Sales and trading exit opportunities/pay/etc. (please help!)

Hey guys,

Just received offers from several BB's for their summer S&T positions and summer IBD positions.

I'm currently in 3rd year university and worked in IBD at a BB last summer as well... Having been in IBD, I've definitely loved and hated some parts of it.

Namely, the hours are awful. Even so, the type of work bankers do is boring and not intellectually stimulating... at ALL. Therefore, I applied to a whole bunch of S&T places hoping for a change.

However, now that I have offers from both sides, I'm extremely nervous about jumping into S&T. I really don't know TOO much about it (because I havent had experience in it). Also, IBD seems like an excellent way to springboard onto PE/anything finance related.

If I entered S&T at a bb, would I be able to jump into banking if I didnt like it? What about PE/hedge funds?

Lastly, who gets higher pay? (I know this is a back and forth topic)

Thanks for all your help.... I really need to make my decisions soon!

 

search the forums for IBD vs S&T threads - there are quite a few.

Since this is still a summer internship I would go for the S&T SA gig. I mean the whole point of internships is to get some experience so that you can decide based on your own experiences.

Either way you already had a summer IDB experience, so getting full time offers shouldn't be too tough for you. You will at least be ahead of the kids who don't have any SA experience.

 

if you want PE afterwards, do IBD now. if you're not sure, try S&T this summer and see. if you're getting offers now, you'll get offers later too. if i were you i wouldn't worry about that aspect of it.

 

with regards to S&T (trading) -> IB and IB -> S&T (trading).... is the switch possible in the future?

I am really torn and am ultimately gunning for a full-time position. I know there's a lot of lateral hiring between banks - but, correct me if i'm wrong, those are between similar divisions (ib for ib, etc.). Would being in S&T hurt my chances of laterally transferring to the firm's (or another firm's IBD)?

Thanks for all your help... this decision has been extremely hard

 

If u think banking is boring, why would u want to do it FT? If you thought ur gf was boring, you wouldnt ask her to marry you. If I were in ur position (and i was in a variation of it), I'd give the S+T a shot. Typically its banking --> PE and Trading --> HF... altho you will see some bankers go to HFs, they tend to be confined in their selection of HFs to certain strategies. You shouldnt be worried about pay - once u pass a certain threshold in salary, you have more money than you know what to do with anyway.

 

well, i considering banking almost like paying my dues...

I wouldnt mind working in it for a few years just to get the "experience" in deal making.

However, are you essentially saying that the average Traders make LESS than their average banking counterparts?

I am really afraid that if S&T doesnt pan out, and that the market suddenly collapses around one product or industry, that I will be SOL.

I definitely see the benefits of going into either industry though... Should I assume that switching back and forth isn't hard?

Another complicating factor is that I might want to switch over to London/Hong Kong in the future... would it be hard to transfer to another product/industry desk or country?

Banking is relatively mundane work, but there are definite benefits!

Tough decisions.

 

if you are good, you will make much more in trading than you will in IB. go for the S&T internship and see if you like it, you can always go IB full time as other posters have said

i worked in IB as an SA and am now in S&T full time at a BB and very glad i made the switch. PM me if you want to discuss further/have other questions.

 

can i ask - how was the switch for you from s&t to PE? thank you!

 

it's a myth. seriously I was disappointed- a few select/lucky traders make alot, but the VAST majority make less than their banking counterparts.

from what I've seen, The median pay for salespeople actually seems to be higher than the median for traders. (the mean for traders is much higher than the mean for sales due to the few superstars though)

anyone see this too? thoughts?

 

i don't know if you could argue hedge funds love S&T folks 'a lot more than' IB folks. i mean, great, you worked as a sales asst for 2 years, woohoo. a lot of major funds are specifically looking for former BANKERS and they are pretty clear about it.

 

It depends on what role they're trying to fill. S&T are good for their sales skills which absolutely necessary for bringing in partners. But the PE's like IB's because they have the valuation skills needed for acquisitions. I'm sure there's more to it as well hopefully someone else can add personal experience.

 

A lesser known alternative is interdealer brokers...

Do a little research on GFI and ICAP...these guys interact with institutional traders (e.g. BBs, HFS) but take no risk and collect commission when they arrange a trade

 

Sales has many exit opps, depending on your desk. HF, PE, corporates, etc. Same with structuring. On the trading side the exit opps are probably slightly more limited. But most people don't ever "exit", they just change banks. Contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of mediocre traders taking up space at all the big banks. Not to mention all the shitty hedge funds out there hiring people up....

 
skins1:
Sales has many exit opps, depending on your desk. HF, PE, corporates, etc. Same with structuring. On the trading side the exit opps are probably slightly more limited. But most people don't ever "exit", they just change banks. Contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of mediocre traders taking up space at all the big banks. Not to mention all the shitty hedge funds out there hiring people up....

I've wondered the same thing as the OP because it doesn't make sense to me that mediocre traders just stay on (or even switch to other positions). At my bank, there are just about as many trading analysts as IBD analysts - lets say there's 80 per year. In IBD, the attrition rate is high because of the nature of the work, so maybe 10% will stay in IBD for more than a few years. This works out well because everyone can't become vp or md; there aren't enough positions. However, in trading, if everyone just keeps moving up, there can't possibly be enough positions at the bank to absorb that many traders, can there? I know many go to hfs, but even taking this into account it would seem that there would be a massive oversupply if most stay in trading.

 
  1. In general IBD has more analysts than S&T

  2. The hierarchy in S&T is much different than IBD. IBD is basically a pyramid - a crapload of analysts -> less associates -> few vps -> an MD. On my desk the analyst:associate:vp ratio is pretty close to 1:1:1

 
PoppingMyCollar:
2. The hierarchy in S&T is much different than IBD. IBD is basically a pyramid - a crapload of analysts -> less associates -> few vps -> an MD. On my desk the analyst:associate:vp ratio is pretty close to 1:1:1

Yep, on my desk there are more VPs than analysts or associates.

 

It's even more basic than that--the headcount in S&T is 2-3 times what the headcount in IBD is. So even if you have the same number of analysts coming into each program you will still end up with far fewer junior people in S&T than in IBD.

And also keep in mind that traders represent less than 1/2 of the trading floor. Sales and structuring put together will outnumber the traders. Different career paths, different exit opps, etc.

 

That's a terrible question. Sales, structuring, and trading are all different career fields, requiring different skills and interests. In addition, pay is pretty much the same in all three. As a result, if you suck in one you will get fired and have absolutely zero shot at moving into one of the others. If you are good at one, however, then it is possible to transition from one to the other, but still difficult.

 

McMo--I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying that it is not common. I know of salespeople who switched to trading, traders who switched to sales, and structurers who have gone on to both. But this idea that traders can "easily" switch into sales is simply not correct. In the old days on cash flow desks that may be the case, but not these days and certainly not on desks that deal primarily with structured products and derivatives. And again, regardless of your job, if you suck, no other function is going to want you. The only way a trader will be able to switch to sales is if they are good traders, but want to make the change for other reasons. Don't forget that traders, sales, and structurers work together on a daily basis, so if you fuck up as a trader the salespeople sure as hell know if and wouldn't even consider offering you a position....

 

Assuming you leave the investment bank then HF, asset managers, Prop firm, inter dealer broker, independent traders.

Seems to be an even mix of all over.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 
wilsonjones:
traders never go to PE, they only go to statistical, macro, jt marlin type hf's or they continue on at the investment bank that first hired them
Considering there have been traders that have gone on to host TV shows and write investment columns (Cramer), to write books (plenty, but Michael Lewis comes to mind), to take professorships in philosophy (Nicolas Nassim Taleb), and even to become Secretary of the Treasury (Bob Rubin), it seems pretty safe to say traders can do more than move to hedge funds or stay with the same firm their entire lives...
 
Best Response

there are a lot of good exit ops for traders, but:

  • Jim Cramer's record wasn't (and isn't) stellar; he's a personality
  • Michael Lewis was in sales
  • Taleb has a PhD in Financial Math - this had more to do with him going into academia than his trading background
  • Bob Rubin had a background in law and did m&a arb at Goldman. he was also very involved with the dems, along with corzine

....I wouldn't say these guys are the best examples of exit ops

and why are there so many people who think that you can go from P/E to trading, vice-versa? maybe we should have a permanent thread that discusses the difference. I can't fathom how so many newbies have no clue

 
yesman:
there are a lot of good exit ops for traders, but:
  • Jim Cramer's record wasn't (and isn't) stellar; he's a personality
  • Michael Lewis was in sales
  • Taleb has a PhD in Financial Math - this had more to do with him going into academia than his trading background
  • Bob Rubin had a background in law and did m&a arb at Goldman. he was also very involved with the dems, along with corzine

....I wouldn't say these guys are the best examples of exit ops

and why are there so many people who think that you can go from P/E to trading, vice-versa? maybe we should have a permanent thread that discusses the difference. I can't fathom how so many newbies have no clue

The point wasn't that I think Jim Cramer is great, it's that he started out as a Goldman trader and now runs a website and hosts a TV show.

And so what if Taleb has a PhD? He was a trader, then he became a writer, philosopher, and teacher. Not an execution trader at a hedge fund...

Rubin describes his position at Goldman as "trader" in his own autobiography. And you seriously think him having a J.D. (he worked in law for like 1 year...) is what qualified him for managing the finances of the richest nation in the world?

Of course these aren't typical examples, but obviously traders can and do go on to many other things than execution trading at hedge funds...(and I'm not saying PE, just that to say they can only be traders for the rest of their lives is a gross exaggeration).

 

Jim Cramer had a pretty good track record at his hedge fund 24% average annual return over an 18 year period (I think). The market ripped his entire career though thus making that return less impressive.

In general im not a fan..... he tries to make CNBC look like the home shopping network for stocks.

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

cramers record is less than stellar, he had pretty good returns but ran his HF in the ultimate bull market

in terms of exit ops, traders will NEVER go to PE. people clearly dont seem to have any grasp what PE firms actually do. at the more junior level, it is all about building models and understanding business drivers and industries, a skill set that traders do not have.

wilson is pretty spot on, traders either go to HFs as execution traders (told what to buy and how many and goal is to get lowest price/manage risk) or stat/macro funds. the people who go into your fundamental based HFs (equity long/short, most credit funds, distressed funds etc) are those with fundamental skills (which traders dont have) such as investment bankers or research analysts.

Execution guys at HF are the first set of eyes for the PM when things develop. Do most funds let their execution guys do daytrading or is that too voodoo?

I would say that even being an execution trader at a HF isnt their end all. These guys watch the market day in day out and pick up patterns/beliefs. If they are not allowed in on the idea generation process they are going to jump ship to some place that will or go off and trade their PA. Most of them WILL want to take risk at some point... Its an itch...

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

thats a shit stupid way of thinking about it.

by your logic, since jeffrey epstein went from being a high school teacher to running his own hedge fund and paying 13 year olds for sex, hedge fund manager/pedophile is an exit op for high school teachers (well, pedophile might be).

yes, people leave trading (or for that matter, ANY career) and go and do completely random shit. that was not the question--it was what exit ops are there for people in trading. if you want to quit your current job and go and become a crack dealer, more power to you. you could probably do it. it wouldn't make crack dealing an exit op for traders (although i'm sure those stellar risk mgmt skills would come in handy).

and btw, being a "trader" isn't what qualified rubin to be treasury secretary...it was the fact that he stayed at goldman, became an md, and then became managing partner/ceo (so the exit op/career path would be rise to md, become ceo, take over the world, then sit on your ass while Citi hemorrhages cash). cramer's exit op was going to start his own hedge fund. taleb's phd is important to being a professor because at real colleges, professors need to be able to produce research. and finally, if you seriously think that becoming a writer is an "exit op" of ANY career path (excepting one where you're already writing), then you seriously misunderstand what it means to be a writer.

 

lol xqtrack thanks for pulling the sheets off this stupidity.

BTW- friends, I've found the best way to be happy in life is not to think too ahead. It's good to plan, but planning your exit from a career you haven't even started is ridiculous and may even be counterproductive (stuck in your plan, you could miss out on less obvious and more lucrative options)

 

Sorry. All i was trying to say was that smart people can always do other things, and that stranger things have happened than traders going to PE or IBD. I confused general opportunities with opportunities available to people because of their trading background, as you guys pointed out...

 

There are some exit options for trading:

  1. portfolio management
  2. Risk Management
  3. Senior Management
  4. Risk advisory (consultancy)
  5. Teaching (if you have a PhD)

Best is to move internally to a risk role after you trade for a few years. The very best RM's are traders, and if you move laterally your comp should follow to some degree.

 

I've never heard that traders transition into a risk mgmt role (primarily b/c compensation tends to be lower)... but usually risk mgmt is a good path to trading... especially in energy. The primary reasoning for this post is to get some input on whether or not a master's in applied sciences w/ emphasis on decision making models and some core operations courses can be used to get a position in corporate finance or ibanking? I think the technical knowledge gained in an applied sciences/engineering master's program can be useful in valuations. Does anyone know of someone who has taken this path? Is this a better option than doing a CFA (which is basically just an extension of the finance knowledge I gained in my undergrad).

 
xqtrack:
to be clear, there is no overlap of skills with VC / PE. as such, your exits to those industries will be non-existent. that being said, if you like sales, there's no reason you can't make it a career. great MDs in sales definitely still make a lot of dough (ie in 7 figs like everybody else)

What about on the trading side? I know you can't just start out in VC or PE, so is the only way to do it through IB? And do you have chances to exit to hedge funds if you do sales or trading?

 
xqtrack:
to be clear, there is no overlap of skills with VC / PE. as such, your exits to those industries will be non-existent. that being said, if you like sales, there's no reason you can't make it a career. great MDs in sales definitely still make a lot of dough (ie in 7 figs like everybody else)
Actually there are multi-million dollar careers in HF capital raising, which often employs ex institutional salespeople.
 

working in capital raising is not what people refer to when they say "exit opp to VC / PE". the CFO or the COO of large private funds also typically make many millions of dollars. that being said, you don't see people on the industry typically encouraging students to join fund accounting or operations because they have exit opps to "VC / PE"...

but yeah, totally agreed. sales can be a great career, and lead to other sales oriented positions. it will typically not lead to investment positions at either hedge funds or PE.

trading can lead to positions in a hedge fund (both as an execution trader or even as an investment professional), but it will very much depend on the product you trade. for example, if you trade MBS, you could have a good shot joining an MBS HF shop. but it would be hard to join say a deep value equities fund without corporate finance experience.

 
xqtrack:
working in capital raising is not what people refer to when they say "exit opp to VC / PE". the CFO or the COO of large private funds also typically make many millions of dollars. that being said, you don't see people on the industry typically encouraging students to join fund accounting or operations because they have exit opps to "VC / PE"...

but yeah, totally agreed. sales can be a great career, and lead to other sales oriented positions. it will typically not lead to investment positions at either hedge funds or PE.

trading can lead to positions in a hedge fund (both as an execution trader or even as an investment professional), but it will very much depend on the product you trade. for example, if you trade MBS, you could have a good shot joining an MBS HF shop. but it would be hard to join say a deep value equities fund without corporate finance experience.

So if you were in my position what would you do? It seems like to eventually end up in the PE/VC role, you have to get there by IB. Now IB seems interesting to me, but in all honesty, I really don't want to be spending my whole young adult life working. Sales and trading (although I don't know which one yet) interests me a lot as well, and it seems like while it's still more than a normal 40 hour a week job, it is better than the hours bankers put in their first few years. Like almost everyone else on here, I want to earn good money at a job, but I don't want to spend my whole life at the job and not have anything to spend my money on or people to spend time with if that makes sense.

PE and VC I don't know as much about, but I am constantly reading up on the industries. They seem very interesting, but if you were in my shoes would you do IB for several years to have the opportunity to get somewhere you might want to be? I know internships at PE and VC are a lot harder to get than IB and S&T internships, so it might be kind of hard to gauge my interest.

Sorry for this rant but any comments would be appreciated!

 
xqtrack:
hard to say. i'd say ultimately do what seems the most fun to you...

if you're really into PE / VC but don't want to be a banker...go into consulting instead. I know a decent number of people going into both PE / VC from there...

If I went to consulting first would it be easy to break into S&T as well?

Conversely, if I did S&T and decided I wanted to go to VC/PE, would it hard to do consulting for a few years as a stepping stone? One of the professors at my university was a sales MD at a BB and made his living there, but now he still does a lot of consulting as well.

 
callmedtop:
Dude, you're a rising sophomore. Stop thinking so much about 5+ years down the line and live a little.

Thanks, I think I needed that haha. 4 weeks ago I started an internship at a PWM firm, and after one week there was an HR fuck up, so I have not been doing anything these last few weeks so I guess I have had too much time to think and worry about stuff.

 

dude, 2 years Ibanking -> PE/VC. you will be 24-25 when you land a buy-side gig. no need to spend your WHOLE adult life grinding away.

S&T will require the same amount of work as ibanking with less of a probability to land a buy-side gig.

forget about ibanking hours...you are in the mercy of your clients and that requires that you are avaible24/7. that said you will not be grinding away all the time (unless you are at GS TMT). I'd say on avg you have 3-4 hours down time, 1 hour lunch, and some meetings. a lot less stressful than S&T and you gain knowledge relevant to a PE/VE gig.

 
oldmansacks:
dude, 2 years Ibanking -> PE/VC. you will be 24-25 when you land a buy-side gig. no need to spend your WHOLE adult life grinding away.

S&T will require the same amount of work as ibanking with less of a probability to land a buy-side gig.

forget about ibanking hours...you are in the mercy of your clients and that requires that you are avaible24/7. that said you will not be grinding away all the time (unless you are at GS TMT). I'd say on avg you have 3-4 hours down time, 1 hour lunch, and some meetings. a lot less stressful than S&T and you gain knowledge relevant to a PE/VE gig.

How is it less stressful than S&T? I don't see how 90-100 work weeks can not be stressful. Its funny because I had lunch with an HR rep at GS and they said they might be able to put me in contact with an MD in TMT haha.

And from what I have heard S&T revolves around market hours (with the exception of sales which does some client dinners or ballgames in the evening). So basically you are there a few hours before opening, so around 7, and you leave sometime around 6, so its more like a 55-60 hour work week.

My original question was this: If I am more interested in S&T than IB, but MIGHT be interested in PE and VC, is it worth doing banking over S&T for something I may or may not end up liking.

 

Take this with a grain of salt, as it's more of an opinion than anything. With solid experience in S&T you have countless options, they just aren't as common.

A while back I visited my BB's emerging markets floor which encompasses deal origination, sales, trading, trade support,and research (I'd assume most firms follow). Similarly, muni bonds were arranged the same way. The deal origination guys (traditional ibanking) were locked in a room that required special access. Anyways, that's not necessarily relevant. The fact of the matter is, you're going to develop solid relationships across the floor.

Sure, margins are slim. Hopefully you'll cover a specialized product, or one that pays out well. Short answer, it'd be foolish not to try it out. You can always specialize in consulting for whatever product you cover. Hope this helps.

I'm on the pursuit of happiness and I know everything that shine ain't always gonna be gold. I'll be fine once I get it
 

Hi,

I think the future of S/T is changing and there will be a massive growth in the area of e-Trading. These platforms that are now being pushed forward by the BB banks to increase market share and become flow monsters.

Is this a true comment?

and what are the exit opportunities for someone working in e-Commerce (business side).

 

They can do trading at a macro hedge fund if they were at a solid FICC desk. But trading is not transferable when it comes to actual investment research. It's probably the most narrow job out there; you pretty much have to get an MBA from a top school to rebrand yourself.

 

exit opps is a term that really applies more to investment banking. People that trade generally enjoy it and leaving to do something else isn't always on the front of their mind. The exit opp to trading, is trading elsewhere, or maybe making investment decisions at a HF that deals with a similar product group that you traded

 

Speaking from first hand experience, the "exit-ops" outside of trading are limited at best. The whole concept of "exit-ops" is an investment banking analyst concept. For most careers, you need to decide if you like what you are actually doing and the direction it will take you. In my opinion, the "well if I do this for a few years what will it get me" attitude is dangerous and, outside of IB or MBB, is not the right way to look at a career.

That being said, to mbavsmfin's point I've been in S&T for five years and will be going back to business school next year. You can PM me if you have any questions.

 

If it's just execution and tinkering with the system to make sure nothing goes awry, you have virtually no exit opps. What transferable useful skill would you bring to the table when you can't code and was just a glorified monkey on an algo desk? Terrible career choice. In general, trading lends itself to very few exit opps, which is why a lot of the traders are now leaving for b-school.

 

It's about the versatility of options available and how safe your livelihood is from economic downturns. Going back to your examples. A software developer at Google can work in any area that entails software, which is a shit ton of jobs. And due to his skillset, he will never have to worry about not being able to find a good job even when the economy is really bad. A lawyer (assuming he went to a top law school and worked at a big firm) is also relatively immune from a downturn since we will always need lawyers. It's even more the case for doctors.

Problem with trading is that due to the specialization of your products and skills, it doesn't cross over that well into other areas. Moreover, your job stability is almost entirely at the mercy of factors totally beyond your control.

 

I am probably wrong in saying this, but I feel like someone who sits on a desk with these kinds of things and understand how markets work could be used for consulting or, with the help of b school, maybe even PE, again, from a consulting stand point. No?

 

Heard it said before and I think it's worth repeating...trading IS the exit opp. If you can spend some time doing that, learn some transferable knowledge, and make the most of it...you might be able to transition to a discretionary trading role on a different desk or at a HF or prop firm if that's more your style. Of course you can also just sit there and do the bare minimum and just enjoy it for what it is. But if trading is what you want to do...that's really your end-game. Most people (in my experience) who get into trading aren't looking to do it for a few years then become a consultant.

"When you stop striving for perfection, you might as well be dead."
 

I don't understand why people say trading has no "exit opportunities". If you can sell yourself and your skillset, which in trading can be programming, quantitative analysis, learning about the underlying products....there are "exit opportunities" to get out of this like going over to tech, a mathematical/data analysis field, or the physical side of the industry (commodities). I've seen a few people go into product sales after trading, as well. Yes, it'll take networking, too, but it's hard to get a job right now regardless. Idk why, but people some people on this site make it seem like trading has about as many transferable skills as being a church pastor or a construction worker - not so.

 

Never quite understood the whole "exit opps" thing either. People become traders because that is what they want to do. They don't want to do it for a year or two and then switch to something else. It starts with trading and ends with trading usually. As for economic downturns, a lot of people besides traders are also fucked when that happens.

 

I think some of you are missing the point. Algo trading I feel is a niche area of trading. To be more to the point, I want to be a trader at a hedge fund, particular a hedge fund that works in risk/merger arb. They have traders that help execute these positions. I want to do that. I feel like taking this algo trading jump pins me to algo trading which I do not believe these type of funds find any value in.

 

MBA S&T exit ops are the same as undergrad S&T exit ops as far as I know... there has been very significant discussion on this topic.

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard. -30 Rock
 

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  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (85) $262
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (65) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (198) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (143) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

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success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”