Who Is Poor?
Andy note: "Blast from the past - Best of Eddie" - This one is originally from Sep. 2010. If there's an old post from Eddie you'd like to see up again shoot me a message.
Yesterday's conversation about who is rich was so interesting that I thought I'd take today to explore who is poor, and what it means to be poor in America these days. Just so we're all operating with the same figures, here is the latest U.S. poverty index. The data concludes that the poverty line for 2010 is an annual income of $22,000 for a family of four. A greater number of Americans live below the poverty line now than at any time in the 51-year history of U.S. poverty statistics (but not the greatest percentage).
We touched on this yesterday, and I commented (admittedly with little frame of reference) that $22,000 seemed pretty high, especially in relation to the $50,000 median U.S. family income rate. So I did some research and found some pretty fascinating facts about what it means to be "poor" in America.
Before you label me a fascist, I'm not making light of anyone's unfortunate circumstance. With the possible exception of my ex-wives, I hate to see anyone suffer - especially children. I realize that no one wants to be poor. I also realize that government has a vested interest in keeping people poor, and creates dis-incentives to people bettering their lot in life. Nowhere is this case better illustrated than in Uncle Sam's Plantation, for those who are interested.
So what does it mean to be poor in America? Are the majority of the poor homeless? Are they starving? The latest year I could find accurate figures for was 2007 and, while the housing picture may have changed in the interim for some, I'm guessing the rest of the stats are pretty accurate.
Thirteen percent of the poor (so 13% of 43.6 million people, or about five and a half million) experience food insecurity at some point over the course of the year. That means that just under six million Americans don't know where their next meal is coming from at least once per year. Make no mistake - that's a travesty. But it also means that food is not an issue for 98.5% of the population.
As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middleclass children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier that the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.
Here are some startling facts about what it means to be "poor" in America:
- 46% of poor households own their own home and it is a 3-bdrm, 1.5 bath with a garage and porch/patio
- 80% have air conditioning
- 66% have more than 2 rooms per occupant
- 75% own a car; 31% own 2 or more
- 97% have color TV; more than 50% have 2 or more color TVs
- 78% have a VCR or DVD; 62% have cable or satellite
- 89% have a microwave; more than 50% have a stereo; more than 33% have an automatic dishwasher
The real kicker for me is that the average American below the poverty line has more living space than the average citizen (not poor citizen, the average citizen) in Paris, London, or Vienna.
Again, I'm not pointing this stuff out to be a jerk and say, "Hey, look how great they've got it!" Nothing could be further from the truth. But if the upper middle class in the U.S. is going to be demonized for being unwilling to live without what lower-income individuals consider luxuries (private schooling, vacations, etc...), I think it should cut both ways.
The poor in America have a higher standard of living than the average citizen in the vast majority of the rest of the world, and that's as it should be. We are, after all, the land of the free and the home of the brave. But runaway welfare spending and soak-the-rich programs are dooming generations to a life of prolonged misery. When a young man makes more money to sit in a strip club (or worse, to sling crack on the corner) than to get a job and pull his family out of poverty, we all lose.
I know this is an emotional issue, so I would ask that you at least try to keep it civil in the comments section. There are desperately poor people in America, and we should all do more to help them. But they are far from the majority of American poor.
Can someone give me a rational reason why it doesn't make more sense to abandon the monstrous tax code that clearly favors one class above another and go to a national sales tax? Isn't killing off the IRS once and for all reason enough to try it? Seriously, guys. What are the real arguments against a consumption tax that taxes everyone equally?
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Quote: The real kicker for me
The real kicker for me is that the average American below the poverty line has more living space than the average citizen (not poor citizen, the average citizen) in Paris, London, or Vienna.
you're comparing apples to oranges here.
but other than that, definitely an illuminating post.
1. Sales tax discourages
1. Sales tax discourages consumption with his 70% of our economy.
2. I agree that the tax code is too complicated, favors one class over another and needs to be changed, but a radical overhaul would kill jobs for the millions of people who work as tax specialists at places like H&R block, etc. Now is not a good time for that.
Agree with the general perspective of the post though... tax system is unfair
My dad pulls down a quarter
My dad pulls down a quarter of a million plus a year and with 4 kids, 2 in college, 2 heading to college, one already going to a private university, and no sort of financial aid in sight, it certainly feels like we are poor. ( he wont let us take any loans)
also have to look at people
also have to look at people who choose to have 500 kids, have the wife then stay at home vs work because of the economic advantages of being below a set income limit and not having to pay for babysitting/nannies overcoming the value of working and producing.
education spending on the secondary levels should be increased if we are to give 'hand outs' to ultimately get the gears spinning in our future generations to have them be competitive with the rest of the world.
I need a crib, a big estate, I need a boat and that need a lake, I need some salmon that need a plate, that need a chef so I feed my safe
From trading equities to slanging wine in Latin America
A ship is safe in harbor, but that is not what a ship i
I'm going to paraphrase what
I'm going to paraphrase what Warren Buffet said: even the super-wealthy in America are an inherent by-product of our society. There shouldn't be any reason why you don't feel obligated to give back to the society that gave you a chance to make the type of money you did. If you don't believe it, then move to Somolia or Bangladesh and try finding a $80K banking job right out of college or starting up a Google.
Also, you can't use those statistics to show that they are doing well. Yes, feeding a kid spam all his life will make him big, but it doesn't necessarily mean hes healthy.
I need to think about this a little more ... I'll give you a better response later.
Quote: I'm going to
I'm going to paraphrase what Warren Buffet said: even the super-wealthy in America are an inherent by-product of our society. There shouldn't be any reason why you don't feel obligated to give back to the society that gave you a chance to make the type of money you did. If you don't believe it, then move to Somolia or Bangladesh and try finding a $80K banking job right out of college or starting up a Google.
I agree, but at some point, one does have to wonder what society's responsibility to the poor really is. If they have a warm place to sleep and food to eat, we are fulfilling our responsibility to them, IMHO. Maybe we ought to give the poor healthcare in a perfect world, but we can't afford it right now.
What makes this country great- and what successful people need to maintain- is the fact that people who have the right attitude in life don't have to wind up where they started. And we need to make sure everyone gets these opportunities- not just a small token lottery for certain people but for the entire country.
Work hard, play hard.
part of what drives my
part of what drives my reasoning and logic regarding this whole situation is that i used to live in the projects and my parents had me while in high school and definitely didnt come from money yet my dad was able to pull himself up from his boot straps, drop out of HS go into truck driving school and work his ass off to afford his own big rig and start his own business (although he ended up fucking himself over with bad decisions) and i was able to be on my own due to aforementioned family fuckup from 17 and put myself school and end up being successful.
so.. why are some people able to find the drive, initiative and ambition to regulate their circumstances? luck or is it effort? or 'matter of circumstances'? a girl i know said 'but not everyone is as intelligent or as driven as you', are we supposed to penalize or reward people for not having such traits?
I need a crib, a big estate, I need a boat and that need a lake, I need some salmon that need a plate, that need a chef so I feed my safe
From trading equities to slanging wine in Latin America
A ship is safe in harbor, but that is not what a ship i
we are supposed to help those
we are supposed to help those who aren't as intelligent or as driven as you simply because if someone was undriven and unintelligent and his father happened to be the opposite and rich he would get every undeserved thing he wants in life. Consequently, those who are poor and intelligent have to work that much harder than even the average middle class or average rich guy, its that unfairness that is an issue. No ur not supposed to penalize intelligence or drive, guys like shorttheworld worked real hard, but bro, even some poor and intelligent who work hard dont get where they want to be simply because they started poor. Those statistics are trash, if you haven't actually gone and seen the conditions some of these ppl in small town america, and metropolitan ghettos live in then you cant say shit. Its a self-defeating cycle, health care is a basic necessity, not a priviledge for the rich (costs are going up).
bbc wrote: I'm going to
I'm going to paraphrase what Warren Buffet said: even the super-wealthy in America are an inherent by-product of our society. There shouldn't be any reason why you don't feel obligated to give back to the society that gave you a chance to make the type of money you did. If you don't believe it, then move to Somolia or Bangladesh and try finding a $80K banking job right out of college or starting up a Google.
Also, you can't use those statistics to show that they are doing well. Yes, feeding a kid spam all his life will make him big, but it doesn't necessarily mean hes healthy.
I need to think about this a little more ... I'll give you a better response later.
By "giving back" to society I assume you mean paying higher taxes. Everyone agrees that private charity is important and the facts show that the wealthy give the most back to society in the form of private charity. But nobody owes a greater obligation to pay higher tax rates to society--presumably, everyone has had a relatively equal opportunity to succeed (financially) as mostly everyone has had access to public education and infrastructure provided by government. Why would the wealthy owe a greater debt to society when society has provided approximately equal opportunity to succeed? It's like saying the guy who got promoted instead of me owes me lunch once a week.
Besides, one could argue that given the regulatory and tax environment of the United States, one succeeds in business in spite of "society" (and let's be honest, you mean "government" when you say "society"), not because of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid
We already give the poor free healthcare.
We are not supposed to help people who are stupid or poor. People are free to make choices and they are free to suffer the consequences. We offer free education, low cost universities, free insurance, food stamps, welfare, heating subsidies, Section 8, etc. How many more social programs can we roll out before we can say we have done enough? There will always be poor and unintelligent. You find them in Europe as well as everywhere. That is life.
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I love how wealthy seems to
I love how wealthy seems to indicated trust fund wealth. The majority of "rich" people in this country are small business owners who IMO have given back more than they have received. It is jealousy and free riding, plain and simple.
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BigBucks wrote: we are
we are supposed to help those who aren't as intelligent or as driven as you simply because if someone was undriven and unintelligent and his father happened to be the opposite and rich he would get every undeserved thing he wants in life. Consequently, those who are poor and intelligent have to work that much harder than even the average middle class or average rich guy, its that unfairness that is an issue. No ur not supposed to penalize intelligence or drive, guys like shorttheworld worked real hard, but bro, even some poor and intelligent who work hard dont get where they want to be simply because they started poor. Those statistics are trash, if you haven't actually gone and seen the conditions some of these ppl in small town america, and metropolitan ghettos live in then you cant say shit. Its a self-defeating cycle, health care is a basic necessity, not a priviledge for the rich (costs are going up).
You know what, people like you don't know what you're talking about. I worked in affordable multifamily apartment finance for 2 years. While I would never choose to live in Section 8 housing, the housing projects are just fine and are a far, far cry from actual poverty. In fact, one of the reasons I quit the affordable housing industry is because I got sick as hell of seeing Escalades parked in a resident's carport while I pulled up in my used 1998 Volvo that I paid for with my own labor. The only real povery I've ever observed was in the white mountain communities of eastern Kentucky. That's legitimate poverty.
We keep coming back to
We keep coming back to healthcare. I'll admit that it's a tough problem. But the fact is that anyone in an emergent situation can walk into any emergency room in the country and get treated without insurance or any realistic expectation of payment. I know this because it's the reason my insurance rates are so high.
Moreover, a family accident policy can be purchased for roughly $50 a month that covers every member of the family in case of an accident. There is no underwriting on these policies, so there is no chance of being denied coverage for a pre-existing condition because only accidents are covered. The fact is that the vast majority of hospital visits are caused by accidents and not illness.
The average hospital bill in America is $1,300. Of course, the number can be drastically higher under many circumstances, but $1,300 is the average. If $1,300 drives you into bankruptcy, I hate to break it to you but you were already there.
There should be no income tax
There should be no income tax especially for non-millionaires. I propose a cap on individual and family net worth at say $500M. Anything over that has to be taxed IF THERE ARE GOING TO BE TAXES AT ALL. Personally I say no taxes but if there has to be taxes let those commie douchebags soros or buffett (who advocate higher taxes for the "lower rich") pay 90% of their wealth. No one needs tens of billions in net worth. Under my plan anyone could have a net worth of 500M TAX FREE, but anything over that would be taxed.
The problem here is that the poor are not allowed to compete with the rich since the rich are above the law and buy anyone off (or have others threatened) who regulates them. The poor are regulated but the rich billionaires are unofficially allowed to do anything they want to get richer and fuck society over. If the poor were allowed to compete, the profit margins would narrow and everyone would get a piece of the action.
What exactly are the poor
What exactly are the poor going to compete with? A turnip picking contest? Being wealthy offers you more opportunities, that is about it. Rich still go to jail, get sick and die. Life is not fair, hate to break it to you.
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Id be interested in seeing a
Everything is relative
Virginia Tech 4ever
I need a crib, a big estate, I need a boat and that need a lake, I need some salmon that need a plate, that need a chef so I feed my safe
From trading equities to slanging wine in Latin America
A ship is safe in harbor, but that is not what a ship i
I think success in life
Work hard, play hard.
Virginia Tech 4ever
Ok, we can go on and on and
Work hard, play hard.
BigBucks wrote: Virginia
What do people mean by give
The welfare system was
Hi everyone. Maybe it's time
Work hard, play hard.
Plain fact is that poverty in
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Yes saying I have the
BrownyAce89 wrote: Instead of
Edmundo Braverman
i concur with anthony
I need a crib, a big estate, I need a boat and that need a lake, I need some salmon that need a plate, that need a chef so I feed my safe
From trading equities to slanging wine in Latin America
A ship is safe in harbor, but that is not what a ship i
@ Bucks - None of my comments
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shorttheworld wrote: and if
http://www.chathamhouse.org.u
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I think the advocacy for
I think a large amount of
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Anthony . wrote: I think a
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BigBucks wrote: Yes saying I
I think most of the major
Anthony . wrote: I think a
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
pointless
EDIT: fine, F it.
Ok, are we done with the
Work hard, play hard.
Therightcoast wrote: What do
pointless
i love jesus!!
I need a crib, a big estate, I need a boat and that need a lake, I need some salmon that need a plate, that need a chef so I feed my safe
From trading equities to slanging wine in Latin America
A ship is safe in harbor, but that is not what a ship i
I am poor.
looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
I spent a month traveling
This is what makes me pissed
One thing I've wondered for
Virginia Tech 4ever: By
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