Being Honest= Bad?
I had coffee today with a top 5 liberal arts grad MD at a top BB. I explained my story, my rationale for wanting to go into investment banking, etc. My pre-packaged interview questions responses, insincere as they may have been, had worked on most senior level bankers I had encountered. But this guy was different, and tore my entire pitch apart. He ultimately concluded his lesson with:
" Maybe it's your generation, but there seems to be some stigma against saying 'I don't know' to a question. But to me, those words say much more about you as a person than anything else"
At first, everything he said make sense- be honest, do what you enjoy, say what you mean, etc. But then I fought back and gave what I believe to be a valid excuse for why I had devolved from a free-thinking intellectually-minded college student into a toolish parrot- because I've been dinged for being honest: for admitting that I thought there were more long-term opportunities in Asia than in the American South; for admitting that I wasn't entirely sure of the IB-> PE route was for me; for admitting that I'd rather spend my time reading books alone than "making it rain" at a sketchy strip club; for admitting that there was something I didn't know. I told him that in a perfect world, I would be myself. But in one as judgmental as this, there are simply too many rewards for bullshit.
At the end of the day we agreed to disagree, and he actually respected me even more for voicing my opinion. Unfortunately, from what I've seen, most individuals in this industry won't be coming from the same perspective and I will have to resort to the old-fashioned prepackaged verbal diarrhea that everyone wants to hear.
Honestly, what do you guys think? Is this the culture of investment banking, or corporate culture in general? If you can't tell, I'm pretty disgusted.
You sure you _want_ banking?
You sure you _want_ banking?
telling false opinions =>
telling false opinions => weak lies (this is okay- sometimes you have to sell shit)
telling false facts => strong lies (not okay- my definition of someone who is "dishonest")
Of course you can still get in trouble for weak lies (e.g. ER analysts hyping up tech stocks pre-2000), but within the more relaxed morals of big business (not just wall street) most people aren't going to criticize you for it.
Strong lies on the other hand (e.g. changing accounting statements, university transcripts, or really any raw figures- both verbal and written), isn't something most people accept- even the more morally-loose groups on wall street.
The examples you gave in your post could all be fixed by weak lies- so yes, you should lie (But hint: nobody's ever going to tell you to do it- they'll even publicly argue against it).
No, I'm not entirely sure.
No, I'm not entirely sure. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth my time to pursue it given that I need to find a job and support myself.
In my experience, being a
In my experience, being a liar has gotten you so much ahead. One of the hardest life lessons I ever had to learn.
See, I don't mind people
See, I don't mind people being competitive. I don't mind people spending more time in the office, which in turns compels me to spend more time in the office. I don't mind people teaching themselves modeling on their own time, because this pushes me to a higher standard of taking the initiative. But if everyone else is monetarily and societally rewarded for lying- why in the flying fuck would anyone tell the truth? I wish I wasn't so naive and idealistic.
Culcet wrote: See, I don't
See, I don't mind people being competitive. I don't mind people spending more time in the office, which in turns compels me to spend more time in the office. I don't mind people teaching themselves modeling on their own time, because this pushes me to a higher standard of taking the initiative. But if everyone else is monetarily and societally rewarded for lying- why in the flying fuck would anyone tell the truth? I wish I wasn't so naive and idealistic.
You're cool and all, and I agree with most of what you're trying to say here...but...did you just say you would rather read a book by yourself than let a stripper grind a hole through your genitals?
Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
Flake wrote: Culcet
See, I don't mind people being competitive. I don't mind people spending more time in the office, which in turns compels me to spend more time in the office. I don't mind people teaching themselves modeling on their own time, because this pushes me to a higher standard of taking the initiative. But if everyone else is monetarily and societally rewarded for lying- why in the flying fuck would anyone tell the truth? I wish I wasn't so naive and idealistic.
You're cool and all, and I agree with most of what you're trying to say here...but...did you just say you would rather read a book by yourself than let a stripper grind a hole through your genitals?
Standards.
I has none.
I has none.
Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
Culcet wrote: Flake
See, I don't mind people being competitive. I don't mind people spending more time in the office, which in turns compels me to spend more time in the office. I don't mind people teaching themselves modeling on their own time, because this pushes me to a higher standard of taking the initiative. But if everyone else is monetarily and societally rewarded for lying- why in the flying fuck would anyone tell the truth? I wish I wasn't so naive and idealistic.
You're cool and all, and I agree with most of what you're trying to say here...but...did you just say you would rather read a book by yourself than let a stripper grind a hole through your genitals?
Standards.
I realize that I misread your post and what could have been a potentially witty retort no longer makes sense.
I'll keep it simple- there are some "girls" out there that I'm just not attracted to. If my best bro is having a bachelor party in Vegas and wants me to help him celebrate, do I join in? Absolutely, and with pleasure. Would I rather be hounded by some 43 year-old has-been pseudo-hooker that has more armpit hair than read some literary masterpiece that gives me some degree of catharsis after being exposed to so much bullshit in the world. (for free, at that)? Um, no.
It's just not really my scene. That's all.
But yeah, I might actually
But yeah, I might actually take the romp with that middle-aged mistress than have to lie out of my ass for the rest of my life.
Basically, he told you stfu
Basically, he told you stfu because you came off as pompous. You sound a lot like the "impossible is nothing" character.
You reminded me of a qoute: “one of those damn do-gooders with their shocked, holier-than-thou silences, their one talent making others feel guilty”
a principal at a fairly
a principal at a fairly decent pe fund praised me for saying 'I don't know, and don't want to give a wrong answer' to an accounting question during an interview the other day
i've personally stuggled with
i've personally stuggled with this same concept ever since i decided to look into going into banking. I was initially a liberal arts student and I think personality wise, I'm like that. I'm somewhat more of an introvert than an extravert, I'd prefer good conversation with close friends over getting fucked up and partying any day, and I think I place value on different things than the average business student. I'm still not sure what the answer to your question is. Part of me thinks that holding my dignity and being true to myself is more important than getting a job, but another part of me is really fucking competitive and knows that dignity is something I'm going to have to sacrifice at some point down the road anyway..if I want this banking.. so why now start now?
I think if you can be you and be honest to yourself at an interview and do it RIGHT then you're far better off than most everyone else out there. If you don't, however, know how to be yourself, be confident, and make it work, than you're better off being another scripted applicant. To me, that's not impressive and I think I would see right through that. But in the banking world, maybe knowing all the right answers and fitting into their mold perfectly is exactly what they're looking for.
I also think that just like everything else in the world..if you're GOOD you have more leeway. If you're from a target and have high grades and your resume screams FINANCE you're a lot more likely to be able to get away with acting a little nontraditional. The less "banker" your background/resume is though, the more you're going to have to fit their mold by being who you think they want you to be.
Therightcoast
Basically, he told you stfu because you came off as pompous. You sound a lot like the "impossible is nothing" character.
You reminded me of a qoute: “one of those damn do-gooders with their shocked, holier-than-thou silences, their one talent making others feel guilty”
I was about to completely tear this apart but a quick background check reveals that you're a community college dropout currently working security.... so I think I'll be the better man and not say anything.
arguewithatree wrote: But in
But in the banking world, maybe knowing all the right answers and fitting into their mold perfectly is exactly what they're looking for.
Unfortunately, this is what I've continually found to be the case. It sounds like BB's discriminate against anything non-Ivy league/Northeast old money, but the MM I interned at discriminated against anything remotely academic. Somehow in their eyes, a fratty business major that took one finance class would somehow be a better banker, and by extension, more successful at life than some biology major or some history major that became fluent in Chinese but didn't have finance courses available to him at his college. It almost felt like public high school, but high school was 9-3, and if I wanted to take a day off, I just did.
Culcet][quote=arguewithatree
.......
Double post. argh.
deleted.
Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
Culcet wrote: Therightcoast
Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
.
Culcet wrote: [Would I rather
I'm kind of impressed that
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