Is honesty the best policy?
I'm a rising junior at a target (H/W). This summer I am interning at GS/MS/JPM in equity research. Even before the summer started I knew that I wanted to do IB for my junior summer but I don't entirely know how to navigate the process from within the firm. Next week my boss and I are having a mid summer review (I expect to be rated average if that matters) and I am curious if I should tell her that I want to look elsewhere within the firm and hope that it can open a dialogue, or just close my mouth and continue to network behind her back. The thing is, there is a 0% chance I would accept the return to ER so I want to know if it is worth risking being honest (and potentially botching getting a return offer altogether) to make it clear that I want to move into IB within the same firm. Sure there are non-retailiation clauses and things, but we all know how the world works and I don't want to look like damaged goods during recruiting with no return offer in case internal mobility doesn't work out. Thanks in advance to anyone with any insights!
Don't tell her you are looking into other areas as an intern trying to get a return offer. Your career is like a poker game don't tip your hand to your boss. Network behind her back and brush up your resume and start applying to other divisions.
Not getting a return offer for sophomore summer is not nearly as big a deal as not getting a return offer for full time after your junior summer. You can very easily explain to recruiters that you were very interested in equity research for xyz reasons and enjoyed being able to do that this summer but ultimately wanted to work more closely with companies and see your analysis actually being used by the firms.
In terms of internal mobility, It really depends on the dynamic of your group. I was in a similar situation at my boutique this summer except that I wanted to switch to IBD this summer (as I knew I wasn't going to be returning to the boutique). I was super tight with my analyst and the junior associates cause we would shoot the shit all day and I was up front and put everything on the table and they ended helping me meet some bankers and set up a convo with HR to help me make the switch.
That being said, you're the best judge of your boss' vibe. It would probably be unwise to bring it up during mid summer review cause it might seem like you're saying that you've had a shit time so far. You could perhaps grab lunch with her and ask her for career advice and during that convo just slip it in that you've also thought about banking because of xyz.
Internal mobility for SA-> SA is a different world to SA -> FT. Definitely tell your boss, especially if you know you won't return. Personally, every single sophomore summer I knew who wanted to change divisions was able to do so internally.
It's different for rising seniors who need a return offer for interviews. You don't. If you don't get it, you can always say that you told your bosses you wanted to do IB instead and decided you didn't want to pursue ER.
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Is Honesty Key? (Originally Posted: 08/19/2017)
I don't mean honesty as in "not-lying" - I mean it in the sense of being very transparent and confronting inevitable negative issues. It seems as though a lot of interview questions are made to see how professionally you can B.S. an answer (think "What's your greatest weakness?"). Obviously, you can't say anything that will get you "dinged", but to what extent is honesty appreciated by the interviewer?
I'm sure in the financial industry, as with in life in general, it is important to keep a very positive appearance. So, I am wondering, for example, if you had two candidates with the same credentials, but one is better at talking himself up (without giving off cocky vibes) and the other one is more humble, which one would you prefer. Is it more important to be able to sell yourself, or to be down to earth?
I know this topic is very subjective and a bit vague, but I wanted to hear some insights, since I find myself inclined to talking myself down more often than talking myself up. Have you guys had an experience, where someone's honesty impressed you to the extent that it gave them an edge? Also, on a different note, what is the most B.S. thing you have gotten away with (not that I am trying to encourage dishonesty, just might be funny)?
Thank god you're not sinking!!!!
I've seen that people hate the phrase "rising x" several times on here but I still don't understand why. I hear it all the time.
Because it doesn't mean anything, it's redundant. I'm a living human. I'm a physically active athlete. I'm an employed employee. I'm a self-employed entrepreneur.
It's implied you are taking classes to advance to your degree if you state you are a junior.
"Rising" is annoying to me too. I always associated it with self promotion. Like a rising star.
Honesty isn't key, it is a basic requirement. When dealing with financials, honesty and transparency are the basic ground rules of the game.
With that being said, interview questions like "What is your greatest weakness" are not centered around being honest or dishonest, they gauge your ability to communicate and answer a tough question with an amount of candor and self-reflectiveness that enables the interviewer to understand if you can effectively identify your true self as a candidate without being lost in the clouds of your accomplishments without an eye for your weaknesses.
But, BSing is a part of every interview. Its not about being dishonest, its about answering the questions in an honest way that best frames you as a candidate. Definite no-nos to this question are things like "I don't really like getting up early", "I would rather not work high hours" and the like.
Interview guides often have good answers to this question. Pick an appropriate answer that matches to your situation and go from there. Something like 'my greatest weakness is that I put a lot of pressure on myself to get the job done' or something like that is a more favorable response. But, be armed and ready for rebuttals to answers like that, like are you a team player, can you delegate when needed, etc.
Honesty with a dash of discretion is key.
In Finance most of those who get ahead are really able to talk themselves up. An interview question like "Do you ever tell other people about your successes?" often translates to; "Can you tell other people about our company's success?"
Being Honest= Bad? (Originally Posted: 08/19/2011)
I had coffee today with a top 5 liberal arts grad MD at a top BB. I explained my story, my rationale for wanting to go into investment banking, etc. My pre-packaged interview questions responses, insincere as they may have been, had worked on most senior level bankers I had encountered. But this guy was different, and tore my entire pitch apart. He ultimately concluded his lesson with:
" Maybe it's your generation, but there seems to be some stigma against saying 'I don't know' to a question. But to me, those words say much more about you as a person than anything else"
At first, everything he said make sense- be honest, do what you enjoy, say what you mean, etc. But then I fought back and gave what I believe to be a valid excuse for why I had devolved from a free-thinking intellectually-minded college student into a toolish parrot- because I've been dinged for being honest: for admitting that I thought there were more long-term opportunities in Asia than in the American South; for admitting that I wasn't entirely sure of the IB-> PE route was for me; for admitting that I'd rather spend my time reading books alone than "making it rain" at a sketchy strip club; for admitting that there was something I didn't know. I told him that in a perfect world, I would be myself. But in one as judgmental as this, there are simply too many rewards for bullshit.
At the end of the day we agreed to disagree, and he actually respected me even more for voicing my opinion. Unfortunately, from what I've seen, most individuals in this industry won't be coming from the same perspective and I will have to resort to the old-fashioned prepackaged verbal diarrhea that everyone wants to hear.
Honestly, what do you guys think? Is this the culture of investment banking, or corporate culture in general? If you can't tell, I'm pretty disgusted.
Would you tell your wife (boss) that you are planning on having an affair with another women (division)?
Its best not to tell your boss, just continue to network and build your resume to move on to a front office position.
You sure you want banking?
telling false opinions => weak lies (this is okay- sometimes you have to sell shit) telling false facts => strong lies (not okay- my definition of someone who is "dishonest")
Of course you can still get in trouble for weak lies (e.g. ER analysts hyping up tech stocks pre-2000), but within the more relaxed morals of big business (not just wall street) most people aren't going to criticize you for it.
Strong lies on the other hand (e.g. changing accounting statements, university transcripts, or really any raw figures- both verbal and written), isn't something most people accept- even the more morally-loose groups on wall street.
The examples you gave in your post could all be fixed by weak lies- so yes, you should lie (But hint: nobody's ever going to tell you to do it- they'll even publicly argue against it).
No, I'm not entirely sure. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth my time to pursue it given that I need to find a job and support myself.
In my experience, being a liar has gotten you so much ahead. One of the hardest life lessons I ever had to learn.
can you expand on this?
See, I don't mind people being competitive. I don't mind people spending more time in the office, which in turns compels me to spend more time in the office. I don't mind people teaching themselves modeling on their own time, because this pushes me to a higher standard of taking the initiative. But if everyone else is monetarily and societally rewarded for lying- why in the flying fuck would anyone tell the truth? I wish I wasn't so naive and idealistic.
You're cool and all, and I agree with most of what you're trying to say here...but...did you just say you would rather read a book by yourself than let a stripper grind a hole through your genitals?
Standards.
I has none.
But yeah, I might actually take the romp with that middle-aged mistress than have to lie out of my ass for the rest of my life.
Basically, he told you stfu because you came off as pompous. You sound a lot like the "impossible is nothing" character.
You reminded me of a qoute: “one of those damn do-gooders with their shocked, holier-than-thou silences, their one talent making others feel guilty”
I was about to completely tear this apart but a quick background check reveals that you're a community college dropout currently working security.... so I think I'll be the better man and not say anything.
a principal at a fairly decent pe fund praised me for saying 'I don't know, and don't want to give a wrong answer' to an accounting question during an interview the other day
i've personally stuggled with this same concept ever since i decided to look into going into banking. I was initially a liberal arts student and I think personality wise, I'm like that. I'm somewhat more of an introvert than an extravert, I'd prefer good conversation with close friends over getting fucked up and partying any day, and I think I place value on different things than the average business student. I'm still not sure what the answer to your question is. Part of me thinks that holding my dignity and being true to myself is more important than getting a job, but another part of me is really fucking competitive and knows that dignity is something I'm going to have to sacrifice at some point down the road anyway..if I want this banking.. so why now start now?
I think if you can be you and be honest to yourself at an interview and do it RIGHT then you're far better off than most everyone else out there. If you don't, however, know how to be yourself, be confident, and make it work, than you're better off being another scripted applicant. To me, that's not impressive and I think I would see right through that. But in the banking world, maybe knowing all the right answers and fitting into their mold perfectly is exactly what they're looking for.
I also think that just like everything else in the world..if you're GOOD you have more leeway. If you're from a target and have high grades and your resume screams FINANCE you're a lot more likely to be able to get away with acting a little nontraditional. The less "banker" your background/resume is though, the more you're going to have to fit their mold by being who you think they want you to be.
Unfortunately, this is what I've continually found to be the case. It sounds like BB's discriminate against anything non-Ivy league/Northeast old money, but the MM I interned at discriminated against anything remotely academic. Somehow in their eyes, a fratty business major that took one finance class would somehow be a better banker, and by extension, more successful at life than some biology major or some history major that became fluent in Chinese but didn't have finance courses available to him at his college. It almost felt like public high school, but high school was 9-3, and if I wanted to take a day off, I just did.
Double post. argh.
deleted.
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I'm kind of impressed that the MD called you out on it and is a guy that would accept the answer 'I don't know'. Because truthfully a lot of people just go into their first real jobs not knowing whether they'll enjoy it or not.
And it's tough, because "I don't know", depending on how it's said - can imply 'I don't know - I haven't read much about banking, just that it makes $$$ and sounds baller' or 'I've done a lot of reading on IB, and the valuations, financial modeling, and close interactions with companies on transactions is really interesting, but I don't know if it's something I want to do for 5 years down the road until I try it'. In the case of this guy, I think the latter would be a fair answer.
But most people may just want the canned answer (with good delivery) and many candidates stick to safe answers, 'cause they work at times.
OP - most people don't know whether finance is for them, and you don't really know till you try. But a way to assess is to determine if you're interested in some of the things done... valuations, modeling, learning about various things banks do to advise firms, etc.
Should I be honest? (Originally Posted: 07/02/2013)
Hey guys,
I recently quit my job after having worked there for 4 months. I just wasn't happy with the job and the environment. I am applying to jobs now and I am simply not sure what I am going to say when asked about my last job. Should I tell the truth and tell them I simply wasn't happy with the role and the manager? Or should I make up an excuse? I know for a fact I won't be getting a reference from my last manger. I can take the honest approach and hope for the best but I hear as soon you mention colleague/manager issues at a job interview your chances are pretty much slim. What do you guys think? Be honest or not? If being honest is not an option, what excuse should I come up with for leaving? Family issues, geographic reasons, etc. I appreciate all your thoughts.
Ok, so you don't need to put yourself on the spot, but if you are at GS, then step it up. I'm sure you're aware GS doesn't really help employees change divisions unless they exceed the expectations set for their current roles. I don't know about other firms, but GS won't help you make the move to IB if you do an "average" job in ER.
That being said, if I were you I'd start working at a higher gear. Then, tell your manager that, although you like this internship, you feel that IB might be a better fit for you because of X, Y & Z. Then, say you'll keep working at the same level (hopefully higher than now), but that you'd appreciate his/her help making the transation.
Final note: If you really think the IB division is not going to go ask your current manager about your performance, you're being naïve. And you really, really don't want your manager to reply "he/she was average."
I was in this situation (6 months as opposed to 4, but whatever). I took the honest route, said I thought the work was really interesting, but the environment wasn't a match. Just be honest - you didn't like the lack of responsibility, you didn't think the work was challenging, whatever it may have been. Better safe than sorry.
I was also in a career change situation though, so it was a lot easier for me.
I recently resigned from current role, but fortunately found the opportunity I wanted before resigning. I always tell other people to be honest about previous employment and being as positive as you can about the role. Remember, always be respectful and positive when speaking about previous roles in interviews. Good Luck on the job search...
The problem is their going to ask for specifics when I am honest. For example,
Scenario 1 Me: " I thought the work was really interesting, but the environment wasn't a match"
Interviewer: "What about the environment didn't you like? " Me: " I didn't like my manager and the way he treated us"
See I can't say this.....
I don't see why you can't hold a conversation like this. You just have to be able to back up your reasoning and not sound flaky. I think, if possible to keep it vague at the least and not mention specific people, and if perhaps can say that the role was not as advertised when you initially started working there.
Be honest, if your interviewer is understanding, then they know that not every job is perfect. Chances are they may have even shared a similar experience at an earlier point. Obviously you need to phrase it better than you didn't like your manager. Something like you were not being assigned work and felt like you could be learning more.
Something like this is best thought of over a nice tall glass of milk and a few Oreos. Go sit down somewhere quiet and relaxing and think it over - you'll be surprised at the clarity you get when you are in a less pressured environment.
Trust me - get the Oreos.
Best of luck!
Either man up and be honest, OR SIMPLY DON'T INCLUDE IT IN YOUR RESUME. It's only 4 months. It's probably not significant work experience. People aren't stupid. They can smell an excuse from a mile away. Coming up with some cotton-candy-excuse to make yourself sound better isn't going to help you, and it surely isn't doing much for your integrity. I don't even know you, but I already wouldn't want to work with/hire you.
Def be honest in this case...
Should You Be Honest About Your 5 Year Plan? (Originally Posted: 07/10/2013)
So I want to eventually get a job at a PE firm or a HF. But I really think that its good to have an IB experience (2 years or so) prior to transferring to the buy side. I'm starting my interview process for IB soon. Should I be honest about wanting to go to the buy side, or just bs about wanting to stay in IB forever?
To answer the overarching question, honesty is always the best policy. However, being selective with what you say is not the same as being dishonest. In fact, the less people know about your plans the less they can do to prevent you from executing them.
Network like crazy, but no one should be the wiser. When networking in the company, think subterranean connecting tunnels to escape prison. The less anyone knows about your network (co-workers... fellow inmates and the like) the better.
In my opinion, a successful transition would be people finding out you're transferring as you walk away from your desk.
+1
No. Honesty is bad.
Tell them what they want to hear
Sort of depends on your age I think.. A newly graduated person can be specific about short-term goals, such as the desire to work in Banking, but could be more open when answering your 5 year goals. Because no fresh graduate really knows this.. I would say be open about it, if this is the case for you, and say you may have interest in the buy-side several years down the road but you really cannot tell just yet. But reassure that Banking is what you are set on in the present.
Just outline your development/learning/experience goals; avoid professional goals like the plague.
I usually go with "I'll be your boss in 5 years, do you have any more questions you'd like to ask me?" Don't forget to scribble pretentiously when they give you funny looks. Bonus points for mumbling that they won't be getting a call back.
Is being honest a liability in ER? (Originally Posted: 04/07/2014)
I have been wondering if there is a severe conflict of interest when you're supposed to be covering a company, but you need to keep a good relationship with execs there:
Have you ever heard of an ER guy getting blacklisted or shutout because he gave negative coverage on a stock?
Has anyone ever been bribed or threatened?
I'm asking because when I interview for ER positions and they ask "what are 3 of your weaknesses?" I'm thinking in my mind "I'm blunt and honest". But that might not be a wise maneuver to pull during an interview even if that's how I feel in my heart.
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The main issue is the fact you will have access to privileged information (ie early earnings info) and are NOT supposed to pass it onto buyside clients. So I think honesty is a good trait. Just don't make it sound like you run your mouth off and say everything that comes into your head - honest but discreet!
Of the 100+ companies we have under coverage, not a single one is rated less than 'neutral' - don't worry about badmouthing your coverage companies, you won't be allowed to do it in the first place
I've heard about people getting blacklisted, but I've never seen it happen or experienced it. I think it's likely to happen, but no ER analysts are really that negative on any of their names.
I've never been bribed or threatened, but if you work at a smaller shop (especially with small caps) banking revenue is how everyone gets paid. Therefore, there's an implicit and sometimes more explicit pressure to be positive about covered companies so your firm can win deals. It's the worst part of the business IMO. Some companies are just dogshit.
what size are we talking about here? How big are the companies that you're covering?
And on Wall Street, you're allowed to write coverage on a company while garnering their M&A business?
Pretty sure that's a conflict of interest that would never fly in public accounting. I think CPAs are barred from being a company's auditor as well being their bookkeeper, tax accountant, and consultant.
I can't think of a real job where being honest isn't a liability.
And if you think the Chinese wall between ER and IB actually exists you're kidding yourselves.
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There are lots of conflicts of interest for the ER guys. Usually, they seem more than happy to go along and always be overly bullish about everything, but occasionally an analyst will stick his neck out and publish a negative or more critical report. I've heard of one analyst who was on a 3 hour drive with the CFO of a company who pulled out a highlighted version of his report and proceeded to berate him on why all of the claims were false. Usually there wouldn't be any actual "threats" per se, but it goes without saying that you are significantly impairing your banks chances of winning the M&A or secondary offerings for that company.
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