In IB: It's the same as anywhere in the world, with the big BB firms dominating, plus Macquarie (the two majors here are probably UBS and MacBank). The below have a decent presence.

Macquarie UBS JPM Citi DB Goldman Sachs JB Were ABN Amro

CS

Very small in Aust.

MS ML

Notable boutiques: Carnegie Wylie & Co. (Now Lazard CW) Gresham Partners Caliburn Grant Samuel

Smaller, up and coming boutiques: Azure Pottinger

Other categories not represented: Big 4 Corp Fin. ANZ NAB Capital

There are also thousands of smaller operations devoted to floating resource stocks out west. The 4 major banks are trying to get in on the action (Westpac and Commonwealth trailing), but will pull back as soon as the frenzy dies down.

WRT S&T: It's all the usual names, although the major banks have strong treasuries units, especially NAB and Commonwealth.

HF: Because they are unregulated and anyone can buy in, there are practically thousands. Though, they are not the same scale as in the US. If you want that sort of thing, you need to go to Singapore or HK.

 

beaker, im coming to sydney in february to study abroad till july. is it possible to intern there during that time at a bb, mm, or hedgefund even though im from the u.s.?

 
bsdphantom:
beaker, im coming to sydney in february to study abroad till july. is it possible to intern there during that time at a bb, mm, or hedgefund even though im from the u.s.?

It would be difficult. You would have to convince them you are willing to come back to Aust. to work. I can't see them giving you a spot unless you planned to work here long-term.

 

Sydney's the place to be. I don't even know what people do down in Melbourne - in banking, the size of most offices is as big as one of the industry teams in Sydney. Most banks don't even have trading floors in Melbourne because it's so small.

Generally agree with what beaker said. Might add that JPM is coming up fast, really fast.

 
trampledmonkey:
Generally agree with what beaker said. Might add that JPM is coming up fast, really fast.

And Citi is going through a meltdown...

A few of the US BB are really trying to gain a presence in Aust, I guess trying to crack the domination of MacBank and UBS. I know GSJBW is pushing hard, and both ML and MS are looking to increase their units (so I'm told).

 

JPM's content in staying top 3

but essentially the lead held by ubs and macq over other competitors is very hard to bridge unless major rainmakers leave their posts...

in the short term at least

 
trampledmonkey:
GS is suffering this problem atm, with the departure of Keith. But then again if crappy league tables were the guide, the top 3 are pretty inconsistent over the past 5 or 6 years.

League tables in Aust. are definately misleading, due to small sizes. Volatility in deal flow means quarterly rankings are next to useless. The fact of the matter is that there are UBS and MacBank and then a very large gap.

 
trampledmonkey:
Would you rather do your 1st yr in Macq or GS?

I don't believe GS holds the same cachet in Oz as it does in the rest of the world. If you are looking for a BB, the top two options have to be MacBank and UBS.

MacBank also has a more streamlined progression, with the INSEAD program etc.

I've heard the analysts at GSJBW get driven in to the ground...

 

That's interesting. The reason GS is so popular in the US also has to do with prestige (and dealflow is just one determinant).

I'd venture to suggest that Macq does not hold that level of prestige despite usually being regarded as the bank with the strongest dealflows. For this reason, it doesn't seem to command the level of demand you'd expect given it's dominant market position. Many people I've come across, especially university students, seem to be more interested in working at a well-established firm such as GS over Macq.

I believe what I'm saying reflects the views of people I've worked with. More importantly, this was definitely the prevailing view when I was at university. The top students of my year who went into banking probably preferred most banks over Macq.

 

Looking around the forum I've heard that in the US it's virtually impossible to move from operations to front office. Does anyone know if this is the case in Australia? Esp in relation to macq bank.

The reason I think it may be different here is there are very few MM's who actually take graduates, much less interns so other than front office people from other banks, there are few people the operations staff have to compete against who know more about how ib works.

Or would it be easier to work in accounting (Big 4 or the finance division of an ib) and transferring to a front office position after completing your CA?

 
orangejuice:
Looking around the forum I've heard that in the US it's virtually impossible to move from operations to front office. Does anyone know if this is the case in Australia? Esp in relation to macq bank.

The reason I think it may be different here is there are very few MM's who actually take graduates, much less interns so other than front office people from other banks, there are few people the operations staff have to compete against who know more about how ib works.

Or would it be easier to work in accounting (Big 4 or the finance division of an ib) and transferring to a front office position after completing your CA?

Practically impossible. There are so few positions in IB in Aust. Ops people have almost no chance (never say never).

Corporate finance at a Big 4 is a fairly worn path, but even they are fairly selective. There are plenty of smaller shops who take people.

 

There's no way that Macbank is more prestigious than GS(JBW). They take a huge number of analysts and have lacking standards (i.e. Distinction average students in Commerce getting in). Last summer they had 46 interns and extended FT offers to 44 of them!

Also, i'd say that UBS vs GS is pretty close - nearly everybody who took offers at GS this year also had offers at UBS. Sure their analysts work hard, but what does this imply about their bonuses?

 
LongGamma:
There's no way that Macbank is more prestigious than GS(JBW). They take a huge number of analysts and have lacking standards (i.e. Distinction average students in Commerce getting in). Last summer they had 46 interns and extended FT offers to 44 of them!

Also, i'd say that UBS vs GS is pretty close - nearly everybody who took offers at GS this year also had offers at UBS. Sure their analysts work hard, but what does this imply about their bonuses?

People going to GSJBW have stars in their eyes. I would personally put UBS and MacBank on top followed by (in a group) Carnegie Wylie (Lazard), Caliburn and JPM. GSJBW and Citi are currently kidding themselves, playing catch up to the more establish local operations.

One of the reasons why MacBank has such a high intake is that they include a large structuring, equities and leasing business under the IBG umbrella. (Ironically, I have heard that same claim about how many interns converted last year with different numbers from at least 10 people outside of MB.)

 
beaker:
People going to GSJBW have stars in their eyes. I would personally put UBS and MacBank on top followed by (in a group) Carnegie Wylie (Lazard), Caliburn and JPM.

In terms of what? Deal flow? Nobody is contesting that UBS or Macbank have higher deal flow than GS, what i'm referring to is prestige.

So many of the SA's i spoke to from macbank last summer were just plain mediocre. They were immature and really didn't know a lot about banking. The fact that they received full-time offers says a lot about the standards at the bank. Also, it was clear that most of them didn't get offers from GS/UBS.

beaker:
One of the reasons why MacBank has such a high intake is that they include a large structuring, equities and leasing business under the IBG umbrella.

Why would they do that? Equity structuring in IBG? So they have equity structuring in both EMG and IBG?

beaker:
(Ironically, I have heard that same claim about how many interns converted last year with different numbers from at least 10 people outside of MB.)

I'm quite confident with those figures, considering i was discussing it with a group of about 5 Macbank SAs at the end of the summer.

It's pretty obvious that you work there and want to defend it, but you can't get past the fact that their recruiting standards are extremely poor. (and no, i don't work in banking at GS)

 

For the record, I don't work at MacBank. I do, however, currently work at one of the other BB banks.

From the Macquarie website:

The Investment Banking Group is organised into four functional divisions:

-Corporate Finance provides advisory and capital raising services to corporate and government clients involved in public mergers and acquisitions (M&A), private treaty acquisitions and divestments, fund raising and corporate restructuring. In 2006, Macquarie’s M&A team advised on over $A40 billion of successfully completed transactions, achieving the No.1 ranking in Australia according to Thomson Financial. Activities are aligned to industry groups reflecting key areas of expertise in infrastructure, resources, telecommunications, media, entertainment and technology, property, industrials and financial institutions. The Group also manages a range of specialist funds primarily across infrastructure sectors including toll roads, airports, utilities and communications infrastructure. -Financial Products advises on and participates in corporate and project financing transactions where there is a wide range of structuring and accounting issues. The Division uses its technical skills to provide a key competitive advantage in these transactions. -Macquarie Capital (leasing and asset financing) provides finance, leasing, trading, sourcing and remarketing services in industries where it has specialist skills and experience. -Macquarie Securities is an Asia Pacific cash equity business, operating globally with equity research analysts, sales and sales trading staff covering over 850 stocks across the region and servicing international investors.

Go and read the thread about prestige. There's no point rehashing it here.

 

I assume this is what you're referring to when you say structuring?

-Financial Products advises on and participates in corporate and project financing transactions where there is a wide range of structuring and accounting issues. The Division uses its technical skills to provide a key competitive advantage in these transactions.

That's not the type of thing that's usually meant when people talk about structuring. At most banks this function falls into IBD within DCM, ECM or Structured Finance. It's private side work.

This is what structuring is (taken from the EMG section of 'Meet our people'):

"I work in a team that offers 'over the counter' derivative products to our clients, and most of my time is spent in pricing and developing hedging strategies."

or:

"My day on the structuring desk involves anything from developing new pricing models and tools to working through the tax implications of a proposed strategy, analysing derivative payoffs to meet client needs, investigating financial structures, and liaising closely with the sales desk to satisfy client demands."

However it is very strange that they have their Cash Equities business in IBG - i wonder why that is.

 

I agree with LongGamma.

The prestige of a bank includes its international presence and how highly sought out its positions are. The fact that Macq takes so many more people than UBS and is still perceived to have weaker dealflow says a lot.

I also met some of 2006's summer analysts. I would say that the preferred candidates have been taken out by by US and European banks, ahead of Macq. I'm surprised that you'd put Caliburn ahead of GS and DB. Even Carnegie and JPM are debatable - it seems to me you've just flicked through this year's league tables or something to make that judgment. Also from what I know, DB does not have a small outpost in Sydney and while you might be right about CS, they were in fact a dominant player years ago.

 

Macq: Young bank, probably lacking the sophistication and "white-shoeness" of their international counterparts but always willing to have a go and upset the establishment. Not afraid to take risks and fail unlike some of the other banks where everyone just wants to toe the line. Analysts don't work as hard due to high headcount which is part of their model.

UBS: Does most of the sell-side advisory roles because Macq seems to be always advising the buy-side. Great for senior people in terms of guaranteed fee (mostly, Qantas not withstanding) but crappy for analysts. Up there at the top.

Citi: I heard it is going down with the whole Melbourne office being poached by a rival. Analysts are worked like mad as well.

GSJBW: Are they asleep? Where were they on the biggest deals this year? First 2 letters of name can't hurt though overseas

Lazard CW: Pretty good shop I reckon but only because of John Wylie. Would be great if you could work under him in the Melbourne office but am not sure how accessible he is. Up there doing the top profile deals this year Coles, Alina, Qantas and did Toll/Patrick last year. If John Wylie leaves, am not sure how it'll play out. Don't think the Lazard name could hurt if wanting to go overseas.

JPM: Apparently on the rise. Analysts are worked hard but good exit opps to PE.

CS: Not sure what's happening with them. Don't seem to be around much lately

DB: What kind of bank are they when they let an ex employee advise Coles on their behalf? Most bizarre. Some sounds of HR stuff-up whilst recruiting last year - had their superday on the same day as JPM's and couldn't fill their analyst intake. Ended up calling people whom they had rejected offering the positions. Culture is not vv good in there as well

Caliburn: Can't comment. Just know they advised Woolworths in relation to a potential acquisition as part of the Coles transaction

MS: Small. Took in only 2 analysts this year...

 

So much misleading information.

GSJBW and Citi did very well in 2005 and 2006. Two slightly weaker quaters and we're saying they're playing catch up? JPM just shot up very recently, having invested heavily in their offices. That's catch up.

UBS is not crappy for analysts. It is probably the best choice. What do you have in mind over UBS?

I wouldn't judge DB based on the fact they consulted an ex-employee. Big deal, really. As long as the deal goes through they'll get lots of money for completing the biggest transaction.

 
trampledmonkey:
So much misleading information.

GSJBW and Citi did very well in 2005 and 2006. Two slightly weaker quaters and we're saying they're playing catch up? JPM just shot up very recently, having invested heavily in their offices. That's catch up.

UBS is not crappy for analysts. It is probably the best choice. What do you have in mind over UBS?

I wouldn't judge DB based on the fact they consulted an ex-employee. Big deal, really. As long as the deal goes through they'll get lots of money for completing the biggest transaction.

Everyone did very well in 2005 & 2006. If you didn't, you should think of giving the game up.

 
trampledmonkey:
So much misleading information.

GSJBW and Citi did very well in 2005 and 2006. Two slightly weaker quaters and we're saying they're playing catch up? JPM just shot up very recently, having invested heavily in their offices. That's catch up.

UBS is not crappy for analysts. It is probably the best choice. What do you have in mind over UBS?

I wouldn't judge DB based on the fact they consulted an ex-employee. Big deal, really. As long as the deal goes through they'll get lots of money for completing the biggest transaction.

to clarify - UBS is a top shop. Just that in my opinion doing sell-side advisory can be pretty crappy as an analyst. Manning the data room and answering qns! But i agree that they are up there in Oz.

DB: Their HR is a joke... and culture in there is crappy... Granted pay is better than most banks in first year but do you want to work there? What have they done?

my top choices in Oz would be Macq, UBS, GSJBW (just because of the first 2 letters), JPM and Lazard CW in the melb office...

 

To beaker or anyone else with some experience in the Australian banking scene: have you seen many New York analysts transfer/lateral into BB Australian spots after 2-3 years? Are they (or would they be) well received? Does the move present any unusual problems (lack of network, mild racism, etc.)?

Here is some data to add to the discussion. Not the biggest fan of league tables, but at least the commentary on fees is solid.

From Thomson Q3 YTD M&A Report-

UBS # 1 in Australia, Australian M&A Fees Total US$1.6 billion UBS advised on three of the top five deals to top the announced Australian rankings with 31 deals worth US$51.7 billion. Macquarie Bank placed second and Morgan Stanley third with US$37.4 billion and US$34.7 billion in volume, respectively. UBS also topped the completed rankings with US$54.4 billion from 33 transactions.

Imputed fees for Australian M&A totaled US$1.6 billion during the first nine months of 2007, representing a 59.1% increase from the US$1 billion in fees earned last year. UBS collected US$141.3 million in M&A fees, the most in the region, followed by Macquarie Bank and JP Morgan with US$136.6 million and US$98.5

League Tables (Announced, by value, $US billion) Bank __________Value ___ #Deals

  1. UBS................... 51.7 ___ 31
  2. Macquarie........... 37.4 ___38
  3. Morgan Stanley... 34.7 ___ 11
  4. Deutsche............ 34.2 ___ 14
  5. Lazard............. .. 32.0 ___ 11
  6. JP Morgan.......... 27.9 ___ 16
  7. Gresham............ 19.9 ___ 17
  8. Citi.................... 15.5 ___ 19
  9. Goldman............ 12.1 ___ 21 10.Merrill................. 9.9 ___ 9
 

I personally haven't seen many.

The size of the banks in Australia is still relatively small, only having grown in the last 5 or so years. The competition for spots is unusually high and a working knowledge of the Aus. economy is expected. Most transfers from the US either go to HK/Sing. or come in after an MBA at the Associate level and up.

That's not to say it can't be done. If you really want to do it, you would have to really read-up on the Aus. economy and have a good reason why you would want to come here.

 

The market isn't great and a lot of Euro banks are pulling back from the Australian market. Your experience looks good and your marks are fine (Aus-based banks have a more stringent undergrad criteria than other countries).

I think you stand a good chance but be prepared to move domestically to Sydney/Melbourne or internationally if need-be.

 

You should apply to the firm, not the location. Most banks have both a Sydney and a Melbourne office but you should look for the appropriate opportunity irrespective of office location. You should try to match your experience with the appropriate bank.

There is a growing number of people in Sydney and Melbourne banks from West Australia with UWA qualifications - so your alumni network will be useful. My suggestion will be to look at Dealogic at the M&A/DCM/Syndicated loan league tables (you can find this on the Fin Review website). Most of these banks will do large-scale project and infrastructure finance deals and are a good place to start. Finally, many banks are opening up offices in Perth so there could be opportunities out there.

It also comes down to what you want to do: advisory or product focus? The upside is that you'll be able to move around once you are in but if you want a DCM-type focus then the big foreign banks are more appropriate than GS, Lazard, Moelis etc.

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks, they were all immensely useful advice. I'm looking more towards advisory and would like to Melbourne/Sydney because my family is planning to move there and the whole financial centre issue. I will definitely check out Dealogic. I'm trying to stay away from DCM because I haven't had any experience in the area and I don't think it's as interesting as ECM/general M&A. That being said, equity markets aren't exactly in the best place right now so I'd take what I can get. Thanks again HYAddict!

 

There is already the Australian monkey club at http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/group/the-australian-monkey-club But to be honest, I think monkey retention rate on WSO for Australian monkeys is very very low. I have seen many Australian monkeys post on this website once and never ever again. I think it may be more efficient to set up a facebook group instead since nearly everyone I know uses it, plus it will be easier for non-WSO monkeys to join. Just my $0.02.

 

Sounds good, we can do that too. No harm in having one here too though- I started one because I searched for one and the Australian Monkey's group doesn't seem to have much activity (as you said). Thought we could try a fresh one and see if it gets any traction- even as a conversation hub for the few Aussies on here that use WSO regularly.

 

Hi

Pay is similar to USA, maybe only 10% less. Hours are like 14-16 hrs depending on the deal flow. Lifestyle is great, but in banking you give that up.

Many BBs are now adding new hires, so the M&A market here is hot.

I'm on my 12th hour today now, and is going to eat in the office, so it will be a long day. its my frst day.

 

i know macbank has a really tiny office in perth and there are a couple of boutiques around. I am from perth and it is a beautiful city a but Sydney is where you want to be if you want to do ibanking.

 

Just curious what are considered the BB IBs within the Australian market?

Obviously Lehman and Bear Stearns don't have offices down under but how do GS, MS, ML stack up against MacqBank and Babcock? How about traditionally 2nd-tier (at least on Wall Street) banks like DB, UBS, CSFB and Citi?

Also, how do the hours in an Aussie BB IB compare to an equivalent Wall Street or London BB IB?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

might just be a little less...but taxes are VERY HIGH. You are going to be pulling in a lot less after taxes. Gotta love paying for everyone else's education, healthcare, etc.... but then looks like us on wall street here in the states are about to get a nice tax hike.

Unless you are seriously into banking for the "work", I would avoid it at all costs unless you can pull in some good money. OR if you can use the job to get a position later on that you will enjoy AND make good money there

At the end of the day, most people go to work to make money. There's no way in hell I would work on Wall Street for free.

Oh - I was on a bunch of Aussie deals last year and when they came over to meet with us, they told me (while we were out drinking) that they make less money and pay more taxes.

 

Hi, my email is [email protected] please invite me for doostang.

I checked the M&A league charts here. YTD for deals completed 1) UBS 2) Mac Bank 3) Goldman 4) forgot this one 5) Caliburn 6) Carnegie Wylie

I think ML, MS, are all very strong here. UBS definately has the top tier name here. GS is very good also.

DB doesn't have a big IB function here, mostly equities, derivatives trading and debt origination.

 

From what I understand and read somewhere DB has a big ibanking function in australia. I would dare say much bigger than MS and ML. MS is tiny in Sydney and ML doesn't hire graduate analysts...

Citigroup I think has a decent ibanking setup too...

 

From what I know, I would also say that DB has a reputable presence in Australia. 2006 probably wasn't their best year. If the Coles deal had came/comes through, it would've been a different story.

Regarding Citigroup, that blank spot might have been them.

 

JP Morgan is on the up. They have some decent momentum and are starting to pull in some really big deals.

They've been involved in the Rinker deal, the Coles deal, the Alinta saga, Xstrata.

Andrew Pridham seems to be doing a good job with the company.

In terms of division size, Macquarie and UBS are the largest here. GS is relatively large, as well as DB and JPM. Citi is a bit smaller, as is Morgan Stanley. Merrill Lynch is still quite tiny compared to its international operations. Babcock and Brown are really starting to move.

 
geetarjoe:
JP Morgan is on the up. They have some decent momentum and are starting to pull in some really big deals.

They've been involved in the Rinker deal, the Coles deal, the Alinta saga, Xstrata.

Andrew Pridham seems to be doing a good job with the company.

In terms of division size, Macquarie and UBS are the largest here. GS is relatively large, as well as DB and JPM. Citi is a bit smaller, as is Morgan Stanley. Merrill Lynch is still quite tiny compared to its international operations. Babcock and Brown are really starting to move.

Do you know which of the JPM teams are strong in terms of dealflow? I only know they are strong in property. Does Andrew Pridham head the property team?

 

I heard australia was very competitive to get into due to small office sizes ie less jobs available, with most grads having double masters in finance and law, is this correct?

 

GS in Australia is actually GSJBW. GS only own 45% of the equity in the merged entity.

Its extremely competitive, perhaps 6-8 spots per bank, although right now Macquarie is hiring heaps of people. Pretty much all the spots are in Sydney, although GSJBW is technically based in Melbourne.

 

Wow, worst thread ever.

Pay from multinational banks is street rates in USD, converted. Everyone keeps saying GSJBSW is up there. They're dreaming. JPM ha smade big strides, definitely the mover in the pack over the last few years.

Realistically, it's still Mac vs. UBS with everyone else a staggeringly distant third. JPM has the ability to be up there, but I'm not sure about the internal drive. Goldman tried and failed (listen out for all the GSJBW pundits!).

 
charlemenge:
Take the BHP/Rio deal. UBS is certainly not on it. Nor JPM in Australia. But GSJBW (not GS) is.

There's a bit more to that story than meets the eye. There is certainly a good reason why JPM isn't involved (they burnt that bridge), and possibly UBS.

As that story plays out, pretty much every bank will have some role. Remember how T3 played out and who made the money? The government paid very little for advisory or lead underwriters. Who made the money on that deal? Mac pulled out and made a bundle structuring/selling the instalment receipts.

 
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Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

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