Career is a trainwreck, what are my options?

Firstly I will preface this by saying that I am in need of some advice and I value any input. It is my dream to work in the trading floor as a trader or structurer.

I am from the UK, I graduated in 2008 with a 4 year maths degree from imperial college. I obtained a first and the degree is basically the same as a BSci plus MSc combined.

Sounds great, but the last two years is where it has gone downhill. I took a gap year with the plan of doing a PhD at the end of it. At the end of the gap year I realised I no longer wanted to pursue a career in academia and since I had missed the grad schemes I looked for work immeadiately. Here is where I screwed up, I didn't plan ahead and missed the grad schemes. I was also going through a personal crisis with my long term girlfriend leaving me.

Anyway I obtain work as a pawn broker and that is fine for 2 months and then disaster strikes and I am involved in a serious accident that leaves me with severe concussion from the resulting head injury. This turned my life upside down and I ended up dropping out from work and becoming a freelance programmer (completing projects online when I was able to). It took me six months to shake off the concussion and then it was July of this year, 1.5 years after I graduated. So I planned to apply to every grad scheme in the UK I could (IB and Asset Management as well as actuarial positions). Recruitment started in september and it is now the end of november. Out of 15 IB applications, mostly for trading/structuring I received only one interview which I found out a couple of days ago I didn't get past. In total I made about 50 applicaitons. I have an assessment centre next month for KPMG to work as a trainee actuary and I am expecting a couple of asset management interviews in jan.

So to summarise, my CV is a trainwreck after I graduated and I turned 26 TODAY and I am worried about my future. My dream of working on a trading floor looks crushed and I feel lowest of the low. To make matters worse, the girl of my dreams that left me started a new relationship this week.

Do I have any chance of getting on the trading floor in a structuring or trading position? I have studied Hull, and am a whizz with statistics, stochastic calculus and probability. I can use Excel to a high standard too. Any advice is appreciated. I'm just hoping I can pass the KPMG AC so then I can at least start my career but knowing my luck I won't get chosen.

Cliff notes: graduated with good degree, mis-planned my career and suffered head injury, now almost no bank will touch me for interviews.

Btw I don't mention the head injury and having to rest for 6 months to recover on my CV I say I have been working as a freelance programmer which is true but it's not 'real work'.

That's my story. Don't mock me too hard. Thanks for reading.

 

GoodBread, there is a Schneiders in London but my understanding is the position is unpaid for the first 6 months. I am happy to work for e.g. 15k per year to get experience but receiving nothing would be tough.

Thanks for the compliment regarding my academics. The two years since then haven't been quite as stellar though! So you don't think my age, turning 26 is going to stop me succeeding?

 

Wow, you're like a living example of the advice my father gave me while I was growing up. A couple of the most repeated phrases my brothers and I heard throughout our childhood: -Girls will ruin your life -Education is the only thing that can't be taken away from you

Anyway, you're far from out of the running. Everyone has obstacles to their candidacy, yours happens to be your timeline, but it's honestly not as bad of a handicap as many other peoples'. The fact that you have such stellar grades from Imperial is still very relevant to employers (and your scores give you a plan-B in that you can fall back on admissions to a reputable grad degree program if necessary).

As for the girl situation, I would try hard not to focus on it. Work on one thing at a time, otherwise you'll fail at both.

“Millionaires don't use astrology, billionaires do”
 
GoodBread:
I doubt prop firms would care about your age that much. I would assume you could rock the math brainteasers at most prop firms so feel free to aim high for places like Optiver and Tibra that actually pay a salary.
Thanks for the tip. Prop firms that pay a salary are my next port of call then. It's great if these firms don't care much about my age and will at least interview me if I pass the tests. Luckily I score highly on logic and numerical tests so I should therefore be in with a shot.
shorttheworld:
ignore the above poster shit happens. i wouldnt eliminate the whole injury thing, its a reason to be out of the game for a bit. have you tthought of any MSC finance programs in europe?
I have thought about doing an MSc in Financial Engineering, or something similar, the main deterrent is the cost. If I did complete such an MSc would that really open more doors for me though in terms of interviews? I would love to hear some opinions on how likely that is. I have also seen a PhD program I like the look of which could lead onto quantitative rolesbut I am hesitant to commit another 3 years to studying because I will have just turned 29 by then.
Nouveau Richie:
Wow, you're like a living example of the advice my father gave me while I was growing up. A couple of the most repeated phrases my brothers and I heard throughout our childhood: -Girls will ruin your life -Education is the only thing that can't be taken away from you

Anyway, you're far from out of the running. Everyone has obstacles to their candidacy, yours happens to be your timeline, but it's honestly not as bad of a handicap as many other peoples'. The fact that you have such stellar grades from Imperial is still very relevant to employers (and your scores give you a plan-B in that you can fall back on admissions to a reputable grad degree program if necessary).

As for the girl situation, I would try hard not to focus on it. Work on one thing at a time, otherwise you'll fail at both.

Thanks. Mine feels more like an obstacle course right now but I will work every day for 6 months if I have to if that's what it takes to turn this around. I hope you're right about my degree still being relevant because I worked so hard over those 4 years to complete it. I just need someone to give me a chance and get a foothold into the industry.

The girl situation sucks but you're right, one thing at a time and my career is my priority.

Walkio:
Definitely stand a chance. Try this:

a) Cold call some firms in London and ask to get unpaid work experience. This will give you the necessary experience to get your foot through the door. b) Sit your CISI exams - this looks good on your CV. c) I know for a fact that Imperial has some amazing alumni in the City - use them. Linkedin is your friend.

Any of these three options should help you get that initial experience.

a) Walkio, what kinds of firms should I cold call? Also, how much unpaid work experience should I aim for? And are there any positions that would use my maths as that is my best selling point or should I aim for just anything, so I can get that valuable experience. Sorry if that's too many questions. b) Interesting idea, I wasn't aware of these exams. I've heard of people getting rejected at interview for not showing enough passion about trading so that would be just what I need to show how committed I am. c) Sorry again for more questions, but how exactly does this work? Search for alumni via Linkedin and simply cold call them saying "Hey, I am an imperial graduate 30 second intro can you help me get some experience?" I'm willing to do it since I want this, but is this sort of thing well practised? You list it as a standard tactic and I haven't heard of it before.
HasAJob:
Glad I'm not you...
Solid first post.

Thank you to everyone who has constructively tried to help me. Besides giving me ideas even more importantly it has given me that extra boost I needed. I've typed quite a lot, but I take my career and it's hopeful resurrection seriously.

Cheers.

 

Definitely stand a chance. Try this:

a) Cold call some firms in London and ask to get unpaid work experience. This will give you the necessary experience to get your foot through the door. b) Sit your CISI exams - this looks good on your CV. c) I know for a fact that Imperial has some amazing alumni in the City - use them. Linkedin is your friend.

Any of these three options should help you get that initial experience.

 
Best Response

As a 25 year old Imperial College Physicist (2:2) I feel some sympathy towards your plight. Treat what I say as advice, which may or may not be correct, and advice given from a standpoint of someone with nothing to gain from slamming you down or buttering you up.

First of all, man up. Read your own story again. You're about to enter one of the most stressful and brutal environments there is on the planet. If you cant handle a rejection, learn from your mistakes or make lemonade from lemons then trading is a BAD career choice that you're only making for the money and the kudos and the confidence it will make you acceptable in social circles.

There are only 2 things that are allowed to get you down. Bereavement and serious illness. Anything else, get your gameface on and convince yourself you didn't want it or how you'll get it back. I wouldn't bet heavily against, IF you get your act together, make it seem like you dont mind the girl leaving the sobstory (which only charities care about) and get on with your own life then she'd come back. Anyway, regarding career.

Here's my advice. There are mega amounts of people out there applying for the same jobs. Everyone and his dog has strong academic yada yada. Thats the staple diet. What will make your CV stand out?

Have stuff on it that stands out? What's more interesting to read: Duke of Edinburgh camping, good academic results and first prize in being good from school, or something really obscure (county table tennis champion after playing for 3 weeks). There's a guy out there (Tim Harris i think), who studied a martial art rule book, found an exception and became the world champion in it after like 3 months of training, being booed out the room as world champ.They changed the rules and what he did is now commonplace. Do something exceptional, crazy and do it well. Also, talents you have but never thought an employer would care about can be awesome. http://www.sig.com/gametheoryapp.aspx (they have lots of vacancies too). Think back to school days. My biggest standout achievements weren't my A levels or Degree results, they were the Maths Olympiad and some schools maths competition.

Understanding the career: Read the following books. Rise and fall of Long Term Capital Management, Liar's Poker, and the last 2 most importantly. Black Swan and fooled by randomness (both by Nicholas Nassim Taleb). You don't need to understand everything about pricings and securities, you'll be taught that. You are there to make money in a zero sum game. They are not hiring you because you look good or are a nice person (but they won't hire a goon).

Have your story covered. I was a ski instructor after uni, went to KPMG (oh the irony), and then off to an algorithmic trading prop firm after a year. You're allowed to have done what you've done but explain it. Be honest. (I discovered my love for trading when I was 5 is OBVIOUS CRAP). Be honest, and present yourself in your best light. Make negatives positives and you're halfway there. Be ready to answer the following questions, i'll put in the pitfalls after each one for you.

Why this firm? We're all the same, we buy and sell the same stuff off the same exchanges, you know nothing about our results or who works there. Prove you aren't applying to everyone, despite us both knowing you are.

Have you applied anywhere else? Yes you have. It shows you make plan b's. I don't care if its not true. Explain why the person sitting in front of you is your first choice, and that if they gave you an offer you'd sign there and then (which you would). Be able to name the other firms you've applied to as well. Being caught as a liar will end you instantly.

Why do you want to become a trader? I dislike the "i've always been interested in financial markets" line. I went for the truth on this one. My answer was: It was a natural fit for my strengths. I have a love and exceptional talent at looking at systems, understanding their strengths and weaknesses and exploiting them (give example - the one I gave was crossing the road using the traffic lights for the cars instead of the green man) . I am very confident with computers and possess the other talents required to be a successful trader - Which ALWAYS prompts the question, Oh so what are they then? (interviewer is now asking the questions you want him to ask).

What makes a succesful trader? I'll leave this up to you. Ultimately I could hold your hand and maybe help you get the job, but I don't do it for close friends because this is really one of those things that if you can't get in yourself, then you shouldn't be doing it. I'm doing you no favours at all and it will further nail your career.

You're in what poker calls a small stack position. YOu're down but not out, a few good hands and you can be the big stack.

If you've got to this point and you're thinking, but I can't do anything special, or I don't do anything mentioned on http://www.sig.com/gametheoryapp.aspx, then the answer, if it wasn't plainly smackfacewithfish obvious is go and learn them. Now.

Don't just aim for the huge we can find on google firms. The best aren't the best advertised (ever seen a Dom Perignon advert? Call up a decent firm, ask to speak to head of HR, and ask for a list of things they'd want to see you prove if you applied. Go and do them and apply citing that. How much more impressive is that than the same application without the backstory?

This is long enough. Rest if up to you.

oh and please man up, it's depressing.

T

 

Hey thanks for the extra comments guys, especially Trazer. There were no more replies for a couple of days so I wasn't expecting this to get bumped.

Trazer I read through your reply more than once, it's inspiring. I have actually made some headway in terms of improving my skillset, I am teaching myself C++ and spending a lot of my spare time brushing up on my advanced statistics. I do have a kind of unique selling point which I will be using, I thought of it before but wasn't sure if it was appropriate but after reading your reply I can see it will be. The difficult part is finding places to apply to, would you recommend ringing them rather than sending speculative applications? I have tried all the IBs and only received 1 interview which I bombed (I was well prepared but I guess the competition was tough and I'm probably not a natural interviewer but I'm improving). Now I am focusing on the prop shops and I am sharpening up my mental maths for the optiver and tibra tests.

Thanks again pal.

 

There are lists everywhere, even on this forum of the top xx prop shops. I'm in/near Amsterdam after a month's stint in Hong Kong, so if you make it over there, then pm me and we can meet up for a coffee/beer/all you can eat pizza hut buffet. If you're a 4 year 2008 leaver then we joined in the same year.

A word about banks. I never applied to any of them and would never want to work for any of them.

Perks: Lots of security and capital, as in lots and lots and lots. Organisational structure, tried and tested training programmes and resources.

Cons: It's client money, so with that comes all the be nice to clients etc. turn up in a suit, professionally dressed, corporate culture (this is a killer for me), and my biggest pet peeve of all time, semi-quoting someone who did very well for themselves in finance - "Banks hire people they should hire, the MBA's the Kappa delta phi cum laude's etc. It's not about who will get the best result, but who, if they screw up, you can defend (e.g. LTCM we have Nobel economists).

I'm so pro meritocracy its hard to listen to anything else. I worked at a Big 4 firm for a year and just couldn't take this "I've worked here for 10 years" any more (not to mentioned the fixed salary forever, so if I stayed I'd know my income for the next 20 years of my life.

Remember the banker bonus tax/everyone hates bankers yarn. Prop firms arent risking client (Read pension)money so its no problem if they fall.

These interviews arent so much looking for people skills but analytical ones. Go through every single logic problem you can find on the internet etc.

 

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