wasn't able to land an internship this Summer, but I've worked every Summer; usually menial manual labor jobs. I have a 3.0 gpa in Econ, which I know will be a big red flag in addition to my lack of experience. I honestly don't even know where to start. I'm interested in finance, possibly I-banking, but don't really know where to go from there. Mostly I'm just looking for some direction or even any help at all. My family is poor and miserable and I know I don't want to end up like that, bottom line. Mostly I'd like to know what you guys would do in my situation. I know I've left out a lot of details, but trying to keep this short.
Do you go to a target?
I attend one of the top liberal arts schools in the country. It was ranked #2 on Forbes' Top Colleges list (whatever that's worth). It's a target for consulting and a few other industries, but not IB and its immediate offshoots.
Post a resume if you want help. You gave us almost no details to work with
You can't be that interested in it with a 3.0 gpa
More details:
I've worked every summer since 2011 as a: deckhand at a port freight handler at a logistics company mover for a moving company
I'm not in any clubs (joining real estate club and finance club this year though)
I actually got my gpa wrong. I checked my transcript online and actually have a 3.15, not that that will help much. I'm an Economics major; my major gpa is a 3.5. My overall gpa is so low because I got CS in a bunch of core classes. I have access to the "Breaking Into Wall Street" lessons I've taken all the basic business courses (accounting, management, management information systems, etc.) in addition to a bunch of upper level econ courses. I'll graduate next May
I'm also interested in real estate.
I play recreational baseball, not affiliated with my school. I also workout a lot and run every day. Very athletic. Don't know if that will do anything for me though.
And yes, I know my gpa sucks. I was extremely lazy and the only thing I can do now is aim for a 4.0 for this next year. Hope this helps some.
Odds of making it to wall street in your situation are pretty much zero. Your best bet is to review these forums on how to network and use said advice toward a different path outside of wall street. Non-target is a non-starter and low GPA is a non-starter even at a target and lack of any internships heading into senior year recruiting isn't good.
Just my opinion. I think it would be a waste of time to pursue wall street given the details you've told us. And if your family is "poor and miserable", I don't know if you had them pay for your school but why haven't you been taking school even remotely serious? Anything below a 3.5 pretty much means you were taking 3-4 engineering classes at the same time (overextending yourself) or you didn't try.
Not without hope but need to re-focus your energy imo
ArcherVice, thanks for your honesty. Yes, I played around in school. I took out loans to pay for it. Since Wall Street is basically a no-go do you have any other suggestions? What should I do over the next couple years to become competitive? I know I have no chance now, but I'd at least like to improve as much as I can and at least try.
While I agree with ArcherVice I don't think not being on Wall Street is the end of the world. You can still make a decent living in a back office role or corporate finance or something. You'll never be rich beyond measure, but if you do your work well I don't think six figures by early to mid 30's is out of reach.
I don't know what you are supposed to do with an Econ degree from a non-target. Typically Econ makes sense since many top schools don't have business undergrad programs. But when they do, accounting, BBA or finance makes sense.
As it stands both your major and GPA are uncompetitive for trying to get a commission in the military. If you have 24hrs of accounting you may be able to land a government job. The glaring problem with that is it can take almost a year from submitting your application until you're selected. Which you may not be, given your major and GPA.
I don't know anything about corporate finance careers.
Richmondkey, can you elaborate on corporate finance? I go to school near Atlanta, so that's probably where I'll end up. What would be some options in corporate finance?
Ok, thanks for your help ArcherVice. I'll start applying to jobs around September. I obviously have a lot of work to do.
Go for consulting....it's all bs there anyways
Not a bad idea man...
Your chance of never being rich is a load of crap. Granted your chances of being on wallstreet is low, that is not the only way to hit it big. Agriculture and energy are the hot industries right now to enter. Wallstreet is not the only way to go man. Keep your chin up
Yeah, I didn't believe that for a minute. I've been hearing that for years. Thanks a lot for the positive comment man. I really appreciate it.
I don't want to mislead you, but I wouldn't write off Wall Street entirely like some of these other cats are trying to persuade you to do. The odds are against you but it's possible-- maybe not this go-around/next year-- but it is indeed possible if you dedicate your life to it, perhaps post-MBA if necessary. Unfortunately, you are going to confront dorks with the same attitude that is reflected in this thread quite often. However, not everyone is like that.
I have a moderately similar background to you and you actually remind me of someone I know from undergrad, so feel free to PM me if I can help in any way.
Thanks man. Right now I just want to concentrate on getting a 4.0 this Fall. Then I'll go from there and start applying for jobs over Winter break. I've already bought my books for Fall to get a head start. I'll update the thread in December when I get my Fall grades. I might take you up on that PM soon. Again, thanks for the help.
Honestly just network like crazy...I graduated with a 3.4 from a non-target...did supply chain work for a year out of college (my degree is in finance and the economy was still bad at the time) them moved over to consulting for 2 years and then broke into IB...just network and kill the interviews
Thanks man. We have a mentor program at school, so I'll sign up for that and hopefully that helps some with networking. As far as GPA goes, if I can pull a 4.0 this next year I should end up around a 3.3-3.4.
Just a quick update: Classes started up about 3 weeks ago. So far I haven't made a grade below 100; been busting my ass. I have one question and would really appreciate if someone could help me out. I've been looking into careers in real estate and came across commercial brokerage. I'm having a hard time finding any information on getting started in that field though, so if anyone can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it. I'll update again as the semester goes on.
Senior in college with no formal finance experience (Originally Posted: 09/12/2015)
I've known that this site exists, and that it would be a valuable resource for me, but was just too lazy to get in and start accumulating knowledge. I think my main hesitation was that I have no chance of going into investment banking given my school (rank ~50 state school). That being said, I have a few things going for me:
-Math and Econ student with a 3.8 gpa. I've taken a lot of econometrics and statistics courses (with one graduate level stat course)
-I Did a quantitative competition last summer conducted by WorldQuant, and I placed in the top 20 of 500 with several strategies that generated 2.0+ sharpe ratio. They offered me a part time job where I develop strategies for them whenever I have time, and get paid a small stipend. They offered it to 50 people so it's not that exclusive.
-I borrowed $50k from my parents' retirement to invest in biotech companies starting around last September. I bought a combination of options and equities (but not at all diversified). I mostly did a lot of research and came to conclusions using whatever information I could get (like using Google Trends for ex.) Anyway, my portfolio has gone from $60k (10k of my own money) to $190k at the moment. I am not sure if that even sends a positive signal. The only way to generate those kinds of returns is to take on stupid levels of risk.
-Some research experience, and I won a few other competitive activities (like mathematical modeling competition at my school which is decent in quantitative subjects). Nothing here is totally relevant to the kinds of things hedge funds look for. I did not have an internship this summer so that might hurt me.
I am absolutely addicted to doing the research, listening to the bearish case and bullish case and placing bets on this. I like to prove that the bulls are wrong or the bears are wrong by making money off of them. I can't really see myself doing any other job. If I don't break in, I'm considering just living off of my portfolio and continuing the investments.
If anybody has any ideas on how to talk about my experiences and how to get started in breaking into this field, I'd appreciate it. Should I take the GMAT and report that score? (I took the BAT and got 99th percentile, but I hear it's not important). Should I just aim to get into a good business school? Should I aim for an internship or a full time offer?
Seems like you are more interested in mathematical modeling than in corporate finance. I'm guessing you want to be more so a trader or quantitative researcher than to do M&A?
Your stats are pretty good and your extracurriculars are interesting. I'd build a compelling story and start networking/applying to banks and prop shops. Worse comes to worse just apply to a quality MFE program and try to break in that way.
Did you get your MBA from UofPhoenix?
I don't think I'm all that interested in investment banking or corporate finance. I don't know what all the terminology means here, but I believe I'm interested in prop shops and quantitative trading opportunities. I'd also like to do comprehensive research reports on specific companies and/or industries and give recommendations based on that. I think you call them buy-side or sell-side analysts.
Haha nope, no MBA for me yet.
I work as a sell-side associate right now. I can tell you that the ratings are based off of financial analysis, so more so financial statements and accounting. Not sure if you'd find this work interesting.
I don't know much about quant research but from the few people that I have spoken with, they had PHDs in Math or Physics. Its seems like a career that requires significant investment on your part.
I think its trading that you are interested in. It certainly sounds like that's what you have been doing with your parents retirement money. I know that IBD S&T (sales and trading) is quite competitive to get into, don't know if you have your sights set on this.
Prop trading, from my knowledge, is easier to break into and I heard they look favorably on practical experience. Was there any sort of strategy behind your trades at all or where you simply speculating on FDA trials? This could be a good selling point for you. Anyways, start networking and maybe try your career resource center. Top 50 state school, I'm guessing that's like UT Austin, UIUC, Madison, UC Davis? There could definitely be some recruiting from your school.
Graduated senior, no finance experience, please help! (Originally Posted: 06/15/2010)
Hey WSO,
So I've taken lots of finance coursework but all of my work experience is in lab work in Psychology. I even left some off so it wouldn't become trite. Advice for "bankifying" the resume? It seems a bit empty but that is because I removed yet another research position to avoid seeming repetitive.
http://www.razume.com/documents/15315
Thanks for your advice!
you should work on the job descriptions, they are really short you need more detail. really flush them out so it doesn't look like you're leaving a lot of weird gaps all over the place.
also your resume screams psychology so if you have some business or finance experiences put more of them on.
also yalie, really isn't a point to blacking things out if you let all the information spill out in your profile
yep, work on resume description. Add more depth and color into what you did. Build a story why you want to go into finance
you go to a target so there's always hope though your GPA isnt exactly high for a "soft major". That would be my only concern as well as the experience you have. Not that interesting...did you publish major breakthroughs...etc.
I don't go to yale so I guess blacking things out worked :)
How do I build depth and color without overly using jargon? The usual advice is to quantify the achievements, but when its a paper, you can't really say "raised $100,000 in readership in some journal." And I can't really talk about breakthroughs without going into detail about the studies, which I'm guessing will make bankers throw my resume out.
Might I ask, what makes you want to work in finance, and when did you make this decision? I see the Finance certificate, but all your experience is in psych. Just curious about what has turned you toward banking.
Definitely work on the descriptions. Follow this format: Summary > relate various duties to Finance (e.g. Led, managed, orgaised, compiled > put your results.
Try to quantify results and descriptions as much as you can.
olafenizer: To be honest, I decided I wanted to work in finance my junior year, but I really half-assed the SA internship process during OCR. I didn't know what networking was at the time, applied to only 5 places (some of which were really specialized like D.E. Shaw), didn't really follow up, etc. I had no idea what I was doing and I had no one to tell me to approach it differently, so when SA internships didn't pan out, I just got onto a lab and did more psych work.
In interviews, I always get the "why finance now?" question since my resume is all psych. I can't really answer that with "well I tried finance on a whim and failed, so now I'm back for round 2." Instead I have to make up a lie, but to be honest the real answer makes me look like an imbecile.
I've made some changes to the resume, take a look:
http://www.razume.com/documents/15422
If you want a good lie (might even be true for you, I have no idea) that may get some intrigue is talking about how you were interested in neuromarketing (hence the psych and finance combo) and the exposure to the sector got you interested in finance as a whole. A friend of mine did this and got the interest of the people interviewing him. He turned down multiple BBs this fall for 'something better' in his opinion. Spinning what you studied + scores + NETWORKING will go a long way for you be okay, especially for a boutique or F500.
I had a very atypical major/focus (much moreso than psych+finance) when interviewing at trading shops and I reconciled it every time quite succinctly by referencing the fact that a very well known director/founder of one of the top algo trading shops had a degree in the same major as I did at the same school I went to (a household name firm and trader for people in the particular firms I was interviewed by).
Any advice for how to bankify the resume further?
Bump
Advice - Senior, graduating in Dec, still no internship (Originally Posted: 05/02/2008)
I would like to hear what you all would suggest as the best course of action given my current situation. I am a senior at a strong school (Goizueta at Emory) with a cumulative 3.52 GPA (Finance 3.85), an ACT score of 33 (not sure if it's even relevant anymore), and the distinction of being here under full merit scholarship, but I have not had any internships in the past. I've been working in a part-time job as a sales rep for HP since freshman year but never applied to any internships until this spring because it was financially impossible for me to have to move away, deal with housing issues, and be forced to potentially lose my part-time job, which I still need in order to help out my family.
I plan to graduate in December of this year and finally realized that internships are essentially necessary to get a good job in finance, so I applied to practically every internship available in investment banking and really everything else in finance. I got to a couple of final round interviews but never received any offers. The feedback seemed generally to be that I didn't have enough experience, though I suspect the fact that I had no interviewing experience didn't help me.
Now it's May and I have nothing for this summer. I'm in Atlanta, which obviously has fewer opportunities than somewhere like NYC, so I'm having trouble finding anything whatsoever, and I really know noone in finance whatsoever. Essentially, here is my question: have I effectively lost any chance of getting into investment banking or even other positions at good firms (also strongly interested in hedge funds after an applied investment management course this semester) because of this? If so, or even if not, do open internship positions still exist this late into the year?
Thanks for any insight you might have.
I'll try to offer some advice, but I am by no means an expert as I am pretty new to all this too. What I would do is still look for something this summer, check out an message boards or job posting sites and see if anyone has last minute positions...(I just got my SA completely last minute). Even if it is unpaid, take it if you can. Since you are graduating in December, try to find an internship for after graduation. Don't limit yourself to the US, as it may be difficult to get internships in the US for December/January. However, many European countries (Germany, Switzerland, maybe the UK) have off-cycle internships, so apply for that. There are also 6 month internships in Europe, check efinancialcarrers. Then you can put on your applications in the fall that you are going to have an internship in the spring, which may work to boost your resume. Alternatively, apply for a SA position in Australia. Our winter is their summer and SA programs typically run December/January there. There may be some work permit issues, but it is worth a try I guess. As long as you are flexible in location, I think you should be able to get something! Good luck!
I'm not sure that you would be elligable for internships starting January considering you're graduating in December. Best thing you can do now is try to get something, anything, this summer. Too late for BB but try the boutiques or corp. fin with some F500s, you never know and they may be open to some free help (or paid?). That way when you come back in the fall you will have at least something to talk about experience related for FT recruiting. Without something this summer, getting interviews in the fall may prove very difficult this year. Let that be your motivation. Just make some cold calls and e-mails and keep pursuing. It's only too late when you give up. Try to be as flexible as possible though.
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