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My advice about this is usually the same and it doesn't differ here because of the situation: renegging is one of the worst things you can do. Finance is an extremely small world and unless it is a huge opportunity, you should not do it. You never know who knows who. Plus, a BB is great and this doesn't sound like a terrible role. Renegging should be saved for not doing a PWM internship in a small town for an IBD role or something similar, not this! Good luck, I know it is tough.
yea i know what you mean, i'm just worried about how transferrable the skillsets really are.
the group is very similar to goldman's bank debt portfolio group if that helps.
This is not a complicated question, just a decision that needs to be made. Look at it as a bilateral option.
1) You stick it out at the BB and hope you get into IBD. If not, you are probably in trouble. But, you do have connections and relationships there, so even if you are unable to move into IBD during the recruiting season, maybe your contacts could get you in touch with another BB IBD?
2) You take the solid MM IB experience and target all of the other BBs next year. You burn the bridges with the current contacts most likely, but it's less risk IMO and more relevant experience.
It depends on your relationship with the people at the BB. If they aren't real close (i.e. just networked), I personally would go MM IB, since the BB is unlikely to be able to squeeze you in next year (think about the retention from interns, then recruiting and other lateral moves you are competing against for a relatively small number of openings).
"I think renegging has got one G in it. Unless you're African-American; then you can get away with using the n-word."
Ok, enough trolling.
Define support role. We talking back back office IT or accounting? We talking risk management? We talking analytics or index sales?
Let me tell you two stories:
1.) Someone got an offer to work at a major pharma company as a summer intern. Two months later, he got an internship in analytics at a bank. He reneged on the pharma firm. Didn't hurt his career. But he was haunted by guilt for years and felt that having to live in NYC was God's punishment on him for reneging on the pharma offer.
2.) Someone got an offer from IBD at a BB after accepting an analytics offer. He kept the analytics offer. Didn't want it to hurt his career- it probably would have. Enough people migrate between analytics and the front office for it to be a serious problem years later.
Three other thoughts, in case this applies to you:
-It used to be fairly difficult to get into IBD or S&T from IT. I have a feeling that that is starting to change. The startup boom is going full-swing right now and most of the competent business-oriented programmers aren't going into finance. In other words, there's a lot less competition to get in than there was a few years ago.
-Talk to Mom and Dad. They know your values better than we do. This is a decision that says something about your values.
-You can get away with reneging on WBEZ FM's engineering department to join Goldman S&T- that's pretty understandable (in fact it would almost be ridiculous not to). You can't get away with reneging on Citi Operations to go to Goldman S&T- or RW Baird quite as easily.
Also, I'd take off the firm you're working for on the post. Don't want to tip off your new potential employers either.
lol. thought you said enough trolling.
that said, I wouldn't live in NYC long term either.
i appreciate the responses guys.
IP: the support role at the BB is similar to the goldman BDGP group in other words they manage leveraged loans on the firm's balance sheet and look at opportunity costs of lending to various clients. prior to the crisis it was a risk group, now it's housed under IBD.
IBD is outside my area of expertise, but if you hadn't already accepted at the BB I'd struggle to decide between IBD MM and this group at a BB. Many of these "basically FO but slightly debatable" groups, if they don't offer quite the same career as FO, offer a much better work-life balance.
Given my understanding of the situation, I say take the BB. Too much downside and too little upside here. The upside isn't Blackstone or KKR and the downside is getting permanently locked out of a major bank and pissing off several people who will most likely rotate through IBD at one point in their lives.
You may even decide you're happier in this group after two years than you could ever be in generic IBD.
get super-stoned before the drug test and problem solved
serious question: would this work? could the MM ibd firm find out about the drug test results or is that very unlikely?
Fairly unlikely but they like to conduct these fairly soon after the offer has been made, so the option value in this strategy is fairly small.
lol I guess that works, but most banks have probably already conducted their drug tests.
very simple decision... do you want IB?
i know its ibd vs. non ibd i guess the only thing throwing me off is that the BB function is housed under IBD...
would anyone give me the credit that I work in IB by the description i laid out or is it completely not FO
I'm actually unsure of Whiskey's point.
1.) You say you want IBD, but really, that only means you think you want IBD.
2.) IBD is miserable. Take it for someone who's worked for a bank. I would rather join the US Marine Corps- or go live under a bridge- than spend two years working on M&A or IPOs. Strats IBD? Loan servicing? Ok, I could do that.
3.) What are your long-term goals? B-school? Working for a PE shop? Working for a hedge fund? HF is definitely possible for anybody who works anywhere in the front office in banking. PE also takes consultants in addition to bankers.
I'm not a PE guy or a banker. In the absence of more knowledgeable people, however, I could maybe see you in a niche role on the PE side with a few years of experience in the group you'll be hired into. You'd probably be looking for better ways to leverage takeover candidates' balance sheets and issue debt against them.
Again, a quant from S&T offering advice on how to get into PE is little better than a music promoter at Warner Records offering advice on how to get into Julliard. I'm only giving my ever so slightly educated guess because nobody from IBD or PE has shown up to help yet.
I was asking if OP wanted the traditional IB vs the GS gig since they are vastly different roles that provide different skill sets.
You also provided some interesting perspectives... I would have to say that almost all vets will tell you they'd rather spend 90 hours/wk in the office than the sand dodging mortars
But again, I don't have IBD experience. If you do have a little IBD experience (IE more than six months FT), your advice is probably a lot better than mine.
I would also point out here that there's intrinsic ethical value in taking the offer with the BB- that ultimately becomes a little more extrinsic than we would think. I'm not going to argue that this is a huge deal, but it matters.
Four or five years in, a voice at 2 or 3AM will start asking you how you've contributed to society- how you've made the world a better place or at least helped keep the machinery of civilization running. Being able to say "I always honor my commitments" gets that voice to shut up faster and leave your tired body in peace. (Also, buying sandwiches for bums and panhandlers and volunteering can help).
Of course, if you're working in banking in four or five years, you can just turn on the Rolling Stones at 3AM and get back to working on the pitchbook. :D
Also, if the MD has broached the subject of a lateral, you can keep that in play and hold him to that in 12, more like 18 months.
This is a tough decision, and I don't want my view to be your only data point, but I see too much good in the current BB IBD* (asterisk intentional) offer to turn it down for MM IBD.
yea i mean the lateral is a huge part of the BB potential i just don't want to leave my career in someone else's hands and i know i dont want to stay in this group. so that means its either lateral within the BB or transfer to another bank's ibd. tough call
also ethics aren't a huge deal as i really think of banks as profit maximizing institutions which won't hesitate to drop me in a second so i won't lose sleep over it
Is it as bad if you reneg on a "verbally" accepted offer? When are you supposed to sign?
I've got a little under two weeks to get the paper work back to them
Obviously not - signing the formal offer letter and then reneging is definitely worse.
Renegging isn't a big deal if it's an understandable move and you have rationale for it.
If you really want IBD, I suggest you get in there as quickly as possible, especially given the situation you're in now.
Regardless, you're in a great spot. The only downside is burning bridges, but any firm would drop you if they needed to. Ask yourself what you want. Proceed accordingly.
you are overthinking this - its not so much about reputation and w/e people are saying
just decide whats better for you and do it nothing too personal, its your future life that is in question here
any firm will find ez replacement, especially today
Is it a coverage or product group within the MM firm?
it's pretty much a generalist role where we work on different IBD products across a few industries.
just to let everyone know, i went with the MM IBD. my contact at the BB was very understanding so it made it a lot easier for me. he confirmed that a switch to the group i wanted would be possible but very difficult (number one group at the bank). i'm really happy with the decision thus far hopefully i will be in 2 years. thanks for all the different perspectives guys
Congrats, bro. You made the right choice. Now make sure to go and kill it.
Told ya. He gets it. If you are up front and honest, people are more understanding then some on the board give them credit for.
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