Several of my good friends have moved from NYC to Chicago in the past year. The consensus seems to be that Chicago offers about 90% of NYC at half the cost. And the lifestyle is more laid-back, and people are not as pretentious as manhattan people. In contrast to NYC, in chicago when you talk to people at clubs,bars, and parties, they're not going to immediately ask you where you went to school and what firm you work at, in order to measure you up.
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If it was me, holding 2 offers at the same time for comparable positions, roughly equal comp, in 2 teams I'd be equally pleased to work with, and one is NYC the other is Chicago.... I'd choose Chicago for the higher standard of living (definitely in the material sense, arguably in the social sense as well).
If the 2 positions were different in any way though (position quality, team quality, compensation, firm quality, other personal considerations) then these would outweigh the advantages of being in Chicago vs NYC for me.
my .02
It's completely a preference issue. I'm from Manhattan, spent some time living in Chicago, hated every minute of it, and once I graduate, never intend to live anywhere for any extended period of time other than the island of Manhattan. That said, I understand why people like Chicago better, especially if they're coming from a smaller city- Chicago is a big city but not as "overwhelming" as NYC can be to people that aren't from there originally.
....
Chicago IBD would all be midwest coverage right? So industrials galore
Yeah, industrials galore is right. Make sure you can stand the winters though. It's not a very fun adjustment, especially if you're used to much warmer weather.
^ Truth fact
Some firms also like to boast a FIG presence but it's really just the CME and CBOE...
Midwest is also up an extra hour earlier for S&T.
.....
I like the east coast feel much more than the midwest
I'm from the east coast and it's what I'm used to
My friends who have moved to Chicago all say similar things as the OP.... give me a few months and I can contribute more on this subject since I'm starting my job in Chicago in August/September.
On a similar note though, does anyone know of good buildings in Gold Coast, Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville? Looking to spend like $900-1050/month for a studio...
Check Craigslist for a good idea of what's out there. 1k will get you a pretty decent place in those areas
Chicago is a much more liveable city in terms of cost-of-living, going places (assuming you have a car, which is easier to manage in Chicago), doing things outdoors, and lifestyle in terms of people earning between $20K and $2 milion/year. New York is a better place to live if you're poor or fabulously wealthy, but for someone earning six figures, Chicago, Philly, San Fran, LA, and Boston are all much better places to live. As a Midwesterner, I'd choose Chicago, Milwaukee (M&I, RW Baird), or Minneapolis after I got a few years of experience in, but if you like Boston, Philly, or San Fran, there's hedge funds, banks, trading firms, and private equity firms in every major city and they all need traders, fund managers, risk managers, quants, etc, etc.
You won't earn quite as much money as you would in New York, but at some point,you're going to ask yourself what life is really all about. Most people think life is about more than just money- at least after they're earning a comfortable living (which will happen after a few years)- and if that's the case, there's a good chance you'll want to leave NYC if you didn't grow up there.
Incoming summer interns- particularly if you've never lived in the Northeast south of Vermont/NH- need to understand that New York is a completely different place. The first fifteen minutes of most New Yorkers' conversations when they meet someone is talking about where they went to school, how much they can bench, how prestigious they are, etc. etc. You will need to smile and bite your tongue and realize they're only being jerks in the context of culture outside the Northeast. In New York, this is perfectly natural and acceptable. If you try and strike up a conversation with someone on the street, they will assume that you are either crazy or a panhandler. Drivers are obnoxious. In the Midwest, people honk at you for being a rude driver but smile and put up with you if you are slow or don't know what you're doing; in New York, it is the opposite. After three weeks of living in the city, you will realize that you haven't seen anything living besides rats or people. NYC is a lot more polluted than most cities (besides LA), and the sewer systems will sometimes back up leaving puddles of opaque brownish or tan water at some of the corners. Honking trucks, cars, and ambulances will be coming by your apartment at all hours of the night, and you will have to learn to shut it out. Heading upstate for some fresh air would be great, but that takes a car, and parking and insurance will run you almost as much as your rent, and it will take an hour just to get past the city limits.
You either love New York or you hate it. As I tell my friends and family from Chicago, "I've stopped believing in hell. Why does God need to send people to hell when he can send them to New York?"
Chicago is about 10 degrees colder than NYC in the winter. In NYC, people claim it is REALLY cold when temperatures get below 20 degrees; in Chicago, that doesn't really happen until you get below about 5.After your first year, you will have a car and you'll only have to walk more than three or four blocks through the cold on occasion.
60% of the time it works everytime!
That said, Chicago is not as "prestigious" as New York. The lady economist you meet at a bar might have studied at a community college. If you like prestige and talking about your pedigree, PLEASE STAY IN THE NORTHEAST; YOU WILL BE UNHAPPY IN CHICAGO.
Chicago doesn't always offer quite as much money as New York for a lot of positions. Client sell-side trading, invetment banking, and maybe even investment management offer weaker pay. Basically, anything that involves relationships is less likely to happen in Chicago. That said, you see a lot of trading and consulting going on in Chicago. CBOT-CME-CBOE is also the largest exchange in the world (bigger than all of the exchanges in NYC combined), so you're going to be able to find a lot of market-making firms and prop shops.
My suggestion: Go to NYC for a few years, learn to hate it, and THEN go to Chicago. That's what I'm in the process of doing. Then again, you can go to Boston, Philly, or San Fran/LA, too- I just think Chicago has some strengths in exchange-based trading while the other cities have strengths in investment management.
I just came back from a weekend in Chicago. The people are really nice, the city is spotless-at least in the Loop and the Gold Coast-Hyde Park is a dump (I've never seen any city anywhere of its size as clean as Chicago), it's cheap, and seeing grass is refreshing.
Most every COL calculator I've seen puts Chicago COL at 25% to 40% less than NYC COL. I somehow highly doubt that Chicago pay is 25-40% lower than NYC pay. The COL cut/pay cut differential goes towards a higher standard of living.
Besides, I think biglaw/big consulting/big finance all pay the same lockstep scale in NY as Chicago.
BTW In the 48 hours I've been there I have never taken a single cab. Subway from O'Hare, to hotel, walk everywhere, occasional subway/bus ride as needed, etc etc. Then subway back to O'Hare.
My recommendation is to spend a few years in New York, get some experience relevant to Chicago (trading, risk management, or consulting), and then move there after a few years. If you're experienced, if you're worth $XXXK in NYC, you're worth the same in Chicago. There are probably more exceptions than there are cases that follow the rule, but my view is that overall, your value is generally likely to increase faster in New York than Chicago.
The NYC subway is eons faster than the Chicago subway. If it were cold out, you would have been taking more cabs. :DThat said, Metra, the commuter rail line, is arguably the best in the country with an on-time record exceeding 98% despite all the snow the city gets.
The downtown and areas north of Grant Park and east of the Kennedy are extremely clean- it wasn't always that way, though. South of Grant Park, you get into some shady neighborhoods.
Chicago is NOT NYC. Many of the neighborhoods are still very segregated, the police aren't on every corner, and there are safe neighborhoods and unsafe neighborhoods. Hyde Park is an island in midst of miles and miles of bad neighborhoods.
Is starting pay in Chicago 25-40% lower than starting pay in NY? Yeah there might be some compression in big finance (in biglaw, we get the lockstep non-compressed NY scale) but you're taking a 10-15% paycut probably at most. You're saving 25-40% on CoL. The 10% difference? Goes straight into your pocket. The important metric here isn't the absolute pay drop, it's the pay drop relative to the CoL drop. By that metric, Chicago wins.
That said, biglaw Chicago associates make out like bandits compared to NY or LA. The low cost of living combined with NY scale pay (which is generally SET based on NY CoL) makes for a ridiculously high standard of living and/or a fat bank account.
I still think it's good for many people to spend a few years in NYC immediately after graduation. Chicago isn't a bad place to start, but you often get a lot of experience and often a lot of responsibilities in NYC that would be harder to get elsewhere. The city is hell on earth, IMHO, but if you can survive NYC, you can thrive anywhere else.
Very interesting discussion thus far. First of all, I have a lot of respect for IlliniProgrammer. It seems like much of his disdain for NYC is cultural and social; he grew up in the midwest and went to a Big 10 school, so the materialism and elitism of Manhattan is antithetical to his upbringing and values. I went to an ivy league undergrad and live in Chicago now, and there is a HUGE difference between the people who live here and my classmates who ended up in NYC. The latter is much more ambitious, hard working, and typical prestige whores/strivers. I personally prefer NYC since I care a lot about that type of stuff and generally believe that NYC has more interesting and accomplished people. Chicago is a great city, but I'm tired of being surrounded by typical big 10 grads who only care about sports, are not very accomplished, and don't travel much.
The problem with NYC is that you can't travel even if you wanted to because living there is so bloody expensive. When I travel I like to do it in class (I've never had the money to do it fwiw). Fly business, stay in nice hotels, yadda yadda yadda.
I'd just like someone to try saving up $200k within 3 years for a house, living in a decent apartment a 10 minute walk from work, and splurging on trips every now and then on $200k a year in NYC.
I'm not into the whole prestige thing. The whole thing kinda just sounds like, "okay just put it on the table and measure." Like, who cares? If I wanted to be constantly berated by the schools I went to, I'd go to a HLS reunion. I'm not interested in where you went to school. And I don't care that you got your JD/MBA at Harvard. In a social setting, I want someone I can be really good friends with. In a work setting, I want someone who's competent. At the end of the day, the name on your diploma doesn't automatically imply competence, and at the end of the day, working at Skadden is just a job.
To that 35 year old's credit though, he's 35, maybe he has a family and can't hole up in the library and study all the time. A JD alone will almost literally consume your life.
well, the 35 year old guy came across as a douchebag, so i guess i'm biased here.
i don't look down on people who went to mediocre schools, and i have plenty of friends who are "average" in that regard. but generally speaking, i'm much more likely to have stuff in common with an ambitious guy who went to an ivy and is working in finance than an ohio state grad who doesn't know anything except chicago sports and drinking domestic beer. and in terms of networking and advancing one's career, it's good to be in a city where you can meet a lot of people in your field.
i'm also amused when people bash NYC because it's expensive. what did you expect from a city that has so much wealth? it's sort of akin to students at state schools bashing harvard because it's too "dorky" and has too many "smart" kids.
geez, i wish this discussion could stop here. i go to school in midwest, very close to chicago. whenever i tell new yorkers that which school i go to , the first question they will ask is that, do you hang out with football players alot?? my general impression is that nyc people dont take chicago seriously for anything outside of sports.
yes, it's true. NYC people don't take chicago too seriously. i mean, chicago is nice, but it doesn't attract the same level as talent as NYC does. it's just the way it is.
You're right; there's a huge trend by folks on the coasts not to take the Midwest seriously. That's pretty ironic given that the world's largest exchange operates out of Chicago. In all fairness, Chicagoans don't take downstate IL very seriously either, so kettle, meet pot. (My college roommate from Rockford was always from "downstate" or "southern Illinois" according to Chicagoans who didn't know better.)
I still disagree with the second sentence. There's smart people everywhere, and everyone has their own reasons for going to different places. The only reason to come to NYC over Chicago if you live west of Columbus is if you have a better opportunity in NYC than you do in Chicago. And there are plenty of opportunities in Chicago that rival the best opportunities in NYC.how do ivy league alums react when you tell them you're from illinois and went to U of I?
In finance, there aren't too many opportunities in chicago that rival good ones in NYC. the exceptions are jobs at citadel and getco.
NYC dominates chicago when it comes to banking, hedge funds, private equity.
Maybe, but there's smart people everywhere and everyone has their own reason for taking a job. I know a guy who turned down Goldman for a job in desktop support at Abbott Pharmaceuticals.
Also, you left off Northern Trust, BP Oil Trading, Jump Trading, Sun Trading, Wolverine, Peak 6, Allstate, Aon, and the other insurance companies. Chicago doesn't have a lot of big firms like NYC does, but it has a lot of prop shops that do very well and a lot of other financial firms that are extremely good at what they specialize in.
no offense, but if the guy turned down a goldman front office job for abbott, he made a very bad choice.
Chicago does have better prop shops than NYC. But the best students at top ivy league schools, if given the choice, still take bulge bracket banks and NYC hedge funds over prop shops. Getco is the obvious exception.
There's smart people everywhere, I'm just saying that Chicago is not on the same level as NYC. that's all.
lol. is he related to sarah palin?
Well that's pretty stupid. Why on earth would anyone take Chicago sports seriously? All our teams suck! (except the Hawks of course)
The other thing to remember about NYC, is half the place is full of random dudes from Indianapolis and Cincinnati and Richmond and Baltimore who have declared themselves to be awesome for the sole reason that they now live in New York. I love NY, but that part of it is a little annoying.
....
the sad thing is, notre dame's football has not been relevant since 1988.
geez, i wish the discussion would stop by my last post already. i dont understand whats so cool hanging out with athletes all the time. gimme some variety.
haha, not funny. i said stop it.
Not everyone has the same definition of success I guess. The equivalent you speak of in the legal profession would be going to Harvard Law then working at Wachtell. I know several people you couldn't pay to take a job at Wachtell. Hundreds of people turn down job offers at Wachtell, Cravath, Skadden, Goldman, etc etc etc every year, sometimes for lower paying jobs (god forbid). Doesn't make them any less smart or ambitious.
Why would I want to be in the corporate lawyer underclass in NY when I could be making one of the highest salaries in the city as a corporate lawyer in Chicago? Does it really matter if you're surrounded by wealth? It only drives my cost of living up. There is wealth in Chicago too, only there's less of it and it's more accessible. I don't want to be surrounded by wealth that I can't access. You get the worst of both worlds in NY, in terms of CoL: you make a shit ton of money (hey, $160k-$280k a year is a lot of money to most people) so nobody has any sympathy for you when you're paying $4k for a studio apartment (people just don't truly understand how expensive it is to live in NYC). Chicago is only about a 2 and a half hour plane ride from NY, so if I wanted to go to NY, I can always take a weekender with all of the savings on CoL.
Skadden Chicago does the same work that Skadden NY does, just less of it for the same pay and the same bonus.
I'm not all that much into sports either (in fact, I hate sports), but it's not like everyone outside the northeast corridor is an uncivilized neanderthal. You have more cultured people in NY but you also have more pretentious people in NY.
It really depends on where you want to be. If you're dead set on working in Chicago, networking in NY is going to do you no good whatsoever. I frankly take exception to the idea that New Yorkers are somehow more ambitious than people in the rest of the country, and I LIVE here. The more I live in NY, the more I find it overrated. There's a ton of stuff to do, but you can't enjoy any of it because everything is so damn expensive. CoL is a very important metric-it has a substantial and direct effect on QoL. NY is what it is. It's frankly not my cup of tea.
For law, it's a bit different. A lot of top law firms have offices in chicago, and the starting pay is about the same for both cities. But more importantly, there is less upside in law than finance, so being in NYC will not be financially more rewarding than Chicago (exceptions would be if you make partner at wachtell, cravath, boies schiller, etc.). In finance however, NYC just has a lot more opportunities, which is why it attracts top talent from elite U.S. universities and from all across the world. I understand that you think it's overrated and overpriced, but my guess is you're not making the kind of money that will allow you to live well in the city.
Fair enough. I guess it depends on one's personal circumstances. A bigoil engineer would be best off in Houston, a computer engineer would be best off in Cupertino, a banker would be best off in NY, a commodities trader best off in Chicago, a corporate lawyer frankly anywhere in the country, etc. etc. etc.
illiniprogrammer: like, omg, the midwest deserves mad respect yo! JJC1122: mmm like nooo brah! NYC got the prestige fo sho!!! illiniprogrammer: ooooh but prop shops here are sooo rockin and kick ass duuude! JJC:1122: nooo nooo no! Ivies are all up in the big apple brosky!....um Hey illini, you wanna make out? Illiniprogrammer: Shyeah man let's do it! oh I'm so hot right now!!! JJC1122: oooh yeah...tell me more about the midwest, baby...debating about cities is my biggest fetish Illiniprogrammer: MMM yeah, same here....oh yeah, that feels good.....just keep talkin' smack in that dirty NYC accent....
i cant believe this discussion is still going on
........
Floyd and Crist will be crazy. I can't wait to see what Kelly does with a program like ND. He's used to turning athletic 2 and 3 star recruits into a solid program, he doesn't have to settle in terms of recruiting anymore.
Notre Dame fans will once again be disappointed.
Notre Dame football: irrelevant since 1988
I'm not saying we're going to a top bowl. It'll only be a disappointment if we do not do better than last year. And keep improving each year.
There's been a lot of talk, and meetings, this week with all the heads of the Big 10. Looks like they plan on expanding to 16 before the football season starts. ND may no longer be independent (they kind of have to join if the Big 10 is doing this now). Fwiw, the other teams in talks of joining include some combination of: rutgers, pitt, syracuse, uconn, nebraska, texas, a&M (to get texas), and florida.
Florida?!! As in the Gators? There is absolutely no way that they're leaving the SEC....
Haha I know. Their invite is a rumor (Texas' and Nebraska's isn't). The point of inviting Florida is to avoid any accusations that they are out to destroy any one conference, b/c from the looks of things, they'll destroy at least 1 conference. They're going heavy after the Big East, and potentially the Big 12.
they will definitely add pitt and rutgers, to expand their reach into the east coast market. no way they're getting the big 12 schools.
Actually, and I just read this, it looks like accelerated expansion is off the table, and the original timetable of 12-18 months is back.
They will definitely get Nebraska, because of all the money they are guaranteed if they come. This will entice Texas to move to a more quality conference (the Big 10 wants Texas w/o A&M though, which will be tough to get, considering Texas politics).
Rutgers is a lock, b/c the Big 10 wants to get more NY presence. Rutgers satisfies this w/out compromising academic standards. ND will join b/c of guaranteed $, and out of fear that they'll miss the boat.
NO way they get texas. the big 12 team most likely to join the big 10 is missouri, because of its geographical proximity and the fact that a bunch of their alums end up in chicago. rutgers and pitt will probably join as well along with notre dame. i don't see how this changes the dynamics of the big 10 though. ohio state and iowa will continue to dominate in the next several years and if they get their shit together, michigan will become competitive as well. big east football is a joke; they should not even be a BCS conference as far as i'm concerned. so pitt and rutgers will mainly serve as appetizers for the good big 10 teams.
Uh, Pitt is a good football team. 10-3 team, broke top 10 during the season.
Btw, here's the update (which mentions Texas, Nebraska, and Mizzou as Big 12 targets): http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5119881.
I think you would be surprised to find out how easy it would be to get Nebraska. Many of their fans are pushing for it, too (they really hate Iowa). They really want it, though, because of the Big Ten Network (it has been a huge money maker for everyone). They stand to make more money with the Big 10 than anywhere else. And that's not even going into all the money one gets academically from being in the Big 10 (grants, etc.).
Rumors are Mizzou isn't really being looked at, because of their academics, anyway.
As for Texas, it's all speculation. If the Big 10 snags Nebraska, there's no reason for Texas to ignore the Big 10 money and status (and competition).
There is a 0% chance that Texas will leave the Big 12. If Texas leaves, the Big 12 dies. Sure, it has its rivalries (OSU/OU and Mizzou/Kansas come to mind), but take Texas out and you lose the Texas/OU rivalry and Texas/A&M rivalry. Shit won't fly in Texas.
The death of the Big 12 is actually possible, you know. You think there is a 0% chance that Texas would leave the big 12 if: 1) Nebraska leaves, weakening the conference; and, 2) they stand to make more money in the new Big 10?
That makes no sense. You have to remember, this isn't just about football, this is about all sports and academics (and the money that comes from both). Of course, Texas' rivalries makes this difficult (b/c some old fucks in power in Texas still care about this stuff), which is why it has been stated that the new big 10 might have to take A&M along with Texas.
Again, if Nebraska leaves (which is one of the most likely additions to the Big 10, b/c they WANT to join), that leaves Oklahoma as Texas' only legitimate competitor in sports, in a conference that will never makes as much money academically or athletically. You think Texas politics will keep the Longhorns in such an environment (you may know something I don't)? Their only hope after denying the big 10 is to look west to create another super conference that still wouldn't make as much money, or be as competitive (until baseball season begins).
Texas and OU were in different conferences for decades - that's not a consideration
Jesus christ, not only this post goes on forever, but it became a post of ND football. give me some variety, we dont need so many football players in midwest.
I don't think you understand how important football is to those who live in the state of Texas. Ever heard of Friday Night Lights? That stuff actually happens every week. Football is the lifeblood of the Texas culture, especially in smaller towns. People would go apeshit if some higher ups decided to move Texas to the Big 10.
For the past several years, there has been a huge Big 12 marketing campaign highlighting Big 12 athletics, academics, and overall unity. It wouldn't make sense to do a complete 180 when the football program is already making so much money in the first place. Texas's football program probably receives more donations than the university receives. Will any of that change if Texas moves to the Big 10? No clue. The point I'm trying to make is that money probably isn't a big consideration since funding is not an issue.
Even though the Big 12 Conference is relatively new (created in the early 90s, I believe), I think there is too much in-conference rivalry, particularly among Texas and Oklahoma schools (75% of the kids playing for the Oklahoma teams are from Texas) to make this happen.
You have to remember that it is university presidents, and not AD's, fans, or alumni that are voting on this. They care about their reputation and their money, not whether they can play their rival every year. Penn State gave up many old rivals when joining the big 10. Texas will maximize their TV revenue by joining the big 10 (hell Northwestern makes just as much with their BTN contract as Texas and ND combined).
Also, available to them would be a HUGE research grant called the CIC, which at the moment splits over $5 billion per year between the big 10 schools and university of Chicago. Keep in mind who is in power to make this decision, and that there is more to this than the football schedule (they can still schedule a game w/ OK or A&M anyway). I'm just trying to show you that there is a chance that this happens, not that it will 100% happen.
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